Size 12/14 Bloomies

Camper said:
PagingDrDetect.

WEdon't know that JonBenet didn't do any tugging 'that' night.

Possibly since Patsy lost the battle of the matching shirts, she gave in to the BIG GIRL panties.

Jayelles gave excellent pics of the overage size differential, and the packaging. I have asked a number of times about the MATERIAL the panties were made of.

Remember OJ attorney, and the GLOVES? Attorney put rubber gloves on OJ then he was supposed to put on the crime scene leather glove. Quilting women, sewing women, people who know what happens when you DO that, those gloves are NOT going to go on the hands easily or EVER.

When my little girls were small the ONLY way you could purchase day of the week panties, the Material was a nylon or silky smooth blend NOT COTTON. My little girl 'J' called the material "Swanky". Fabric that is 'swanky' easily adapts to enclosed areas, with minimized flattened wrinkles.

Fact is that the entirety of 'UNKNOWN TRUTHS' of this case have yet to be revealed to us all. We all speculate with the information that WE know from the visual media, the Ramseys mouths, TV, and literature.

Someone tell me again, was the remainder of the bloomie package on the list of evidence removed from the home initially ?, it seems that it was not by way of the PagingDrDetect post here, huh, er?
They're either cotton or a cotton/polyester blend... no silky stuff. Besides, unless they were swabbed with superglue on the inside or made of cast iron the bloody things are ENORMOUS and would have bunched up in her pants and come right off with the pants when the pants were removed. LOOK at the darn things! She could have filled them with water and swam in them!

Did you read all the comments in those threads? Part of that experiment was putting pants on over them and seeing what happened when the pants were pulled off.

If OJ had worn slinky silky "swanky" gloves of the same thickness as the rubber gloves, he would have gone to jail because they gloves he was pretending didn't fit would have slid right on. My mom used to make me wear slinky socks with my rubber boots when I was a kid for that reason... she wouldn't have to dislocate my knees to wrestle my boots off. The rubber gloves OJ was made to wear were stupid because the material of rubber causes other materials to stick to them... that's the nature of rubber. Why do you think women wear rubber gloves to wash dishes? It's not just to save the precious skin on their hands, it's to hold onto a slippery dish.

Ever worn rubber clothes? Unfortunately, as an entertainer I've had to wear some pretty bizzare stuff like that. A rubber get-up I had to wear once was one of the most emabarrassing experiences of my life... nice big audience, cool plexiglass stage - and I STUCK to it like GLUE! Mortifying.

There's no way JBR would have chosen to wear those ridiculous panties. She had the nicest of clothes and cared about how she looked. She and Patsy even had an altercation that night about what outfit she would wear. And there's no way Patsy would have let her wear them either. We know how Patsy was about appearances (she said in her book she would never go out with out full make-up), she had the best clothes money can buy, and we KNOW she trotted out her daughter like a mini fashion plate.

Nope, they never found the package of the rest of the size 12 bloomies... they went over that in the first interview. Patsy had no explanation. The rest of those panties didn't show up until the Ramsey investigators turned them in to BDA claiming they found them among boxes of JBR's belongings in the Ramsey's Atlanta house years later. Can you say OBSTRUCTION?
 
The size-12's are patently staging, its disengenuous to argue otherwise.

Whats of more interest is just why they should have been selected?

There were plenty clean pairs of size-6 underwear available.

My guess is that the stager assumed or knew for a fact that someone else e.g. a White, knew that JonBenet wore a Wednesday pair of underwear, or that any pair would do as long as it was underwear. the intent was to have her wearing underwear.

But another question is did JonBenet normally wear underwear to bed, since she occassionally wet the bed?

I'll assume not, so why was she being dressed in underwear, and then later the Ramsey's state she was taken from her bed, imo this does not add up?


.
 
UKGuy said:
The size-12's are patently staging, its disengenuous to argue otherwise.

Whats of more interest is just why they should have been selected?

There were plenty clean pairs of size-6 underwear available.

My guess is that the stager assumed or knew for a fact that someone else e.g. a White, knew that JonBenet wore a Wednesday pair of underwear, or that any pair would do as long as it was underwear. the intent was to have her wearing underwear.

But another question is did JonBenet normally wear underwear to bed, since she occassionally wet the bed?

I'll assume not, so why was she being dressed in underwear, and then later the Ramsey's state she was taken from her bed, imo this does not add up?
I still think the original idea to use the monster panties was because they were pristine... no Ramsey DNA on them. Then logically the Wednesday pair was selected to make it appear that those were the panties that she normally wore that day (and in case someone at the White's who may have helped her in the bathroom might have noticed they were Wednesday panties). I don't think they anticipated just how HUGE they'd be. But, I also think that the staging done in the basement was done by flashlight so as not to alert the neighbors that there was someone in the basement, so it could have been that they couldn't see so well to know just how bizarre they looked. It also may be that it was JR who did the re-dressing, so PR didn't even know herself how strange they looked... after all, it was HIS shirt fibers found "down there" but Patsy's were found everywhere else.

Patsy said in her interviews that she was trying to train JBR to go through the night without the pull-ups. She said she thought that because the pull-ups didn't let the child feel the wetness that going without them might make JBR wake up if she started to go in her bed and felt the wetness. Personally, I think she was rushing JBR through the process before she was ready... she was anxious for her to stop messing her bed. In all of her interviews, Patsy is clearly uncomfortable about discussing the toileting issue and really plays it down... I think it really embarrassed her, and I get the sense that she took it personally that it was happening.
 
Oh yes indeed, I have read the comments previously in which it was NOT covered as to what the fibre content of the 'Bloomies' was.

Having had 8 children of my own, I have been there done that as far as little children are concerned, now working on 17 grandchildren, I have as you say been around.

Here is another point of mine for you all to deal with.

IF IF PR wrote the note, which I do believe she either wrote it from scratch or redid the note -that someone else had written- and added some extra familiar family comments to it as part of the staging. Not too much thinking involved in that, just re copy to protect 'someone'. There were enough pages missing from the legal pad to support my thoughts.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I kept a legal pad at all times to log activities for my children, business contacts, daily things on the pad, when a page was full, I flipped it over and kept the pages attached for ready reference.

Rarely did I ever tear a page off, once in a while I did, but never masses of pages. When the pad was full, I reviewed messages and copied over ones still needed on a BRAND NEW LEGAL pad.

IF IF Patsy found someone abusing JonBenet or discovered the situation upon getting up at midnight ORaround 1 AM, to do a bed check, and IF IF she found JonBenet dead at that time AND found the note, and in the hours following she cleaned up JonBenet, dressed her with care and GOT the BIG GIRL panties, thinking that whomever had abused JonBenet previously as in -eroded hymen/incest in the family dictionary/911 call of the 23rd - Patsy may have in her major distress thought that JonBenet had BECOME a BIG GIRL, and put the panties on her baby because JonBenet had earned the title of BIG GIRL in the worst nightmare possible.

IF IF this is what happened 'that' night, then around 3 hours elapsed BEFORE the police were called. Plenty of time to do the cleaning, staging, writing etc.

.
 
Jayelles said:
Here's something new and factual. There has been much speculation about the size 12/14 panties that Jonbenet was wearing. Patsy had been in new York and had visited the department store Bloomingdales there. She bought some of Bloomingdales' day of the week knickers there in size 4/6 for Jonbenet and size 12/14 for her niece. Somehow along the line, Jonbenet ended up wearing the size 12/14 knickers when she died and investigators asked numerous questions about this.

Well I have purchased the exact same Bloomies in size 4/6 and size 12/14 and here is a comparison of the two for size.

My youngest daughter is six and a half years and she is almost exactly the same weight and height as Jonbenet was when she died. The Bloomies are generously cut and the size 4/6 didn't fit her until this year.

Here are the dimensions of the knickers:-

Size 4/6 - 8.5 inches from waistband to bottom of crotch and waistband measures 17 inches unstretched.

Size 12/14 - 12 inches from waistband to crotch and waistband measures 22 inches unstretched.

The most noticeable difference in size to my mind is the leg openings. The height of the leg openeing in the larger knickers is almost as big as the entire smaller knickers. When I tried to imagine Jonbenet wearing the larger knickers, I had always thought of them slipping down off her waist. In fact, what is more likely is that the crotch would have been very "gapey" and the crotch would have hung down practically to her knees. The legs of the knickers are so wide that her crotch would have been very exposed IMO

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I've posted my thoughts about the panties before and I'm sorry to bore those who have been here awhile with it again but for the sake of the host of returnees and newcomers here I go again. I think JonBenet put those size 12/14s on herself when she was dressing to go to the White's party and she had them still on when she went to bed that night and was re-dressed in them by the killers.

I know what Jayelles is saying about them being far too big and bulky and therefore uncomfortable as well as likely to fall down and I'm sure she is absolutely correct on all those points. On the uncomfortable issue, don't we all know that if a child has a reason to do so, even if that reason is entirely lost on adults, they will wear the most uncomfortable clothes if they want to eg left shoe on right foot, right on left, woolly sweaters midsummer, and Tshirts in winter. It is my belief that JonBenet had a good reason to wear those panties and that is because they were stored in her bedroom cupboard. Never mind that Patsy said in her interview that she was sure they were in the bathroom drawer, that is neither here nor there. I think that in the aftermath of that "little tiff" between Patsy and JonBenet in the bathroom over the red sweater, JonBenet retreated to her bedroom to get ready for the party. I think as she was dressing she realised the panties she had been wearing all day were soiled and she needed to get a clean pair. Rather than go back to the bathroom where all her size 6 panties were stored and having to be confronted again by Patsy who was angrily 'balling' the red sweater and probably a lot more besides, JonBenet chose to get a pair out of her bedroom cupboard, even if they were the wrong size and had all the concomitant problems that Jayelles points out. Others have posted how nasty Patsy could get when she wasn't getting her own way and I think she could also get really nasty at JonBenet (in private, of course). I think the panties would not have fallen down because they were held up by the black tights and the bulkiness would not have shown because she wore a black dress over the top.

So what would be interesting to know is where did BPD find the opened packet of size 12/14s? Was it in the bedroom? Surely there is a record of that somewhere? And was Patsy ever questioned about what JonBenet was wearing under the longjohns that she put on her when she tucked her into bed? I can't find it in any of the interviews and if they really didn't ask her I find it absolutely incredible. Also the clothes JonBenet wore during the day must have been dumped somewhere as she got dressed for the party. I know there were some jeans and soiled panties found on the bathroom floor, but they didn't necessarily have to be the clothes she wore that day, they could have been there for however many days it was since Linda H-P was last there. I would like to know what previously worn clothes were found in her bedroom. I don't think that was made clear in the interviews, although maybe it was and I just missed it. If anyone has read to the end of this lengthy post and knows where it was they will point it out to me, thanks.
 
I don't think BPD found the packet of size 12 panties, minus one pair.

From what I remember reading PR turned the remaining size 12s in to BPD after they had moved to Atlanta.
She said she found them when she unpacked the boxes that were in JB's room.

So they were supposedly in the drawer with the size 6
panties, but they ended up in Atlanta. Just another strange thing isn't it?
 
aussiesheila said:
I've posted my thoughts about the panties before and I'm sorry to bore those who have been here awhile with it again but for the sake of the host of returnees and newcomers here I go again. I think JonBenet put those size 12/14s on herself when she was dressing to go to the White's party and she had them still on when she went to bed that night and was re-dressed in them by the killers.

I know what Jayelles is saying about them being far too big and bulky and therefore uncomfortable as well as likely to fall down and I'm sure she is absolutely correct on all those points. On the uncomfortable issue, don't we all know that if a child has a reason to do so, even if that reason is entirely lost on adults, they will wear the most uncomfortable clothes if they want to eg left shoe on right foot, right on left, woolly sweaters midsummer, and Tshirts in winter. It is my belief that JonBenet had a good reason to wear those panties and that is because they were stored in her bedroom cupboard. Never mind that Patsy said in her interview that she was sure they were in the bathroom drawer, that is neither here nor there. I think that in the aftermath of that "little tiff" between Patsy and JonBenet in the bathroom over the red sweater, JonBenet retreated to her bedroom to get ready for the party. I think as she was dressing she realised the panties she had been wearing all day were soiled and she needed to get a clean pair. Rather than go back to the bathroom where all her size 6 panties were stored and having to be confronted again by Patsy who was angrily 'balling' the red sweater and probably a lot more besides, JonBenet chose to get a pair out of her bedroom cupboard, even if they were the wrong size and had all the concomitant problems that Jayelles points out. Others have posted how nasty Patsy could get when she wasn't getting her own way and I think she could also get really nasty at JonBenet (in private, of course). I think the panties would not have fallen down because they were held up by the black tights and the bulkiness would not have shown because she wore a black dress over the top.

So what would be interesting to know is where did BPD find the opened packet of size 12/14s? Was it in the bedroom? Surely there is a record of that somewhere? And was Patsy ever questioned about what JonBenet was wearing under the longjohns that she put on her when she tucked her into bed? I can't find it in any of the interviews and if they really didn't ask her I find it absolutely incredible. Also the clothes JonBenet wore during the day must have been dumped somewhere as she got dressed for the party. I know there were some jeans and soiled panties found on the bathroom floor, but they didn't necessarily have to be the clothes she wore that day, they could have been there for however many days it was since Linda H-P was last there. I would like to know what previously worn clothes were found in her bedroom. I don't think that was made clear in the interviews, although maybe it was and I just missed it. If anyone has read to the end of this lengthy post and knows where it was they will point it out to me, thanks.
~~~~
I am not trying to correct your post, I'm just confused.
Please tell me if my memory is wrong...


I thought JBR wore black velvet pants to the White's party/dinner, which PR said came from the GAP and were bought to match the white top w/ black trim that JBR, (after the argument with her mom over the top), also chose to wear to the White's.
I thought the remaining pack of size 12 bloomies were never found by the BPD, but were indeed asked for by LE. I thought that a package w/ bloomies like the size 12's were given to LE by the R's much, much later (like maybe 6 months later ????) when the R's said they had found them in cleaning or something. (which could have been the actual remaining size 12's from the original package or could have been a newly purchased substitute pack). :confused:

I would love to know the answers to all the questions you posed too! If only all transcripts of all interviews were published (Burke's included!) I think we would have a better idea of what really happened.
 
angelwngs said:
In the list of items taken from the house it was listed that "7 pairs of children's size panties were removed by LE". Were these additional to or including the pair of size 12's found on JBR's body? What size were these panties and if they were not size 12's why did they take 7 pairs? Were those 7 pairs the total contents found in JBR's underware drawer?
They took more panties on subsequent searches. In the transcript they say they took 15 from JBR's panty drawer... all of which were size 4/6. Obviously, they would have found the mombo panties interesting, and would therefore want to take them into evidence... but they couldn't find any panties of JBR's that were not size 4/6. Seeing as the pair that JBR was found wearing said "Wednesday" on them, they would assume there would be 6 other size 12/14 panties that had the other days of the week printed on them... they couldn't find any. Like us, I think they would have found that interesting... and telling.

From Patsy's 2000 Interview:

11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?25 A. I would say more like six to
0094

1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.
5 MR. KANE: Okay.
6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mrs. Ramsey,
22 have you ever seen a crime scene photo of
23 the underwear that your daughter was found
24 in?
25 A. No.
0095

1 Q. Did Lou Schmidt ever show you a
2 photo?
3 A. No.
4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I want to follow
5 up with something you said earlier. You
6 said she would have just gone in and gotten
7 a pair herself?
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 Q. Okay. Was she -- did she usually
10 dress herself?
11 A. She was pretty much able to dress
12 herself.

If you read through the transcript they're trying to find out what if the rest of the day of the week size 12/14 panties would have been in the house. The fact that they're asking reveals that they were not found in the house and they don't know what happened to them. There's much interuption and argueing among the attorneys, so I didn't include all that. You can read the whole transcript here...

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm
 
LaMer said:
PDD, I agree, they are absolutely the theads to read. Great sleuthing going on over yonder! Jayelles is to be commended! :) Top Notch detective work! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Absolutely. I was very impressed with Jayelles experiment, and she documents everything so well. It had to have taken a lot of time and attention. Very top-notch. No question she did a really incredible job with that.
 
Thank you PDD,

I had already read the entire transcript but forgotten the total number taken in that particular interview.

A list of items taken from the house that I found several days ago listed 7 pairs of children's size underware taken from the house. So they must have gotten more on a later search.

Thank you for your reply to my questions!
 
aussiesheila said:
I've posted my thoughts about the panties before and I'm sorry to bore those who have been here awhile with it again but for the sake of the host of returnees and newcomers here I go again. I think JonBenet put those size 12/14s on herself when she was dressing to go to the White's party and she had them still on when she went to bed that night and was re-dressed in them by the killers.

I know what Jayelles is saying about them being far too big and bulky and therefore uncomfortable as well as likely to fall down and I'm sure she is absolutely correct on all those points. On the uncomfortable issue, don't we all know that if a child has a reason to do so, even if that reason is entirely lost on adults, they will wear the most uncomfortable clothes if they want to eg left shoe on right foot, right on left, woolly sweaters midsummer, and Tshirts in winter. It is my belief that JonBenet had a good reason to wear those panties and that is because they were stored in her bedroom cupboard. Never mind that Patsy said in her interview that she was sure they were in the bathroom drawer, that is neither here nor there. I think that in the aftermath of that "little tiff" between Patsy and JonBenet in the bathroom over the red sweater, JonBenet retreated to her bedroom to get ready for the party. I think as she was dressing she realised the panties she had been wearing all day were soiled and she needed to get a clean pair. Rather than go back to the bathroom where all her size 6 panties were stored and having to be confronted again by Patsy who was angrily 'balling' the red sweater and probably a lot more besides, JonBenet chose to get a pair out of her bedroom cupboard, even if they were the wrong size and had all the concomitant problems that Jayelles points out. Others have posted how nasty Patsy could get when she wasn't getting her own way and I think she could also get really nasty at JonBenet (in private, of course). I think the panties would not have fallen down because they were held up by the black tights and the bulkiness would not have shown because she wore a black dress over the top.

So what would be interesting to know is where did BPD find the opened packet of size 12/14s? Was it in the bedroom? Surely there is a record of that somewhere? And was Patsy ever questioned about what JonBenet was wearing under the longjohns that she put on her when she tucked her into bed? I can't find it in any of the interviews and if they really didn't ask her I find it absolutely incredible. Also the clothes JonBenet wore during the day must have been dumped somewhere as she got dressed for the party. I know there were some jeans and soiled panties found on the bathroom floor, but they didn't necessarily have to be the clothes she wore that day, they could have been there for however many days it was since Linda H-P was last there. I would like to know what previously worn clothes were found in her bedroom. I don't think that was made clear in the interviews, although maybe it was and I just missed it. If anyone has read to the end of this lengthy post and knows where it was they will point it out to me, thanks.
The drawer where JBR's panties were kept was IN her bathroom... not in her bedroom. The family had nifty bathrooms with built in drawers and cubards where clothing was kept. Most likely the majority of each person's clothing in the house was kept in their bedrooms, but it seemed as they kept their underclothes in the built-in drawers/cubards in their own bathrooms. Both Patsy and the housekeeper said that the package of size 12/14 bloomies was in JBR's BATHROOM drawer where all her panties were normally kept.

I don't think that JBR chose to wear them herself. Her appearance was important to her, and she even remarked at the White's party that she didn't "feel pretty". I think it's safe to say that Patsy instilled the importance of appearance and attractiveness into her daughter as she is that way herself and with all the pagents and everything that entailed (haircoloring, nail polish, make-up, photo shoots, etc.).

I don't believe that Patsy would have allowed her to wear such outrageous panties especially in that they were going out. JBR was always dressed to the nine's whenever she was in public. Patsy would want her to look perfect out in public at a function (the party). since Patsy and JBR had an altercation about what JBR would wear to the party, and the top that Patsy wanted JBR to wear was found on the bathroom counter, I do believe that Patsy was present when JBR dressed herself despite what she seems to claim in her interviews (which is still up in their air because she changed her story several times on that). Patsy DID indicate that she was present when JBR got dressed as she said that when JBR supposedly selected the giant panties to wear she stated "WE decided to just go with them". I absolutely do not buy that at all... Patsy was fastidious about appearance and clothing and extended that to her daughter.

LE did not find the remaining 6 day of the week panties in size 12/14 in any of their searches and asked Patsy about that in the 2000 interview. Those remaining six panties were turned over by the Ramsey investigators to BDA claiming they were found in the boxed up belongings of JBR in the RAmsey's Atlanta residence. I believe they turned them over because they KNEW they were evidence, and I don't believe they were the actual package of the remaining six panties that was in the Ramsey Boulder house that night. That package of the six remaining panties went missing on the night of the murder for a REASON and were eventually turned in to make the Ramsey's appear innocent.

The ridiculousness of the out-sized panties combined with Patsy's statements being all over the map about them when she was questioned combined with what was known about Patsy and her fastidious fashion and general appearance habits combined with the fact that they couldn't be found in the house and were turned over (or a DIFFERENT package was turned over) to BDA much later is telling.
 
gsquared said:
What happened to the size 6 Wednesday panties?
Apparently, they took a disappearing act. We don't even know if there ever WERE any size 6 "Wednesday" bloomies. For all we know, JBR wore any one of her regular panties to the White's and when she was killed. The huge panties are staging, but they don't tell us anything at all about what panties JBR REALLY wore that night. Patsy claims that JBR wore the size 12/14's that night and there never were any others, which is clearly BS. JBR did NOT wear those ridiculously enormous panties to the White's that night and all we need to know about arriving at that decision is because the remaining six huge panties went missing.
 
Camper said:
Here is another point of mine for you all to deal with.

IF IF PR wrote the note, which I do believe she either wrote it from scratch or redid the note -that someone else had written- and added some extra familiar family comments to it as part of the staging. Not too much thinking involved in that, just re copy to protect 'someone'. There were enough pages missing from the legal pad to support my thoughts.

IF IF Patsy found someone abusing JonBenet or discovered the situation upon getting up at midnight ORaround 1 AM, to do a bed check, and IF IF she found JonBenet dead at that time AND found the note, and in the hours following she cleaned up JonBenet, dressed her with care and GOT the BIG GIRL panties, thinking that whomever had abused JonBenet previously as in -eroded hymen/incest in the family dictionary/911 call of the 23rd - Patsy may have in her major distress thought that JonBenet had BECOME a BIG GIRL, and put the panties on her baby because JonBenet had earned the title of BIG GIRL in the worst nightmare possible.

IF IF this is what happened 'that' night, then around 3 hours elapsed BEFORE the police were called. Plenty of time to do the cleaning, staging, writing etc.
Camper, I don't think you're that far off what happened...
 
PagingDrDetect said:
The ridiculousness of the out-sized panties combined with Patsy's statements being all over the map about them when she was questioned combined with what was known about Patsy and her fastidious fashion and general appearance habits combined with the fact that they couldn't be found in the house and were turned over (or a DIFFERENT package was turned over) to BDA much later is telling.
I agree. I think the panties that the Ramseys turned in eventually were from a different package. For all we know the police may have found DNA on this package of panties that was different from the DNA found on the original pair of size12-14 panities thus believing that the DNA was from the killer when in fact the 2 sets of DNA may have been from the different people who packaged the 2 different sets of panites where they were manufactured (if that makes sense).
 
I just realized something interesting about those giant panties after re-reading some of the interview transcripts. Something caught my eye that I didn't notice before. In John Ramsey's 1998 interview with Lou Smit and Mike Kane, Smit says this...

13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.

There were presents found in the basement that were apparently meant for Christmas gifts to be exchanged when they went to Michigan and for other people to be sent out before they left. Patsy had stated that she was trying to get together presents to be sent out to other people before they left on their trip and that she did that in the basement. Some of those presents were in the room where JBR was found. Patsy also in her interviews had said that she bought the size 12/14 bloomies as a Christmas gift for her niece, Jenny, and apparently, that was a present to be sent out before they left on their trip... so it stands to reason that the package of the large panties would be in the basement in a package ment to be sent to Jenny.

I always thought it odd that the size 12/14 panties would ever have been put into JBR's panty drawer. Patsy also said that she couldn't remember whether or not she bought a package of the bloomies in size 12/14 for Jenny ONLY or if she ALSO bought a package of 4/6 ones for JBR. I think she did buy both.

The housekeeper remembers seeing a package of the bloomies in JBR's panty drawer, but I think those were the size 4/6 ones meant for JBR, and the size 12/14 package was in the basement in a package ready to be sent to Jenny for Christmas. Patsy was the one who was wrapping the gifts in the basement and would have known that the size 12/14 bloomies were there. That's why I think Smit brought up the fact that one or more of the presents in the basement were partially opened. I think part of the reason to use the size 12/14 panties was because they were there in the basement where the staging took place.

It's important that Patsy not state that there were two packages of bloomies and one of them was in JBR's drawer because an intruder wanting to put a different pair of panties on JBR would not have used panties that came out of a present in the basement... an intruder would have no idea that childrens panties were in a wrapped package in the basement. Only PATSY knew there was childrens panties in a wrapped present in the basement.

Smit doesn't say that those presents were partially wrapped, he says they were partially OPENED. No one puts wrapping paper on a package that isn't already closed up, so these presents weren't just partially wrapped... they were wrapped and then partially unwrapped and partially OPENED to get something out.

I think the reason that Patsy "doesn't remember" whether or not she bought two packages of the panties because if she said she remembered buying one package for JBR and one for her older niece, Jenny, it would be deduced by LE that what the housekeeper saw in the JBR's panty drawer were the size 4/6 panties purchased for JBR and the size 12/14 panties came out of one of those presents in the basement... pointing right at Patsy. Patsy was the only one who knew for certain where those size 12/14 bloomies were, and I think they were in the basement in one of those partially opened presents Smit mentioned.
 
I bet those panties were in the gift packages in the basement - great sleuthng PDD.

It was months later that PR turned in the sz 12 panties to the BPD. Was that an unopened package, or was there a Wed. pair missing? I bet she bought a new pkg. and it was not opened.

How can anyone not see the lies and deviousness of these people. Pointing to their friends, and other innocent people. Some people will do anything out of desperation it seems.
 
Darlene733510 said:
I bet those panties were in the gift packages in the basement - great sleuthng PDD.

It was months later that PR turned in the sz 12 panties to the BPD. Was that an unopened package, or was there a Wed. pair missing? I bet she bought a new pkg. and it was not opened.

How can anyone not see the lies and deviousness of these people. Pointing to their friends, and other innocent people. Some people will do anything out of desperation it seems.

Hi Darlene, Your quote about people doing things out of desperation reminded me of a shrink that was on the radio and she was talking about sociopaths. She said she would ask her patients questions to see how they would answer them. One question was : A womans mother dies and she has a big funeral, there she meets the man of her dreams. Two weeks later her her sister dies. How did she die? See what answer you come up with. Answer will be in next post.
 
packerdog said:
Hi Darlene, Your quote about people doing things out of desperation reminded me of a shrink that was on the radio and she was talking about sociopaths. She said she would ask her patients questions to see how they would answer them. One question was : A womans mother dies and she has a big funeral, there she meets the man of her dreams. Two weeks later her her sister dies. How did she die? See what answer you come up with. Answer will be in next post.


The woman murdered her sister so she could have another funeral and she could see the man of her dreams again. Sociopath!
 

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