Sixteen years... back to the basics

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by SunVenus, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone.

    We are at the 16th anniversay of this tragedy, and to vent my frustration I have decided to go back to the basics. I am re-reading several books, going over archives on ACandyRose, looking up testimonies of PR, JR, etc. Many things bug me, the same stuff that has been bugging many of us all these years. Some of my bullet points (more to follow, these are just two):

    1) PR's account of that morning (i.e. JR up about 5:30am to shower, she gets up a few minutes later, dresses, does make-up, washes out a jumpsuit of JB, then finds ransom note, reads it, informs JR, runs to JBR's room & BR's rooms, then calls police (which we kow happened at 5:52am)...

    It doesn't fit. Okay, so an appearance-driven, self-obsessed "beauty queen" like PR may not shower... fine. I get that. Busy day, early flight planned, she could have intended to put off showering 'til that afternoon in Charlevoix. If she's innocent of a crime (nd even if she's not) she probably isn't at that "ripe" stage yet in terms of BO. (Or maybe she doesn't care-- after all, JBR was often dressed but unbathed.) Puts on make-up. Natch! She's all about superficial appearances. But ladies-- we all know make-up routines. Even when long-practised, some parts take time. To be fair, PR was probably pretty skilled in piling on the spackle. But I figure her routine (lets guess moisturizer, foundation, blush, eyeshadow, eyeliner, lipstick, mascara, etc.) would take about 5-10 minutes. Let's say she rose at 5:35am, did necessary morning ablutions, then did hair & make-up. Say at 5:45am she is able to wash out JBR's jumpsuit. Another 3 to 5 minutes, right? Say it took 3 minutes. Then say she finds the note at 5:48am. With the screaming, shouting, looking about a bit-- could it really have only been only 4 minutes later that they called the police? I may be reaching, but to me, something feels off. I think that if one finds a note saying "your kid is gone, we are watching you, don't call the cops"... there'd be at least a few moments hesitation before actually calling the police. But not here, no hesitation, and not only did they call the police, but many other people who promptly showed up. Wierd.

    2) The security light on the SE corner of the house, near the solarium (sun room). Neighbour Diane Brumfitt reported that she noticed the light was OFF that night, an unsual situation. So I looked at floor plans of the house (that included directional orientation of the lot), read some testimony, particularly that of John Fernie who said he went to the "normal" entrance he used, the sliding glasss door on the south side of the house. Why would the Ramsey's have that light off, that particular night?

    I don't believe there was an intruder, period, end of sentence. But having that light off could allow a person-- say JR for example-- to go in & out during staging, and perhaps to dispose of an item or two, maybe one that caused the head bash? (The head-blow that could have been the flashlight, it could have been a golf club, or it may be something else that we don't yet know.) But it left a dark area that shielded one from observation and might make the use of a flashlight necessary.

    I have more thoughts, but these are the first two that I've been poking at these past few days. Anyone have any additional thoughts, ideas, corrections, theories? Would like to hear them.
     
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  3. Rashi'sDaughter

    Rashi'sDaughter New Member

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    Let's all renew our energies in this case. I really believe that we ARE making a difference. Call me an optimist, but I think that this case is going somewhere! 16 years later, please God, this case will remain cold no longer.:please:
     
  4. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    There are so many pieces of this puzzle that do not fit. Patsy changed her story for that morning too. That's the important thing in this case- the Rs changed their stories about many things. If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said. A big red flag for me (and a well-known defense attorney tactic when clients are guilty) was that the Rs refused to answer questions that had previously been asked. They also asked for the questions to be submitted in advance in writing, and refused to be questioned separately. All of these are BIG indications that they were hiding their previous lies. I am nit sure which of these outrageous demands were accommodated, but if the BPD didn't raise a stink AH would have just given the defense lawyers what they asked for.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SunVenus,
    One day, probably when JR has left us, some media outfit will revisit this case with a notable documentary, and unless they burn the evidence cage in Boulder that holds most of the evidence, some of it will be released, as so much time has transpired.

    Well one question that remains unaswered is what was a collection of JonBenet's photographs doing down in the basement? From memory nobody has laid claim to ownership yet?

    It was probably the red turtleneck that Patsy washed out, just in case, maybe even the size-6 underwear who knows. Patsy had patently been up all night. I doubt she ever intended to fly off to her vacation wearing yesterday's clothing.

    Who thinks the collection of Photographs belonged to BR, if not who else? And why would they dump them into the basement, can a behavioural pattern be discerned here?


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  6. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    The R's did keep changing their stories. That is the one consistency with them, and you're right-- if you are telling the truth, you don't have to back & fill & make up new lies to cover the previous. The way LE allowed them to skate-- the special priviliges they were given in terms of when to be interviewed, how to be interviewed, etc... well, it just stinks. LE should have separated JR & PR & BR immediately and questioned them at once. One or more would have cracked. So chalk that failure up to LE.

    But as I am looking at all this with "fresh eyes" (or trying to) I will be a bit of a devil's advocate for a moment. In a situation where a child has been murdrered, or in any traumatic crime, events can seem distorted, certainly time loses meaning in some ways. IF PR was innocent in all this, maybe being shaken to the core could attribute to a certain amount of misperception. At least at first. But given that the R's were (and continue to be) treated with kid gloves, given plenty of time to consult with lawyers & one another and so forth, that blows the idea of emotional distress out of the water for me. Yes, there was immediate emotional distress (guilty or not, I don't think the R's were practiced, cold-blooded killers, and didn't have the icey and practiced facade you'd see in a professional hitman for instance) I don't think we can count on anything the R's said as reliable. But if we take inititial R statements as baseline, discount for distress and try to focus on what can be established, still nothing fits.

    I want to begin collecting all of the statements by the PR & JR-- either official, or in interviews, or later in their "pity us" books" and compare them. I expect holes... but I also suspect that in bewteen the holes we might find some strand of dark matter that points at the truth.

    Thank you for your input, this is what I am looking for!
     
  7. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Rashi'sDaughter! Your optimism makes me feel better. :) And I love your signature, wise advice!
     
  8. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Great points!

    Re: the JBR photos in the basement. I'll admit that is a fact I'd not heard after all these years, so before giving an "informed" (or as much as it is possible to be informed in all this) opinion, I will look into it, the circumstances of how they were found, if they were logged into evidence, try to pinpoint just which photos they were, etc. But as an off the cuff response: Maybe it was BR. But knowing what I know of PR and her less-than-perfect housekeeping (and management of housekeeping), it may have just been chucked down there to get it out of the way. By many accounts the R home was disorganised, or only superficially organised, but by yet other accounts, any & all things pertianing to JBR were pretty much enshrined. So I honestly don't know what to think about this. I do appreciate you pointing this out, thanks!
     
  9. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Well, starting with the time they left the party, is shrouded in mystery. What time did they leave? Where did they stop? Did JB fall asleep? What time did they get home? Was a sleeping JB carried to bed? Did she walk? Did she have a story read to her? Dd they all go into the the house and stay? Did BR and JR stay up playing with some toy? Did 1 or both of the kids have a snack? Did a blood curdling scream really wake up a neighbor? What about the scraping noises that her husband heard? Another neighbor reported seeing a bobbing light, while another noticed a light off, that was always turned on. Was anything unusual noticed at the party? BR said that either he or JB was shocked by an electric fence. Was there ever any elaboration? What about a previous 911 call? I've read so many varying accounts, that I'm not sure if there ever was one. Some of PR's friends were reportedly planning a 'mega JB intervention'? Was this ever verified, and if so, exactly what were they concerned with? I read that PR said she wasn't aware of JR's bonus amount? Did he ever comment on this? I still have so many questions.
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SunVenus,
    Your welcome. Patsy was interviewed on this matter and I think it can be found on AcandyRose.com?

    Another related item of interest is that when their out of state residence was searched for similar material, whatever they discovered was redacted. You have to wonder why, since nothing means well zero evidence, something the R's would love to tell us all about.


    So what was found and why the need for redaction? Answers on a postcard to John Ramsey.



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  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    dodie20,
    Columbo would ask JR that last question, "Excuse me sir, but who knew about your bonus?"

    Columbo always knews the answers to the questions he asks, thats why he asks them and in this case its obviously JR.

    It might be that the RN is constructed in such a way it can serve multiple themes on an abduction, i.e. terrorists, abduction for gain, or revenge.

    The latter does not require knowledge of JR's bonus.


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  12. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Dodie, YES! All those questions are bugging me. Last night in particular I was reading about the "metal scraping on cement" noise. It was allegedly reported by Melody Stanton's husband (Melody Stanton was the neighbour who allegedly heard a child's scream about 2:0aam on the morning of the 26th). So I got to thinking... what could make that sound? The grate over the basement window area being moved? But wasn't that "undisturbed" in some report or another? Was it something in the basement area that was moved at the commission of one aspect of the assault & murder, or was it moved during the cover up? (Was there not some piece of metal found somewhere in the basement, leaning up against a wall|? I may be mistaken. What if JBR's body had been hidden elsewhere in the basement, then moved by JR into the wine cellar when he allegedly went down there alone around 10am on the 26th? I dunno, so many scenarios float through my head. :(

    But let us say it was the outside grate by the basement windows. If the south patio door that was a convenient and familar enttrance to the home (as John Fernie stated), would not having that SE corner light off make it hard for a neighbour to see someone moving about on the south side of the house? The basement windows were on the west side of the house however, but I think if reference the floor plan, the sunroom/solarium area just out a bit further into the lot, and a light off there would provide a fairly shadowy, protected area for movement back to that part of the lot.

    *Sigh* I just don't know.
     
  13. midwest mama

    midwest mama Active Member

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    :woohoo: Thanks for starting this thread, SunVenus! There has to be one little thing somewhere that can be gleaned yet that can act as the unraveling of this too complex mystery.

    This forum has a great group of dedicated posters that have no intent of letting this case go up on a dark shelf somewhere only to gather dust. It's too stinky, it's too hinky, and some days it makes me want to take a little drinky! :martini:

    But what would that solve? Instead, lets all keep jotting off our info, our thoughts, our what-ifs, our what-fors, hoping that one day we'll all be making a decision whether or not to go to the trial in person or stayed glued to the TV for updates! :justice:
     
  14. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again! I am going to get on ACandyRose and give that a look-see.

    Quick question: are you referrring to the search at the Charlevoix home, or the Atlanta home? I am losing track of just which homes were searched. (And I also question the thoroughness of the searches, LE was sloppy from the start, and this case was multiplied in complication by out of state searches having to be conducted).

    Jeez... could this case be any more complicated?
     
  15. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Thank you midwest mama--- your post made me giggle and feel hopeful. ;)

    I had lurked here on Websleuths for a loooong time before registering, mainly here in the JBR section. I've seen the efforts you all have pout in on this case and it made me feel the urge to participate, if for no other reason to not feel so alone in my frustration.

    You are correct: if we revist all the facts (and the "unfacts" given by R's and their obfuscation team), if we look again at all the angles and maybe particpate in SuperDave's idea about a letter writing campaign to get this constipated mess of crime pushed through to some sort of resolution-- well, maybe we will all be able to breathe a bit easier.
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SunVenus,
    From memory the Charlevoix search was for Patsy's writing exemplars, and Atlanta was for photogrpahs, dvds or videos of JonBenet?


    Another question requiring answers is why was Susan Stine impersonating Police Chief Mark Beckner?

    She sent emails from becknerbpdhotmail.com suggesting she was connected or affiliated to the JonBenet investigation.

    What was all this about why was there no prosecution, was Susan Stine communicating with the Ramseys explicit authority?

    Another outstanding lacuna in the JonBenet case!


    .
     
  17. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The time they left the White's can be somewhat verified- according to the Rs it was around 9 pm.I am sure the White's would have been questioned about this and given a reasonably correct answer. After that- it is all R's version, so we cannot corroborate much of it. They said they brought along gifts for friends who were not at the White's that day, and made at least 2 stops. The last stop they decided not to take as it was the furthest away and it was getting late. I suppose LE would have questioned the people they claimed to visit- the approximate time, whether JB came into the house or if they saw her awake, etc. We do not have evidence of those questions being asked, but they should have been.
    The Rs claim to have arrived home between 9:30 and 10 PM, which sounds accurate given the time they left the party and made a few stops. At this point, it seems truthful. After that, it is backpedalling and "rearranging" the truth and events of the rest of the night. BR claimed his sister was awake and walked into the house, his parents claim she fell asleep in the car and was carried into the house. The truth is probably that she fell asleep in the car (as kids often do) but woke up when they arrived home and walked in. I believe BR's version rather than his parents, because regardless of his involvement or not, at that point BR would not have understood the necessity of lying about his sister being awake. In his mind (nearly 10 at the time) he just wouldn't be thinking about needing to lie about it and why. We already know his parents later admitted BR actually WAS awake that morning, but decided to say that he had been asleep the whole time because "it was easier and wouldn't be bothered being questioned".
    Now...if your child is kidnapped from her room and murdered and found in a garrote in the basement wouldn't you WANT police to talk to your surviving child whose room was just down the hall? They admit themselves they never talked to him about that night. This offends reason. Just wouldn't happen in real life. One of the many red flags that scream LIE.
    Because they admitted lying about BR being asleep, it isn't too much of a leap to understand that they were also lying about JB being awake.

    As far as the rest of it- the parents tell conflicting stories then, too. JR said he played with a toy with BR. They said JB never woke up, then he said he read to her. They denied knowing about any bedtime snack which was PROVEN to be pineapple and the pineapple was still sitting out on a table.
    The neighbor who heard the scream then claimed she didn't, then later (after she moved out of Boulder) that she did, indeed, hear a scream around midnight (the approx time of death) and her husband claimed to hear the scraping sounds (he described it as "metal scraping concrete" after his wife woke him up when she heard the scream. Not much more is known, not sure how much LE spoke to them or what they thought of it.
    Two different neighbors reported "light events" - one claiming to see the "strange, moving lights" (obviously someone walking with that flashlight) in the R kitchen window (the flashlight was found on a kitchen countertop), the other claiming that the den light was OFF for the first time since the Rs had lived there.
    The previous 911 call, allegedly made at the Rs Christmas party on the 23rd, should have been easy enough to verify- records are kept of such things. Police, in a preview of protocol failure to come, did NOT enter the home, as is standard procedure. No matter WHAT you tell police when they arrive, they still are supposed to enter the home and see for themselves that there is no emergency.
    As for the "Mega-JonBenet" intervention- that was said to have come from one of Patsy's friends, who claimed they were concerned that Patsy was taking the whole pageant thing and JB's incipient superstardom-to-be a bit too far. It was the dying of her hair (blonde highlights, actually) and the alleged use of blue contact in her already-beautiful green eyes that screamed "Enough with this already", as well as the Vegas showgirl costumes. JB was being railroaded into competing for that Miss America crown that Nedra's two daughters had missed. She wasn't about to let JB off the hook for that. If her daughters' ships had sailed, she was making sure her granddaughter had a first-class cabin on that ship.
     
  18. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Thanks, but the previous 911 still bothers me. I've read that it was the Rs friend, (can't remember her name, but she was later referred to as PR's bulldog, or some such), who told the cops that the 911 call was an accident, and there was no emergency. Does anybody believe this? A 911 call from the same house where a murdered child was found, was a misdial? If the call was made, LE needs to investigate it....go back to that night, what led up to the call, every little detail of who said what, who all was there, and interrogate the lady who turned the cops away. I've also read that this lady said FW accidentally made the call. I'm not inclined to believe this, because how do you accidentally dial 911 instead of a regular number? If he was trying to call 411, a comb through of the phone records would verify it, and the 411 would be just a few seconds after the misdial. But, FW, was a grown man, so I can't imagine him hanging up on 911, or refusing to answer when they called back.
     
  19. Anyhoo

    Anyhoo New Member

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    My responses to your post are:

    1. Either the R's never took the ransom note seriously (because they already knew it was a scam) or PR did not finish reading the ransom note before she freaked out and called the police. Once she realized JBR was missing she went into panic mode, stopped reading, and called the police. What Mother of a missing child could stay calm and rational in light of that?

    2. I have always harbored a suspicion about those people who the R's called that morning and who promptly showed up. My suspicion is that those people were already prepared to show up that morning, because they already knew what had happened. They were there to give cover for the R's to the police. Some or all of them are somehow complicit in the crime. I have hinted at my suspicions about this before. This would most certainly include Fleet White.

    3. Why would the security light on the outside of the house be off except to give cover of darkness to one or more people outside of the house? Think about it. If the entirety of this crime happened inside of the house, there would be no reason to disable the security light. If, on the other hand, the security light would allow people outside of the house to be seen by nosy neighbors then there was every reason for the light to be out. They had the light off because other people came to their house late that night, people who were not supposed to be seen, and they were not seen. I am in no way meaning "intruders" when I say this. In any case, this disabled security light is, I feel, one of the important keys to solving this crime.

    4. Related to the above is the wiped down flashlight and batteries. There was no reason to wipe these down of fingerprints if it was just R fingerprints on them. R fingerprints would be expected to be on them. On the other hand, if there were other fingerprints on them from another person (not a R) then there would be every reason to wipe these articles. This is another major key. It is NOT the R's wanting to distance themselves from the crime they committed. It is someone else (not a R) wanting to hide their presence in the house that night.
     
  20. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Cool, that helps. I took a quick look at the serach warrant for the Chrlevoix property, and see the redacted bits on the images of the documents, and the way they are redacted, I cannot figure out what may have been discussed there. Annoying. I'll look further, and look at the serach warrants for the Atlanta proerty too. So many facets, so little time.

    Susan Stine (the pit bull-- no offense to pit bulls) that impersonated Beckner and that whole affair IS another oddity. Why did Stine pull that stunt? Why go to such lengths to "protect" the Ramseys? Why no legal action taken for what is in actuality (impersonating a police officer) a legal offfense? It just gets uglier and uglier.
     
  21. SunVenus

    SunVenus Well-Known Member

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    Great points. And looking back at the history of this case, look how often the stories have been changed on so many of these points. Nothing in this case stays nailed down except for a single, salient, sad point: a child is dead and someone has (so far) gotten away with murder.
     

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