Skull fracture question

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by lovebites, Jun 19, 2007.

  1. lovebites

    lovebites New Member

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    I keep looking at the photos of JonBenet's skull that are provided on acandyrose and I find it really difficult to get a feel for the orientation of it. Without being able to see the eye sockets and nose, or occipital bone, I can't tell if the images are from the side, from above or what. Does anyone know if there is a better diagram of her full skull w/fracture that makes the injury's location more clear.
    Thank you.
     
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  3. armywife210

    armywife210 Active Member

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    I am looking for the autopsy diagram that I had seen before somewhere (or atleast I thought I did) but I cant seem to find it tonight. I found one, but it doesn't appear to be official, or in any way accurate. By the photo and the autopsy report it appears as though it ran from the mid eyebrow area all the way back... how far back I am not sure. But in the the far back of the top running down it is wider, as though that was the area that was struck by something. I will keep searching but I hope this clears it up a little in the mean time.
     
  4. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Hi Lovebites, It is extremely difficult to tell what is going on from the autopsy photos. But this is a great subject and one of our posters BOESP is very interested in it also. I believe the injury (the rectangular injury) starts right above the left ear and goes on from there to the bridge of her nose. There are different theories on this whether it was two hits, whether it was a flashlight that did it, whether she was thrown and the injury ensued (something which Steve Thomas believes and I do) HOWEVER, there is information out there that says this kind of injury is only possible with BLUNT TRAUMA, a flashlight or some other weapon.

    So hopefully this will start a very interesting thread.
     
  5. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Hi Solace, yes I am very interested. I am trying to determine what type action and/or instrument might cause the depression and whether the 8.5 inch fracture was the result of one or two blows or strikes. It appears more likely two simultaneous (or nearly so) incidents are needed to create a fracture running that length.

    Perhaps something also might have concurrently put pressure on the skull to cause a fracture as described in the autopsy, such as a relatively heavier object falling on top of the body/head, or some such similar incident.

    The depression measures 1.75 x .75 inches and lies at the mid-line occipital region (which is very near the back of the skull) and off to the right of center. The fracture then runs on the right side from that depression to the front for approximately 8.5 inches, traveling across the curved surface of the skull.

    Also, the autopsy report seems to suggest there is a large area of blood coagulation on the top, right, front portion of the cranium, as shown when the pathologist reflected the scalp to see what lie beneath it. How did that coagulated blood get at that location if the strike occurred several inches to the rear of the coagulation?

    Photos and/or the autopsy report can be found at http://www.realsundancekid.com/ in the "photo" section, and at http://www.thesmokinggun.com/ in their archives (search for the word JonBenet and autopsy for several in-line links). I'm sure there are other sites too. WARNING: the links contain graphic materials.

    I apologize for the length of this post.

    TIA.
     
  6. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Actually, the rectangular injury starts at the right side of the back of the head. The force was so powerful that it caused a linear fracture that extended to the occipital bone.
     
  7. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    The occipital bone is at the back of the head so I don't understand what you mean??? :blushing:
     
  8. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Oops...:blushing: I meant to say orbital.
     
  9. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Thanks! I understand now. :D

    From a physics standpoint, that length of a fracture, originating from the stated point on the back of the head, would likely need some assistance. I'm familiar with the cracking egg-shell theory but it just doesn't seem to fit. Hit an egg with the head of a ten-penny nail and you get a similar depression but not a similar fracture. (It's a messy experiment! :)) There is more damage than what one might expect with a single striking blow to the back of the head.

    It just seems unlikely to me that the force of an object that created a 1.75 x .75 inch depression would likely cause a linear fracture that length, traveling a curved path, without assistance of some kind.

    Also, how would it explain the coagulated blood found on the top, right cranium?
     
  10. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    This is going to be interesting. So she is hit on the right side of her head. I don't know where I got left from. I really wish we had a 3D picture of the skull so we could turn it around and look at it.
     
  11. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    I know what you mean about the 3D picture. It is hard to use spatial thinking and read an autopsy at the same time. :eek:

    The contact point, best I can tell by reading, thinking, and looking at photos, her head was struck at the rear of the head at the midline of the occipital bone near where it adjoins the parietal section of the skull. So, if we assume she was struck a blow from another human holding a weapon, did the striker stand to the left, the right, or dead-center behind JonBenet? Or, did JonBenet make contact with an immovable, sturdy object? Was she pushed or shoved? Did she and somebody trip and fall? Or, was she manhandled into the bathroom as suggested by Steve Thomas, landing on something in the bathroom? Did it happen in the bathroom? the basement? somewhere else in the home? :waitasec:

    Lots and lots of choices here. Studying that head wound can answer lots of questions.
     
  12. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Addition/clarification: the hemorrhage also surrounds the depressed area as well as extending to the front and it measures 7 x 4 inches.
     
  13. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    What has always baffled me is that this horrific injury did not damage JonBenet's outer scalp.
     
  14. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Boy, you said it! If she had been struck a blow with a weapon, it would increase the likelihood of cutting the scalp. If it was some type combination blow, for example, her head hitting an immovable object with a rounded edge or with a protrusion, it might not.

    A dull force blow caused from JonBenet striking something instead of something striking her would dissipate the energy of the blow more efficiently than being struck by a weapon. The striking method would concentrate the energy released more than a dull blow and surely would have cut the scalp. The fracture is also a sign of the energy released at the time of the injury.

    Regardless, there is a scientific reason her scalp was not externally lacerated. :waitasec:
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    BOESP,

    One of the most important features of her head injury is that it is a depressed fracture, these are extremely rare in children, so rare one book I have: the Handbook of Fractures, 3rd Edition in its section titled Pediatric Fractures and Dislocations has no entry for a head injury.

    Since her death was a trauma death here is the respective entry:
    Another book I have Guide To Forensic Pathology Jay Dix, offers this excerpt on head injuries

    Which giving some consideration to the contusions on JonBenet's head (internally, and externally) and face might suggest she was hit more than once? See C. and D. below.

    Coroner Meyer states:
    comminuted fracture - bone is broken or splintered into pieces.


    Guide To Forensic Pathology Jay Dix:
    Again for those that want to consider if JonBenet fell, ran into, or was pushed, etc here is classification of those injury types
    It appears JonBenet was struck from behind with a blunt instrument, she may have been lying down, and more than one blow may have been rendered, her head injury is severe and is usually found at vehicle road accidents, it is exremely rare for this type of head injury to be presented at ER.


    .
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,

    Guide To Forensic Pathology by Jay Dix, offers:
    So was JonBenet wearing something on her head, did her killer place something e.g. a pillow over her head, prior to bludgeoning her?


    .
     
  17. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I wonder that,too.What if she was hit with an object,like the flashlight,and then(according to what seems to be a thumbprint on her neck,if it is indeed one) pushed into the edge of something,compounding the fracture? and all of this occurs in a matter of moments?
    or what if she was struck w the flashlight,or some similar object (could the golf clubs the JR wanted back so badly figure in here?),but her head was cushioned by a pillow? and then if she was in her bed,her head slammed against the headboard?Patsy did ask if there was blood on the curtains,and there was blood on her pillow,apparently.
    thing is...IF it was indeed JB that was heard screaming..did it come from the basement,and was she killed there instead of in her room? how would that factor in?
     
  18. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    I believe that she was hit more than once too....and your question about someone placing a pillow or something over her head, makes sense, when you think of the lack of a laceration. (This to me, would also indicate a parent, just as wrapping her "lovingly" in a blanket would).
     
  19. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    I believe that she was shoved into something hard...like the side of the bathtub...or even the toilet, and then later she was hit again to "mask"...the first initial "bathroom blow".
     
  20. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    or to make sure she was dead?
    and if it was Patsy that did it,I think she did indeed fool herself into thinking it was all just an accident.
     
  21. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    I don't know about her making sure that she was dead, or not...because IMO...she thought that JB was already dead after the "bathroom blow", because of the convulsions and unconsciousness....and IMO...there is no way that she could have NOT had those two things. I do believe though....as you said...that she convinced herself that it was all just an accident.
     

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