Snapping Turtle vs Human bites

Discussion in 'West Memphis III' started by news247, Feb 1, 2013.

  1. news247

    news247 New Member

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    Is anyone around who knows right off hand if there is information from the defense (in pictures or documents) that compare the analysis of the bite marks on the boys from the original trial to the results that new/different experts determined?

    Also - there was reference to 'pig' hair found - were there supposedly pig bites also (?)

    Just wondering if anyone knows - I know i can go search callahans - but am involved in a discussion with someone about the bites, and wanted to find the info more quickly than i can search it out right now.

    TIA if anyone has any links :)
     
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  3. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I am confused by another thing (i am always confused by defence theories :waitasec: lol)

    On October 29, 2007 papers were filed in federal court by Damien Echols' defense lawyers seeking a retrial or his immediate release from prison. The filing cited DNA evidence linking Terry Hobbs (stepfather of one of the victims) to the crime scene, and new statements from Hobbs' now ex-wife. Also presented in the filing was new expert testimony that the alleged knife marks on the victims were the result of animal predation after the bodies had been dumped. This included the injuries to Byers' genitals.[4][45]

    but

    in PL 2,Brent Turvey explains to Stidham that those marks were indeed caused by a knife and that it was done(even how it was probably done) outta anger (probably wants to discount the thrill kill idea,pointing at punishment gone bad)....still,the defence expert agrees here that CB was hurt down there with a knife
     
  4. Cappuccino

    Cappuccino Well-Known Member

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    Brent Turvey is not a forensic pathologist and not qualified to diagnose whether wounds were inflicted with a knife. Personally I don't remember him doing anything as definite as diagnosing anyway, (although I'm willing to be proven wrong if you can link me to it). He just seems to have accepted the word of the Medical Examiner about Christopher's injuries, and advised the defense to consult a forensic odontologist about the possiblilty of human bite marks.
     
  5. Cappuccino

    Cappuccino Well-Known Member

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    @news247 - I assume your debate is over at this stage, but if I'd seen your post in time I would have advised you to read through the various forensic pathologists' testimony at the Misskelley/Baldwin Rule 37 hearings. Dr Janice Ophoven is the one I would pay most attention to, as she is the only doctor on either side whose specialty is paediatric forensic pathology.
     
  6. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I am not an expert but there must be a big difference between marks left when someone's p#$%^is CUT OFF (cause this is what castration means,no?a piece cut off,not just some cuts on it or around it ) and marks left by animals (which are probably bite marks).....
    don't tell me experts can't figure it out but it's annoying how both sides(pros and def) are interpreting it to fit their theory....
     
  7. Cappuccino

    Cappuccino Well-Known Member

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    Christopher Byers wasn't castrated, he was degloved. It might be better to read the forensic pathologists' own testimony, rather than my interpretation of it.
     
  8. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I will.
    Too much misinformation on so many sites about this case.
     
  9. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    didn't the prosecution claim at some point that the mark on SB's face was left by a belt buckle?
    did they(or the defence) ever do any tests to see whether it matches the marks found on CB's behind?
     
  10. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I understand why the defence tried to prove it's a bite mark (easy to call some experts who claim it doesn't match the defendants)
    I would have sticked to the 'it's a belt buckle' scenario though cause this would have pointed to an angry parent (still does)
     
  11. news247

    news247 New Member

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    thanks! will go back and read that - i thought the defense had new experts on this issue also though, or am i wrong?

    haha, they can hire me - i now know all about the turtles who live in w. memphis and how they feed and lure their dinner :) i can never get those hours back :(
     
  12. news247

    news247 New Member

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    arguhhhh! now Ophoven is talking about dogs and rodents - where did the turtle stuff come from? and nothing that she saw indicated any knife wounds? and the one little boy didn't bleed out (b/c she saw signs of livor), and he didn't drown - so ... what? he just laid there waiting for the dogs and rats to kill him?

    this case just drives me crazy :)
     
  13. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    Turvey was quite definitive about the castration and degloving being done with a knife in his statements starting at 33:52 in this copy of PL2:

    [video=youtube;7mh3g1joFKk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mh3g1joFKk[/video]

    While at least from what I've seen Turvey didn't have any notable qualifications beyond his degrees, if what the autopsy photos show is anything close to what he described in PL2 then it seems highly unlikely that he was simply misinterpreting animal predation.
     
  14. Wescott

    Wescott New Member

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    You can read the autopsy reports at http://callahan.8k.com and the defense press conference is on youtube which has their experts giving their opions on the degloving. Starts in part 3:

    [video=youtube;ln1Ci1k-IsE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln1Ci1k-IsE[/video]

    I have followed this case for probably about sixteen years and I am still not as knowledgable as some of the members here but imo Callahans is the site to go to to get the best info. All three PL movies are interesting to watch and if you get a chance watch West of Memphis.

     
  15. hello people

    hello people New Member

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    I don't know why we all can't agree

    There were ferocious snapping turtle wounds as well as knifeage

    How do you spell knifeage?

    k n i f A ge?

    or

    k n i f e A g e?

    It's a noodle scratcher
     
  16. Compassionate Reader

    Compassionate Reader New Member

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    I've been told that there is a very graphic scene in West of Memphis that demonstrates how the turtle bites were made. Unfortunately, the movie hasn't been released as widely as it could have. Since it's a documentary, some venues (especially in smaller towns) are not going to pick it up. Eventually, however, it will be available on DVD. If you can see it, do so. I believe it will clear up many questions.
     
  17. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    There's a bit in the movie where a guy who handles turtiles lets one bite his arm and they show one atuopsy photo with comprable lacerations, and some footage of turttles chewing on pig carcusus, It didn't rightly prove anything more than a turttle might have came by and made that one btemark though.

    It certainly didn't explain the wounds which supporters agreeing were from a seraded blade when they were trying to connect the wounds to Byers' knife, nor demonstae an alternate explantation for the perported human bite mark which is actually consistant with the Lake Knife. There's also some footage in West of Memphis of it being argued in court that other wounds are considsant with the Lake Knife, but they don't show the autopsy photos clearly enough to confirm as much.
     
  18. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    FWIW, the theory about turtle bites is one part of this case I've never been able to believe. Growing up in the rural midwest, I spent a lot of time around creeks and rivers usually swimming and fishing. The habitat surrounding the crime scene wasn't the type to have snapping turtles.

    The area where the boys were found was more what we always referred to as a branch or watershed - too small and shallow to be considered a real creek, and probably dry or nearly dry at certain times of the year. In all my years, I never saw a snapping turtle in a branch or watershed that small. They're just not large or deep enough on a regular basis to attract any kind of fish or other aquatic life, let alone a rather large snapping turtle.

    Sure there were probably small snakes and box turtles in the area, maybe some tadpoles and frogs, but not snapping turtles, or at least not the midwestern types. We usually saw them in larger creeks and along riverbanks - areas where fish and other aquatic critters were abundant and where the banks were soft, muddy, gravelly and /or sandy. Snapping turtles like to burrow in mud or sand along the banks. A tiny, shallow branch with high, hard dirt walls just doesn't seem like a place where snappers would hang out.

    The large canal that the branch flowed into may have had some snapping turtles living in it, but it seems pretty unlikely (IMHO) they would have traveled up that little stream to feed on the kids when they had plenty of food in the canal. But in all my years fishing and playing in the woods, I never, ever saw a snapping turtle in a small stream like that.

    Just my .02.

    ETA: I also never believed there was much chance for other animal predation. The time between their disappearance and discovery was too short, and the woods nearby interrupted too often during the search, for any other animals to sniff out, approach and begin any substantial feeding on the bodies.
     
  19. kyleb

    kyleb New Member

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    Good points Betty, and also there's the issue that there was no substantial feeding on the bodies. While only a small portion of Christopher Byers was missing, and a part which supporters agreed was removed with knife when they were pointing the finger at Christopher's father. And on a related note, the knife people had suggested Mark Byers fits the description Misskelley gave in his many confessions of the knife Baldwin used on Christopher Byers. For example sake, from Misskelley's first confession:

    And note how Detective Ridge suggests "Just one piece", but Misskelley corrects him saying "Just a fold up knife." So much for Misskelley simply repeating what the police told him to say.

    Given the above, the people claiming animal predation are going to have to show the relevant autopsy photos along with comparable examples of known animal predation before I put any stock in their claims. Absent that, it seems far more likely that the the mutilation of Christopher Byers was done with a folding blade around six inches long, by Jason Baldwin, just like Misskelley said in his many confessions.
     
  20. Compassionate Reader

    Compassionate Reader New Member

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    Maybe it wasn't an adult alligator snapping turtle that attacked the bodies.

    I found this:

    "hatchlings and juveniles usually live in small streams"

    at http://www.arkive.org/alligator-snapping-turtle/macrochelys-temminckii/

    Sorry, but "the people claiming animal predation" are certified forensic pathologists who have years of experience examining bodies and photos of animal predation. These experts have not definitively said that the animal predation was alligator snapping turtles or any specific animal. One expert (Sptiz) speculated that the attacks were by canines (dogs or coyotes or wolves, maybe). The fact is that the experts have only testified that the wounds were animal predation, not knife wounds. Beyond that is nothing but speculation, but the experts were clear that no knife was involved.
     
  21. Compassionate Reader

    Compassionate Reader New Member

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    Jessie wasn't correcting him. He was describing a knife that is most typically carried. Most people don't carry around a hunting knife.
     

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