Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Steely, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Has this subject already been covered? If so, I apologize and please give me the link. Thanks.

    Did JB wear socks or tights on Christmas Day?

    Did she have them on when she was allegedly put to bed?

    Were the last pair of socks/tights she wore ever found? If so, where?
    Were they in the dirty clothes, in her bed, on the floor, laundry room?
    Were they tested for DNA?
    Or are they missing?

    Did JB usually wear socks to bed in the winter? Some kids like to sleep with socks on in the winter.(This was Colorado in December...did the Ramsey home have in-floor heating? How warm did they keep their home?)

    Was "lint" really found on her feet?
    If so, could it have been there because the perp removed her socks/tights?
    Could the reason no semen was found be that the perp used one of her socks to catch his semen?
    Could the other sock have been used to "wipe her down"?

    Socks with evidence could have been hidden in a pocket or in the perp's socks or underwear and removed from the scene and disposed of elsewhere... (If intruder...kept as a souvenir?)
    One sock with evidence could have been rolled up and put into the other sock, or the parts with evidence balled up inside of one of the socks with a clean section on the outer surface to help contain that evidence and prevent it from being deposited on the perp during transport.

    What about slippers?
    The Ramseys were reportedly very concerned with cleanliness.
    Did the Ramseys wear street shoes in their home or did they leave them near the door when they came inside with them all wet and snowy in the winter? Did they wear snow boots usually when they went out and keep shoes or slippers to change into by the door?

    Where were the shoes and/or snow boots JB wore earlier in the day found?
    By the door? In her room? By her bed? In her closet?
    What did the Ramseys say they did with her shoes when they allegedly carried her in? Were they asked about her socks/tights?

    Did JB usually wear slippers when she was in the house?
    What kind were they? What type of sole? Where did she keep them?
    Would she have slipped slippers on if she walked to get a snack (pineapple) in the kitchen?
    Did she have slippers? Where were her slippers found?
    Were her slippers tested for DNA evidence?
     
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  3. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    There's a lot here that we simply have no way of knowing, but I believe JB had bare feet when she was found. I don't know how much difference it might make to test the shoes/boots she wore earlier in the day, but there it would be a good idea to have tested the shoes, socks or tights she wore to the White's.
    JR said that he was the one who pulled off JB's shoes, and according to him, "left the rest for Patsy to take care of".
    Most kids stay barefoot if they get out of bed to get a snack or go to the bathroom, as far as my own experience. Putting on slippers for that is more of an adult thing. Kids just don't worry about being barefoot. No mention was ever made of slippers in this case, as far as being tested or ever worn by JB.
    Dark fibers were found to have been in the area where she was wiped down. Most little girls' socks are white or light colored, but tights could be any color. However, kids' tights are polyester or nylon, and that fabric doesn't really shed. I can't imagine that every single microscopic sperm was caught in a child's sock. There was absolutely no semen found on JB. There WAS semen found on a comforter that was in a suitcase in the basement. That semen was sources to JAR.
     
  4. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    Lots of good questions in this, thanks Steely. I've never read anything that pertained to her socks and now I have to wonder why. Did the BPD miss another chance at getting good, solid evidence? We know she did not have socks on when found, as DeeDee said and it has been noted that her feet were dirty. But when a child's mother cannot recall her last bath, dirty feet does not surprise me at all.
     
  5. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    I read somewhere, that LE did have tights on the Items they took into evidence. Also, I think the house was water heated and JBR room supposedly stayed very warm.

    Umm Steely, you really need to look at the crime scene photos, the R's were not that clean. At least, not in their living space. The show rooms, the ones visitors saw, they were spotless.
     
  6. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    Oh and Steely, Becks right, good post. Thank you
     
  7. Steely

    Steely New Member

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  8. Steely

    Steely New Member

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  9. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12271996.htm
    12-27-1996 Search Warrant Page 5:

    black tights (41BAB)

    12-27-1996 Search Warrant Page 6:

    black and white tights (56BAB)
    black tights (62BAB)


    BR owned multiple pairs of tights..multiple pairs of BLACK tights. Could a pair she owned or been wearing been used by the perp? To "catch" DNA and/or to wipe blood from her?

    Were there any SOCKS (belonging to JB and other people in the home) taken as evidence or to test for fibers matching those found at the crime scene?
     
  10. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    My answers/questions are in blue. Not sure if I did this right. Sorry, if I didn't! Thanks for discussing this with me.
     
  11. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Thanks. I read that too...that her feet were dirty and I also read that someone thought it had been said it might be lint? Unfortunately, I didn't make note where I read that. Anyone else remember reading that? If her feet were dirty she still could have been wearing socks or tights...and even if she'd recently had a bath she could have gotten them dirty and then put tights or socks (same or new) back on. I think ALL the socks, tights and slippers in the house should have been collected and examined. If another family member was down there... there could have been evidence on THEIR socks or tights. What did PR wear on her feet that day? Nylons? Socks? Tights? Also, tights and socks and slippers could have left fiber evidence at the scene. Curious there isn't more about this, that I have found anyway. Mother cannot recall?... or won't tell? Dirty feet doesn't surprise me at all either. But it makes me curious...
     
  12. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Thanks for the post, Agatha! I posted links to the tights before reading this. Thanks, you are right! I didn't know that about the water heated...was that in the flooring? I did read where JR said the basement got really warm and they'd open the window sometimes. Was there a boiler down there? I would have thought the basement would be cold in the winter in Colorado. Didn't JR also say they slept with their bedroom window cracked open sometimes even in the winter? Which would make you think their house was really warm. But if that is the case, why did PR say she put JB in long underwear? Do we know the brand?

    I have looked at the crime scene photos. I'm not sure which ones you are talking about. I know the basement wasn't clean by any means. But a lot of people neglect their basements. Maybe I haven't seen all the photos. What areas do you mean?

    I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. I have my own ideas about this case but I like to try to look at all the possible scenarios. I just think a BAREFOOT victim warrants careful analysis of what was last on her feet and where, when and by whom it was removed and where it ended up. LE did collect tights...did they consider socks and/or slippers? Especially with the basement obviously not very clean and the possibility of forensic evidence on footwear...I think it warranted looking at everyone's feet and all possible footwear in that house. Didn't JR take a shower? His feet would have been clean. What about his socks and/or slippers? Did LE question them? Did they search for and examine these items? Collect all of them to test for fibers?

    How many people put on their make-up but wear yesterday's clothes BEFORE they go to make coffee when they are going to be flying? Did PR usually wear a robe when making coffee? Would a housekeeper know? Did a housekeeper usually make the coffee when they were there? Were PR's socks, shoes, nylons or whatever she had on her feet examined/tested? Are any of the family members' socks, slippers or other footwear on the evidence list? Who would want to walk down to that basement barefoot? So many questions. So few answers.
     
  13. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    Steely, you bring up so many good questions, it's hard to know where to start looking for the answers. One thing though, and of course this is jmo, if Patsy told LE she had on tights that night, they should have turned that house upside down looking for SOCKS! If the tights info came from her or John, I'm not buying it, she had to have had on socks. Anyway, she wore pants to the White's, it's quite possible that in that cold weather, she had on both tights and socks!
     
  14. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    I believe it was black tights JonBenet wore under her pants. She also wore little black boots, but I don't see them listed in the search warrant.

    There was dirt and lint found under her feet. I would assume the lint came from her tights.

    If JonBenet were wearing tights, then the fibers from the tights should have been found on JonBenet's panties.
     
  15. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Thanks, joeskidbeck. I agree with you! They should have turned that house upside down! I can't find socks listed at all on the evidence list on the "a candy rose" website...her's or anyone else's. Is this list complete? Do we know for sure? I found shoes, doesn't say who's... but no socks at all!

    Where can you find what she was wearing at the party and who said it? I've missed that. Are there photos? What was the temperature that day in Boulder? I know there is snow on the ground in the crime scene photos.

    Yes! YES! Yes! She could have worn socks over tights...especially if her tights were expensive cotton ones (which trust me, can leave a lot of lint) and/or her boots were not insulated well, or her boots were big, or if she was going to have to take her boots off at the door at the party and run around in her nice tights. If the floors were wood and slippery she could have worn non-skid socks over the tights. (Hanna Andersson makes these in black and did at that time, I believe.) She could have worn socks over the tights and taken them off and put just the socks back on. If this happened right away there could be "lint" from the tights on her feet but she could have had socks over that with possibly more fibers deposited on her feet from the socks and the socks could have been been used by the perp to remove evidence or simply been removed because they HAD evidence and then easily removed from the scene. Her boots should have been taken into evidence, were they? What kind were they? How big? Did she take slippers or shoes to change into at the party? Some people in snow country expect guests to remove boots at the door... was this the custom with the Ramseys? With their friends?
     
  16. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Thanks for the info, Toltec. These "little black boots" were these snow boots? or dress boots? or does anyone know? Did she wear snow boots out of the house and change into dress boots at the party? PR was very concerned with appearances...would she want JB wearing snow boots in the house at a party? Would she want her to wear dress boots to play in the snow? I think there may have been two sets of boots and both should have been collected as possible evidence. Boots can be lined with dark fibers or have dark fiber evidence left in them from another source (tights, socks, leggings etc.) Some boots have dark WOOL linings.

    JB might have been wearing shoes or boots also when she was murdered, we just don't know for sure, do we? Why was so little footwear evidence collected? Why wasn't footwear evidence collected from everyone in that home and anyone who may have been in that basement? I know LE spent a lot of time and energy searching for Hi-tech boots because of the print but what about socks, slippers, shoes and other boots? What did FW wear down there? His shoes? Or did he take his shoes off at the door? Was anyone in their stocking feet in that home during the investigation? Socks or tights could pick up a lot of fibers and track them around. Did visitors wear snow boots inside the Ramsey home? What were people wearing when they arrived at the Ramsey's the morning of the investigation? Was snow being tracked all around?

    Lint on her feet (if that is what it was) could possibly have been from her tights, or tights and socks, or just socks or another source(s)...right? We don't know for sure, do we? Yes, if JB wore cotton tights there would most likely be fibers from them on her panties, especially with cotton tights over cotton panties. Fibers may not necessarily be found on panties put on AFTER the tights and original panties were removed. Or fibers from the tights might not be found on panties put on her after tights and panties were removed, a pull-up put on, the pull-up removed and then new panties put on.

    If JB had changed (or been changed into) a pull-up when she got home right before going (or being put into) bed, she might not have put tights back on to sleep in or PR might not have put tights over a pull-up if she didn't want to wake JB up too much. Some kids sleep soundly enough they just barely wake up and fall back asleep so I think PR could have changed some of her clothes without fully awakening her. She might even have left tights on her and either not put long underwear on her or she could have put long underwear OVER the tights. She could even have put a pull-up on her, put the tights or different tights AND the long underwear on her. (Didn't I read somewhere the R's said they sometimes had the kids wear PAJAMAS to the airport?) If that is true, PR could have put long underwear OVER tights thinking she'd be ready to just get out of bed in the morning, right? Weren't they going to be in a rush in the morning? If that was the case, she might NOT want her in a pull-up because she'd have to take everything off to change into underwear. I doubt PR would want her wearing a pull-up in public. What was more important to PR...having JB in a pull-up to not risk having to bathe her? or having her being already to get to the car with nothing but a quick stop to the bathroom and time to slip on boots? Or what if JB did not even go to bed that night? What would she have had on? What if JB was put in bed and left dressed? PR put the previous days clothes back on, did she just leave her in her clothes so she'd be ready to get up and go? LE collected tights but did they consider other footwear? Does LE have more evidence than we are privy too? That is possible, right? (Especially if it incriminates minor(s), right? Aren't there "blacked out" items on the evidence lists?) Hmmm. Could there be a list(s) which wasn't released?

    Bottom line is we really don't know FOR SURE what, if anything, JB had on her feet before bed, in bed, out of bed, OR what she had on her feet, if anything, when she was murdered. So....shouldn't LE have collected all her socks, shoes, boots, and slippers? And even if they did, isn't it POSSIBLE she had something on her feet which was a one-of-a-kind item (non-same lot socks or tights) which was removed from the scene? Do any of the fibers found in her BED match the fiber evidence in the basement? What about the family members socks? Shouldn't socks have been collected for evidence or to rule out fiber evidence as NOT coming from a possible intruder?

    If JB went willingly down to the basement to play with her brother or look for presents they'd seen but not received (as in partially wrapped presents found, if you follow me?) PR said she wrapped presents in the basement, right? And a partially wrapped FAO Schwartz present can be seen in a crime scene photo? Anyway, JB MIGHT have slipped on slippers, shoes or boots over socks, or tights, or socks and tights, or bare feet, right? There had been broken glass in the basement (ornaments), it was WINTER, the basement floor wasn't clean...she may have been told not to go down there without shoes, etc. IF she and her brother snuck down there she MIGHT have put shoes, boots, or slippers on to do so, right? I'm not saying I think this is probable. I'm just asking...isn't it POSSIBLE? Footwear could have had VERY IMPORTANT evidence. Also, MISSING footwear from the HOME could have been an important CLUE. Did the R's check to see if any slippers, boots, or shoes were missing? Were they questioned about socks and tights bought in multiples? Socks or tights which were purchased from the same lot as socks or tights which left fiber evidence might help identify the type of source of fiber evidence left at the scene if not the exact article. Yes, LE took tights as evidence. BUT WHAT ABOUT SOCKS???? Slippers? Shoes? Boots?

    I know a lot of people think the Garland in JB's hair came from being carried down the stairs...and I think that is very possible but weren't those Garlands stored in the basement? Couldn't she have gotten part of that Garland in her hair from the basement? Either while she was alive or after death?

    Colorado? Snow? Winter? Asleep in car? Pineapple in kitchen? Basement? Barefeet? Lint or Dirt on feet? Dark Fibers? Wiped?

    Why aren't we reading MORE about socks, tights, slippers, shoes, AND boots??????? Why aren't there MORE of these items on the evidence lists? Did LE collect all the socks from everyone in the home from the dirty laundry piles, by their beds, in the bathroom? If someone was in that basement with stocking feet...their socks would likely be a goldmine of fiber evidence, right? Looking at those photos, I sure wouldn't go down there barefoot, would you? If you were worried about leaving shoe prints...what would you do? If you didn't wear slippers or shoes, would you go barefoot? Would you wear socks? If you quickly showered would you remember to hide your socks RIGHT AWAY? Could you have tracked evidence to your bedroom floor? Was the bathroom rug or area near the dirty clothes or by a chair where he might sit to remove his socks searched for possible evidence? Yes, he lived in the home but if a lot of debris from the basement was located right where he removed his socks, that would be important, right? Could someone who wore socks in the basement and then showered put those same socks back on wrong side out? Could someone have worn socks in the basement wrong side out then turned them right side out and either put them right back on or after a shower? Did LE ask anyone to remove their socks to look at their feet and inside of their socks?

    What IF you never took your socks, nylons, or tights off from under your black pants, would you still have them on if you had spent a lot of time writing a ransom note and fixing your make-up? If you wear nylons under your pants for a smooth line, might you wear socks over them to keep them from getting dirty or snagging?

    Would the intruder(s), IF there, leave their boots or shoes on to sneak around in the house? Maybe. Could they have been in the basement in stocking feet? Yes, IF there were intruders. So fiber evidence by or on the body could have come from the perp's socks...from I or R, right?

    What if the perp had a foot fetish? Could the perp have removed footwear to see the feet? To take as a souvenir?

    We know LE collected Fiber evidence from IN her bed, shouldn't they have collected socks from JB and all the family members to see if some of the fibers IN her bed were from family members' socks? Didn't someone say JB sometimes went into her brother's room to sleep in his bed? Did he sometimes go into her room to sleep with her? Didn't PR allegedly sometimes sleep in the other bed in JB's room? Some people sleep with socks on, or wear socks in the house when they aren't sleeping. Wouldn't it be helpful to know whose sock fibers were found IN JB's bed ON the sheets which were ON her bed the night she was murdered?

    Sorry this is so long...I had to jot down all my thoughts as they popped into my head. What is Possible...even if it is not Probable and what is Proof?
     
  17. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    No-Skid socks from Hanna Andersson:
    colors vary year to year, sometimes offered in black...

    Are there any photos of the R kids wearing socks like these? These are not slippery on wood floors and they can leave a lot of lint on feet.


    http://www.hannaandersson.com/style.asp?from=SC|11|3|8|61|9||&simg=32535_A91


    Here are examples of COTTON socks and tights. They usually have black tights and often have black cotton socks for sale.
    http://www.hannaandersson.com/category.asp?id=girls_socks+&+tights

    Hanna Andersson sells beautiful Christmas clothes (dresses, jumpers, vests for boys, family sweaters etc.) Lots of PLAID. They usually sell black velour pants for mothers and daughter near the holidays. They offer matching family Christmas clothing for all ages for the whole family. They sell some mother and daughter matching items all year.

    Does anyone know if PR bought clothes from Hanna Andersson? Considering she liked to dress JB and BR in matching outfits for a Christmas photo, I would think it very possible she did. If she bought Christmas clothes, she'd likely buy tights and once she tried the Hanna tights...she'd likely buy more in other colors. They are really soft and last a very long time...and leave lint on the toes.

    They've been in business since 1983...http://www.hannaandersson.com/aboutHanna.asp
     
  18. my_tee_mouse

    my_tee_mouse Done. Put a Fork in Me.

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    BBM
    So true. They should have treated this as a murder investigation...not a botched-kidnapping-ending-in-murder investigation! They proceeded based on what the occupants of the house told them! They didn't even search the whole house! So 14 years later, we are left to take pitiful snatches of evidence and try to make some sense of them.
     
  19. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    I know this sounds stupid since I should remember, but did Patsy and John claim that the intruder or someone changed JonBenet into those white thermal PJ's that she was found wearing? JonBenet may have only had on tights at the party that nite and ran around barefoot in them. Most of my kids and grandkids take their shoes off soon as they get inside no matter the weather, and JonBenet was so at home at their friend's house that she might have shed her shoes all evening. The feet can get dirty in tights if they're not the really thick ones, as anyone who's had a girl in Ballet knows. I'd like to know if she went barefoot at the party. Not having any shoes on is really strange if the intruder if supposed to have changed her clothes, but could also indicate sexual motivation and not wanting shoes in the way.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Toltec,
    The size-12's or the size-6's?


    .
     
  21. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Steely,
    Patsy suggests in her interview that she removed JonBenet's socks.

    Patsy's 1997 BPD Interview, excerpt
    Removal of the socks may simply form part of the staging , that is , to suggest JonBenet was kidnapped from her bed whilst asleep.

    .
     

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