Size 12/14 Bloomies

[UKGuy]

The basic question is: why didn't the redresser take one of JB's many size 6 underpants to replace the other pair? The only reasons I can think of:
-either it was important to for the stager to have 'Wednesday' printed or them.
or
- the stager chose the far too big panties on purpose to lead investigators think that "no parent would dress her child in those big panties", i. e. the attention should be directed to an intruder.

UkGuy, can you think of another reason?


You mean the stager of the scene wanted to make it appear as a wilfully planned death?


Like SD mentioned in one of his posts, while the cord around her neck looks brutal at first glance, the larnyx, tongue and hyoid bone were undamaged.
In addition, the cord wrapped around the stick was obviously a contraption which did not function as a garrote at all.
Therefore to me, it seems that (aside from the vaginal injury and the ligatures around JB's wrists), the cord around the neck was the staging element. Although this may finally have cut JB's respiration of too, it obviously was placed on an unresistent (already unconscious) body.

JonBenet would not have died from the injury inflicted to her vagina either.
UkGuy, you said that one of the Ramseys killed JB. Why do you think was she killed?
And do you have a time line as to the sequence of events on that night?

rashomon,

The basic question is: why didn't the redresser take one of JB's many size 6 underpants to replace the other pair? The only reasons I can think of:

-either it was important to for the stager to have 'Wednesday' printed or them.
or
- the stager chose the far too big panties on purpose to lead investigators think that "no parent would dress her child in those big panties", i. e. the attention should be directed to an intruder.

UkGuy, can you think of another reason?

Remember not to give to much importance to staged evidence, that is until you are certain of its status.

The basic question is: why didn't the redresser take one of JB's many size 6 underpants to replace the other pair? The only reasons I

It would appear Wednesday simply mattered to the redresser?

- the stager chose the far too big panties on purpose to lead investigators think that "no parent would dress her child in those big panties", i. e. the attention should be directed to an intruder.

This is like other similar claims regarding the forensic evidence e.g. flashlight, simply inconsistent with the staging. Why not redress JonBenet in one of Patsy's night-gowns, or any of her adult themed pageant clothes. Why would any intruder care about this apparently trivial aspect, why even bother redressing her?

You should really as a first guess assume the stager selected the size-12 Wednesday underwear by chance, then demonstrate why it was not a random event and that it was important for the redresser.

Another possibility is that the size-12 underwear were not located where Patsy claimed they were. Why should another childs gift be placed in your daughters bedroom anyway?

You mean the stager of the scene wanted to make it appear as a wilfully planned death?

No the stager wanted the staging to appear as if JonBenet had been abducted from her bed. We know it was wilful and planned since we accept it was staged and not simply a consequence of circumstance.

JonBenet was sexually assaulted that night and depending on how you read the evidence, on prior occassions also. All this was hidden, masked via the staging.

If Toilet Rage had been the motivation behind her death then all instances of bedwetting or soiling should have been removed from the house, this was not done. Which suggests it was not this that was being staged away with all the redressing etc.

Now consider this, if JonBenet had wet/soiled the bed, and her underwear then this would have been available as forensic evidence, but it would not have helped you prove just who killed JonBenet, because like the soiled underwear and jeans lying upstairs, they dont tell you anything about her killer!

So her size-6 underwear were removed to prevent any forensic evidence becoming available.

That must really mean semen, although possibly other body fluids too, was Burke not still pre-pubescent, I'll guess he was not producing sperm?

JonBenet was killed to silence her, she was going to talk, she had a secret, a secret that was only allowed public expression at pageants!


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[rashomon]

[UKGuy]You should really as a first guess assume the stager selected the size-12 Wednesday underwear by chance, then demonstrate why it was not a random event and that it was important for the redresser.

Unlike as with the ligatures, we won't be able to demonstrate that it was staged, but we have the demonstration by Jayelles how these size 12 panties looked on JB: way to big for a child of JB's size.
And what are the odds that a parent whose child had a whole drawer full of size 6 panties would randomly grab a size 12 pair? Of course, everything is possible. But some things are less possible imo.

rashomon,
No the stager wanted the staging to appear as if JonBenet had been abducted from her bed.

But then why wasn't JB dressed in her nightgown?

We know it was wilful and planned since we accept it was staged and not simply a consequence of circumstance.

Of course every staging is wilful and planned, and there is no question that the scene in the wine cellar was staged from A to Z, but what interests me is what preceded the staging:
Did one of the parents strike out at JB in rage, and then, after the shocking realization that the child was very severely injured or probably dead from the head bash, desperately tried to stage a scene?
or
Was this in fact a first-degree murder (like in your theory): JonBenet's abuser tried to silence her for good?

JonBenet was killed to silence her, she was going to talk, she had a secret, a secret that was only allowed public expression at pageants!

What exactly do you mean by that? What secret did JB publicly express at pageants? Do you mean her sexualized behavior in those pageants was a clue as to what happened at home - that she was a victim of chronic sexual abuse?

 

[BBB167893]

"No the stager wanted the staging to appear as if JonBenet had been abducted from her bed. We know it was wilful and planned since we accept it was staged and not simply a consequence of circumstance."

Hmm.

"What exactly do you mean by that? What secret did JB publicly express at pageants? Do you mean her sexualized behavior in those pageants was a clue as to what happened at home - that she was a victim of chronic sexual abuse?"

Even John McCann said that behavior was common at pageants, so I don't know about that.

There was something else. A few years ago, Geraldo had a mock trial of the Rs. At one point, they showed a video of JB performing a few days before Christmas dressed as an elf. At one point, she takes a musical instrument and runs it between her legs several times, effectively masturbating in public. It was shocking, to say the least.

 

[UKGuy]

Unlike as with the ligatures, we won't be able to demonstrate that it was staged, but we have the demonstration by Jayelles how these size 12 panties looked on JB: way to big for a child of JB's size.
And what are the odds that a parent whose child had a whole drawer full of size 6 panties would randomly grab a size 12 pair? Of course, everything is possible. But some things are less possible imo.

But then why wasn't JB dressed in her nightgown?

Of course every staging is wilful and planned, and there is no question that the scene in the wine cellar was staged from A to Z, but what interests me is what preceded the staging:
Did one of the parents strike out at JB in rage, and then, after the shocking realization that the child was very severely injured or probably dead from the head bash, desperately tried to stage a scene?
or
Was this in fact a first-degree murder (like in your theory): JonBenet's abuser tried to silence her for good?

What exactly do you mean by that? What secret did JB publicly express at pageants? Do you mean her sexualized behavior in those pageants was a clue as to what happened at home - that she was a victim of chronic sexual abuse?

rashomon,

But then why wasn't JB dressed in her nightgown?

Because its possible rigor-mortis prevented the barbie-gown being placed on her, or/and, the redresser never got round to it.

What exactly do you mean by that? What secret did JB publicly express at pageants? Do you mean her sexualized behavior in those pageants was a clue as to what happened at home - that she was a victim of chronic sexual abuse?

Yes that her sexualized behavior mirrored her domestic behaviour. That she was a victim of chronic sexual abuse helps explain the staging and why she was killed, possibly not the whole motive, but it explains more than other theories do. Anyone can have an accident and they do, but they dont all become meshed up in staging and evidence removal along with episodic amnesia.

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[tumble]

UKGuy:
We know it was wilful and planned since we accept it was staged and not simply a consequence of circumstance

So, if I crash my car into a lamp post and tries to stage it to look like my car was hit by another car we can conclude that I drove into the lamppost in a 'wilful and planned' manner?

 

[UKGuy]

"No the stager wanted the staging to appear as if JonBenet had been abducted from her bed. We know it was wilful and planned since we accept it was staged and not simply a consequence of circumstance."

Hmm.

"What exactly do you mean by that? What secret did JB publicly express at pageants? Do you mean her sexualized behavior in those pageants was a clue as to what happened at home - that she was a victim of chronic sexual abuse?"

Even John McCann said that behavior was common at pageants, so I don't know about that.

There was something else. A few years ago, Geraldo had a mock trial of the Rs. At one point, they showed a video of JB performing a few days before Christmas dressed as an elf. At one point, she takes a musical instrument and runs it between her legs several times, effectively masturbating in public. It was shocking, to say the least.

SuperDave,

Even John McCann said that behavior was common at pageants, so I don't know about that.

Sure but we are not analyzing pageants, the question is not do pageants exhibit sexualized behaviour?, but is did JonBenet exhibit sexualized behaviour? Answer: Yes she did.

In your Geraldo anecdote, was JonBenet performing at a pageant?


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[rashomon]

[SuperDave]
Even John McCann said that [sexualized] behavior was common at pageants

[UKGuy]Sure but we are not analyzing pageants, the question is not do pageants exhibit sexualized behaviour? but is did JonBenet exhibit sexualized behaviour? Answer: Yes she did.

UkGuy:
Dr. McCann was of the opinion that the sexualized behavior which little girls show at beauty pageants would not automatically suggest that all these children are being sexually abused in the physical sense, for this kind of behavior is taught to them by parents especially for the pageants.
But the case of JonBenet was of course different, for Dr. McCann stated the forensic evidence points to chronic sexual abuse. So there is JonBenet's sexualized behavior coupled with the forensic findings.

[SuperDave]There was something else. A few years ago, Geraldo had a mock trial of the Rs. At one point, they showed a video of JB performing a few days before Christmas dressed as an elf. At one point, she takes a musical instrument and runs it between her legs several times, effectively masturbating in public. It was shocking, to say the least.

SuperDave - do I understand this correctly: the trial was a mock trial but the video was a real video which showed JB doing that? For if yes, all doubts in my mind now have been removed as to if she was indeed the victim of chronic sexual abuse: she was. For children don't do that if they haven't experienced vaginal penetration before.
This kind of behavior btw has nothing to do with children's natural curiosity in terms of wanting to explore their genitals by playing 'doctor games'. For vaginal penetration is not common at all in these doctor games (unless someone a good deal older and 'more experienced' is doing that to the child).

This would also clear up another question for me: it has been speculated that JB's chronic vaginal injuries may have been done for 'toilet rage' punishment purposes. I find this hard to believe, for I don't think a parent punishing her child for wetting or soiling accidents would penetrate her vagina - injuring the outer genitals imo would be more consistent with that type of rage.

So if JB in that video actually made those masturbating movements in public (was this at a pageant?), this leaves no doubt in my mind that she had indeed been sexually abused, and would confirm the medical experts' opinion.

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy:
Dr. McCann was of the opinion that the sexualized behavior which little girls show at beauty pageants would not automatically suggest that all these children are being sexually abused in the physical sense, for this kind of behavior is taught to them by parents especially for the pageants.
But the case of JonBenet was of course different, for Dr. McCann stated the forensic evidence points to chronic sexual abuse. So there is JonBenet's sexualized behavior coupled with the forensic findings.

rashomon,

Exactly, either on its own, is questionable, but not significant enough.

Pool the two together, along with the question: Who taught JonBenet, all those adult postures? and it might open a pandora's box.

Just for completenes you can also add her lack of boundaries with regard to her toileting!


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[LI_Mom]

It's also possible that JB woke up & put on the size 12s herself.

As far as I know, most children's underwear is packaged in soft plastic, not hard to rip open & pull out the underwear.

Were all the size 6s are packed for the trip already or did she have any in her drawer?

Remember Thomas said the Pull Ups were hanging half off the shelf... maybe she was going to wear those but decided on the big panties instead? And then she goes downstairs for her pineapple.....



The Ramseys are pressed for time... they have the note to write, fingerprints to wipe and people know they must be waking up around 5:30 am, if they are late waking up, they'll be casting suspicion on themselves for sure. These too big panties are to their advantage anyway, it points to an intruder more than to a loving parent. It works out well in the end.

The size 12s, the pineapple, the flashlight, the Kleenex, the bat.... all these things the Ramseys claim they have NO KNOWLEDGE of. They must produce some hard evidence of an intruder since everything concerning the RN connects directly to the family.



As far as the paint tote. Patsy told Linda to bring it to the basement before Christmas.

If they were upstairs near the kitchen, it seems more likely they would grab a wooden spoon or some other utensil.

I think they headed straight for the basement.


Is there any way to determine WHEN that paintbrush was broken?

As far as the garrote being too complicated to create in a rush. I've always wondered if Burke might have fashioned that garrote one day while he was playing in the basement. Boys loves making toys like that. JB used rope in her pageants, it's very likely Burke had a piece to play with as well. It could have been a completely innocent 'weapon' but one that was subsequently used because it was available.

 

[BBB167893]

"Is there any way to determine WHEN that paintbrush was broken?"

I think it's only possible to tell if the break was fresh or old.

"In your Geraldo anecdote, was JonBenet performing at a pageant?"

No. She was performing for a group of senior citizens.

"the trial was a mock trial but the video was a real video which showed JB doing that?"

yes.

"For if yes, all doubts in my mind now have been removed as to if she was indeed the victim of chronic sexual abuse: she was. For children don't do that if they haven't experienced vaginal penetration before."

The expert who commented on the tape said it was likely a woman who did it.

 

[Eagle1]

Quoting LI Mom, "Were all the size 6s are packed for the trip already or did she have any in her drawer? Remember Thomas said the Pull Ups were hanging half off the shelf... maybe she was going to wear those but decided on the big panties instead? And then she goes downstairs for her pineapple....." hey, that could be it.

As for the expert expressing an opinion that a woman did it, probably they stated that it was just an emotional opinion, like ST's, not too professional in my own emotional opinion, to jump to such a conclusion and express it so early in the game. We've all read enough psychology to know that's pretty unprecedented except in the infamous "Sybil" case. We can't just assume PR or any other mom is like Sybil's mom because we liked the story. Not saying she couldn't have been, of course, just that nobody in this case knows.

 

[BBB167893]

It could be. But that's as far as we've gone so far.

"As for the expert expressing an opinion that a woman did it, probably they stated that it was just an emotional opinion, like ST's, not too professional in my own emotional opinion, to jump to such a conclusion and express it so early in the game. We've all read enough psychology to know that's pretty unprecedented except in the infamous "Sybil" case. We can't just assume PR or any other mom is like Sybil's mom because we liked the story. Not saying she couldn't have been, of course, just that nobody in this case knows."

Well, the expert was Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, wife of Dr. Michael Baden. Perhaps her conclusion that it was a woman was just a gut feeling, as you say, but her contention that JB was being abused is most likely fact.

I don't know what you have against ST, Eagle1. But then, he's no saint in this case. Nobody is. But his motives were laudable, imo. Besides, he had the support of plenty of pros.

As for it being unprecedented, maybe not. We don't really know. Female pedophilia (go with this for a second) is HIGHLY understudied. The FBI now believes that a good number of unsolved homicides were committed by women who got away with it because no one thought a "girl" could kill.

And since I've never SEEN or read the Sybil story, I can hardly be accused of that!

 

[rashomon]

There was something else. A few years ago, Geraldo had a mock trial of the Rs. At one point, they showed a video of JB performing a few days before Christmas dressed as an elf. At one point, she takes a musical instrument and runs it between her legs several times, effectively masturbating in public. It was shocking, to say the least.

SuperDave, I just told another die-hard Ramsey supporter on Courttv about that and she went through the roof. That's what she wrote:

A "best informed poster" said there was such a video so you accept it as fact????? I saw that show and I do NOT remember any such video. IMO IF there was such a video it too would have been shown over and over on TV and it has NOT been.

IMO what is shocking is the sick minds that can dream this stuff up about a little girl AND the sick minds that believe it.

Has anyone else seen the Geraldo mock trial?

And then she went on that she read the autopsy report where it says nothing about sexual abuse. I doubt if she has read what Dr. MCann said.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I saw the mock trial back when it aired, but that was in 1997. I don't remember much detail about it anymore.

I linked her to the Bonita Papers at FFJ with post number for easy reference, so she can read for herself what McCann et al have to say. Watch her dismiss it as "lies", "gossip", and "opinion".

 

[rashomon]

As far as the garrote being too complicated to create in a rush. I've always wondered if Burke might have fashioned that garrote one day while he was playing in the basement. Boys loves making toys like that. JB used rope in her pageants, it's very likely Burke had a piece to play with as well. It could have been a completely innocent 'weapon' but one that was subsequently used because it was available.

But JonBenet's hair was entangled in the cord wrappings around the paintbrush stick, which makes a scenario likely where the garrote contraption was 'newly' constructed. The perp probably tied the knot around her neck first and then wrapped the remaining longer end of the stick around the paintbrush handle.
I don't think that this was too complicated to create in a rush, but could be done very quickly.

 

[tumble]

Good thinking about the handle being pre fabricated.

Am I right about that the sled needed a new cord for the winter? The 'handle' seems perfect for pulling a sled with it.

The mummy wrapping could have been done at the neck.

Edit: Hmm, with the paint tote and the splinters nearby this does not seem plausible... Probably not pre-fabricated. But then again this could explain why a piece was missing. Was the sled located nearby the winecellar?

 

[Camper]

Jayelles, Camper is very interested in knowing how a child that size sitting on the toilet would look in terms of how would their clothing touch the toilet itself. You might be onto something.

--->>>Yeppers Dave, I am behind reading cuz of my trip to DC.

I have visited the modelled pantie pictoral, good work Jayelles.

I have a tiny grand daughter who is now age 8, and beautifully proportioned in size. She wears size 12 dresses.

I have not quizzed her mommy on what size panties she wears.
But I did of course have five daughters of my own.

Where I am coming from on the size 12 Day of the Week panty is that I have NEVER seen them made in anything except fine nylon fabric, possibly silk - huh ?, which adapts nicely in the wrinkle area. Sure there would be a saggy seat to contend with, but.

Cotton or cotton polyester, is quite another matter, bunches up and is unmoveable having a life of its own. Remember those old TV ads, where the guy tries to reach something and WE discover that his UNDERWEAR will not let him, well that is cotton or cotton blend for sure. Jayelles in your model info, what is the fabric content of the modelled bloomies?

A six year old would be full of 'wanting' to be a big girl and could or might have just 'gotten' them herself over her 'wanting' to be a big girl just BECAUSE, or because she and her mom had some disagreement about just what being a BIG girl might include.

Her mom most likely, (I am guessing) focused on the potty/training panties etc. and JonBenet striving to become a BIG girl and getting to the bathroom 'in time', BUT she also focused on (again I am guessing) on the wearing of the same clothing as MOMMY, to the W's party, being a BIG girl like mommy, etc.

My visit with my 3 year old little grand daughter in DC, for two weeks, she was obsessed with being or becoming a BIG girl. She is being very focused on her ability to get to the bathroom 'in time' now. When she does the big #2 on the 'throne', she is rewarded with a piece of a Tootsie pop. This is great motivation, because she is not subjected to BIG candy consumption.

WE have never seen pictures of JonBenet AT the Whites party, boy what I would give to SEE the pictures that LE have or had. Do you think they would still have those pictures in custody, or perhaps copies were made??

I CAN however see, PR putting the BIG PANTIES on JonBenet after death, feeling sorry about what had been done, by WHOMEVER did IT.

.

 

[BBB167893]

"I linked her to the Bonita Papers at FFJ with post number for easy reference, so she can read for herself what McCann et al have to say. Watch her dismiss it as "lies", "gossip", and "opinion"."

What a shock.

"IMO what is shocking is the sick minds that can dream this stuff up about a little girl AND the sick minds that believe it."

Hey, F you, sweetheart! I don't have that kind of imagination!

Okay, folks! Here's the ACTUAL transcript!

Raoul Felder: Do any highlights from the tapes you studied stand out in your mind?

Densen-Gerber: On Dec. 23rd, JonBenet is dressed as a little elf doing a show for senior citizens. She picks up a saxophone and, for the next minute-and-a-half, she masturbates with it.

Judge Katz: What is the significance of that?

Densen-Gerber: That's a sexually stimulated child. At six years old, you're not going to put a saxophone between your legs and rub it back and forth.

Try that.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Holy crap. Thanks, SuperDave. I assume that's the transcript from the mock trial episode.

They seem to think that particular video should be available online with a link to click to get right to it.

And of course, they dismissed the opinion of sexual abuse experts as not being as valid as the opinion of Dr Beuf, who saw her in person. Pshhht.

What's the story with Beuf? How tight was he really with Rams? Does anyone else think he sounds weird?

 

[BBB167893]

"Holy crap. Thanks, SuperDave. I assume that's the transcript from the mock trial episode."

It is.

"They seem to think that particular video should be available online with a link to click to get right to it."

Good luck! I taped it YEARS ago and can't find it! It's like Solomon's Mine around here.

But I should say one thing: Eagle1 was part right: Dr. Densen-Gerber DID base her belief in a woman being the abuser on little more than a gut feeling. But that said, it doesn't change what was on that tape.

"And of course, they dismissed the opinion of sexual abuse experts as not being as valid as the opinion of Dr Beuf, who saw her in person. Pshhht."

You mean her pediatrician who admitted he never did an internal exam and hadn't seen her in, what was it?-three months?

"What's the story with Beuf? How tight was he really with Rams? Does anyone else think he sounds weird?"

I do. I said that his close friendship with them made him less professional. It's called "conflict of interest." HOTYH didn't think much of that. I didn't expect he would, but that's okay, because I don't think much of it myself. To me, that whether it did or not is ULTIMATELY less important than the fact that he hadn't examined her for a long time.