Socks? Was Jon Benet wearing them?

[my_tee_mouse]

I can't see him abusing and killing his sister, but some people think he did. Why is it people can imagine BR torturing his sister but no one can imagine he would take his dead sister her a favorite doll and nightgown?

If JBR was sick with the flu and lying on the couch, I can see her brother bringing her a favorite stuffed animal to hold. My little three-year-old grandson will do that for his little sister when he knows she's feeling bad. But there's a big stretch between that scenario and a child being able to go into that wine cellar and place items with his dead sister. I don't see the parents allowing it.

I can't recall anyone accusing BR of torturing his sister, not on this forum anyway.

 

[Steely]

The problem is that her FACE wasn't covered up. The blanket was wrapped around her torso only. Head, face and legs exposed. Her hands were said to be sticking out as well, but they couldn't have been stretched out flat over her head as described by JR because by that time, she was in full rigor and her arms were as they are shown in the crime photos as she lay on the living room rug- bent up at the elbow in front of her face.
Dead bodies are scary to kids. I simply cannot see BR going down to the WC alone to see JB or put anything in he room with her.

This wasn't just any dead body...this was his sister.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

This wasn't just any dead body...this was his sister.

Exactly. His dead sister.

 

[Steely]

If JBR was sick with the flu and lying on the couch, I can see her brother bringing her a favorite stuffed animal to hold. My little three-year-old grandson will do that for his little sister when he knows she's feeling bad. But there's a big stretch between that scenario and a child being able to go into that wine cellar and place items with his dead sister. I don't see the parents allowing it.

I can't recall anyone accusing BR of torturing his sister, not on this forum anyway.

I suggested ONE way it was possible that items may have been placed by JB which would have shocked JR enough to respond, "that's not supposed to be there." Static cling? PR? I don't think you can rule out BR. The layout of the house might have enabled him to do it without his parents knowing it. It may be a stretch...but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

 

[Steely]

The problem is that her FACE wasn't covered up. The blanket was wrapped around her torso only. Head, face and legs exposed. Her hands were said to be sticking out as well, but they couldn't have been stretched out flat over her head as described by JR because by that time, she was in full rigor and her arms were as they are shown in the crime photos as she lay on the living room rug- bent up at the elbow in front of her face.
Dead bodies are scary to kids. I simply cannot see BR going down to the WC alone to see JB or put anything in he room with her.

I'm really confused about this blanket business. I read that JR SAID she was wrapped papoose style. Was that even possible with the rigor? Didn't he move her before anyone else saw her? Weren't there other blanket(s) found in the cellar also? How do we know they weren't covering her?

 

[UKGuy]

I'm really confused about this blanket business. I read that JR SAID she was wrapped papoose style. Was that even possible with the rigor? Didn't he move her before anyone else saw her? Weren't there other blanket(s) found in the cellar also? How do we know they weren't covering her?

Steely,

Lets try and clear this up for you.

Det. Michael Everett says he saw two blankets in the wine-cellar.

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Det. Michael Everett informed Your Affiant that after the discovery of the girl's body that he walked through the basement area of the house to attempt to determine if any persons were present in the basement. In the area where Det. Arndt had told Det. Everett that the decedent had been found by her father he observed two blankets on the floor in the center of the room.

Now here is a picture of the wine-cellar and what might be two blankets:

Since we now know, beyond doubt, that the pink object is the barbie-nightgown and beneath it lies a barbie-doll, then its possible that Det. Michael Everett simply mistook the barbie-nightgown for a blanket, not unless there is another blanket under the white one that is visible?

In the DNA analysis of January 13, 1997 there is only one blanket referenced.

IMO the manner of the staging suggests that JonBenet was wrapped so to avoid forensic transfer. The papoose style is consistent with this assumption otherwise why not wrap the whole body in a blanket?

That is she was wrapped after death and may have been moved by John that morning from another location in the basement? Thus explaining why Fleet White saw nothing when he first looked?


.

 

[claudicici]

Do we know without a doubt that's a gown and a barbie ?
I thought we were just speculating.

 

[madeleine]

if JB was found dead barefoot that IMO means either
RDI and something happened in her bedroom or BR's bedroom

or

IDI and she was taken from her bed


this doesn't fit the 'eating pineapple in the kitchen before she died' theory though.....

 

[UKGuy]

Do we know without a doubt that's a gown and a barbie ?
I thought we were just speculating.

claudicici,

Yes because Patsy identifies both in an interview with BPD. Tom Haney corroborates what Patsy sees!

Interview

21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --

22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the

23 photo was taken.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why

25 was that there?

0383

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

same interview , same photo.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie

12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so

14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,

16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,

17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not

18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --

20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under

21 there.

22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down

23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because

24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection

25 that is washed out.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm really confused about this blanket business. I read that JR SAID she was wrapped papoose style. Was that even possible with the rigor? Didn't he move her before anyone else saw her? Weren't there other blanket(s) found in the cellar also? How do we know they weren't covering her?

In the wineceller, JB was said to have been found on her back with her head cocked to the RIGHT, lying on a white blanket which had been pulled around her torso. Her head was exposed, face-up, and her legs and feet were also exposed. FW admitted touching her ankle. This was very possible, even with rigor. The blanket was plenty large enough, being twin-size, and of course a blanket is soft enough to cover arms that were bent up in front of her. Try to picture that her arms were NOT frozen straight out in front of her (like a sleep-walker) but they were bent at the elbow up in front of her like a boxer would hold his arms.
FW was right behind JR when he rushed into the WC, and if this had not been the case, he would have told LE. There is a LOT of misconception about how she looked in situ when first "found" in the WC, because of that very misleading drawing that we have all seen. Keep in mind the drawing was NOT done by someone who had actually seen JB's body in the WC, but done from the artist's impression of what she MIGHT have looked like.

 

[Steely]

In the wineceller, JB was said to have been found on her back with her head cocked to the RIGHT, lying on a white blanket which had been pulled around her torso. Her head was exposed, face-up, and her legs and feet were also exposed. FW admitted touching her ankle. This was very possible, even with rigor. The blanket was plenty large enough, being twin-size, and of course a blanket is soft enough to cover arms that were bent up in front of her. Try to picture that her arms were NOT frozen straight out in front of her (like a sleep-walker) but they were bent at the elbow up in front of her like a boxer would hold his arms.
FW was right behind JR when he rushed into the WC, and if this had not been the case, he would have told LE. There is a LOT of misconception about how she looked in situ when first "found" in the WC, because of that very misleading drawing that we have all seen. Keep in mind the drawing was NOT done by someone who had actually seen JB's body in the WC, but done from the artist's impression of what she MIGHT have looked like.

Thanks so much for this clarification. So the arms were in front of her face? or neck level? or chest level? (trying to imagine a boxer...)
But they think she actually died on her stomach because of the urine findings, right? And her head was cocked to the right and her head fracture was on the right...There is soooo much info to keep straight, isn't there?

What about the "odor" they said was about the body? Was that typical for the time they figured she'd been dead?

 

[Steely]

if JB was found dead barefoot that IMO means either
RDI and something happened in her bedroom or BR's bedroom

or

IDI and she was taken from her bed


this doesn't fit the 'eating pineapple in the kitchen before she died' theory though.....

or bathroom?

 

[UKGuy]

if JB was found dead barefoot that IMO means either
RDI and something happened in her bedroom or BR's bedroom

or

IDI and she was taken from her bed


this doesn't fit the 'eating pineapple in the kitchen before she died' theory though.....

madeleine,
Although I've mentioned in the No Intruder thread it is relevant here. In the parents account of placing JonBenet to bed there is no mention of her socks being removed, only that John removed her boots.

Patsy's account of dressing JonBenet in the longjohns does not say she removed the socks.

So if JonBenet had been abducted directly from her bed as per the prescient intruder then she should have been found wearing socks?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks so much for this clarification. So the arms were in front of her face? or neck level? or chest level? (trying to imagine a boxer...)
But they think she actually died on her stomach because of the urine findings, right? And her head was cocked to the right and her head fracture was on the right...There is soooo much info to keep straight, isn't there?

What about the "odor" they said was about the body? Was that typical for the time they figured she'd been dead?

You're welcome. If you look at the photos of JB lying on the living room rug, you can see her arms bent at the elbow, hands probably about chin/cheek level. Not completely up in front of her face, but definitely above her chest.
I agree she died on her stomach. The urine stains on her clothes were anterior (the front). The knot on the garrote was at the back of her neck. So I'd say the garrote, which I feel killed her (though she was already dying from the head bash), was pulled by someone above her as she lay on her stomach. Then she was placed on her back in the WC.
The odor of decay that Detective Arndt spoke of was typical for the amount of time she was dead- about 12 hours at that point. That odor represents the very beginning of decay- gases are beginning to build up in the intestinal area (where the "soft green fecal material" was found), and in another day without refrigeration, her skin over her abdomen would have had a distinct greenish color that would be very visible, over that same area where the coroner noted the green fecal material. Decay starts in the intestines, prompted by the bacteria already there. Bacteria generate odor, wherever they are found.
JB's mouth was open, and as her internal organs were beginning to undergo autolysis, and anaerobic bacteria were beginning the process of decay, the odor would emanate from there. There was also the dried urine, which would have an odor as well.

 

[Steely]

The odor of decay that Detective Arndt spoke of was typical for the amount of time she was dead- about 12 hours at that point. That odor represents the very beginning of decay- gases are beginning to build up in the intestinal area (where the "soft green fecal material" was found), and in another day without refrigeration, her skin over her abdomen would have had a distinct greenish color that would be very visible, over that same area where the coroner noted the green fecal material. Decay starts in the intestines, prompted by the bacteria already there. Bacteria generate odor, wherever they are found.
JB's mouth was open, and as her internal organs were beginning to undergo autolysis, and anaerobic bacteria were beginning the process of decay, the odor would emanate from there. There was also the dried urine, which would have an odor as well.

Can you post a link to info which supports this...that the decaying odor would have started within 12 hours? Because I've only found info that the smell starts later:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17647-smell-of-death-can-point-to-murder-time.html
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

 

[RTC]

Tights under pants sound like you are dressing an infant/toddler. She probably had the long johns on under her velvet pants. most six year olds dress themselves, but I agree PR probably did do her hair. maybe socks maybe no socks, could be bare feet in boots. PR cant even remember when the last time her baby had a bath. It was Christmas time, she should have known. She lied so much that nothing she has said rings the truth for me. Who knows what JB was wearing under her outer clothes that night at the party, maybe it was the size 12 panties and she wasnt redressed as the Ramseys claim. Their lies have really hampered the investigation and the main reason why I think they know exactly what happened that night. I am surprised that their lies are not enough evidence, along with RN, fibers,lights in house, In my opinion this should be a lay down of guilt. I dont care which Ramsey did it, in my opinion they are all responsible including Burke.

 

[UKGuy]

Tights under pants sound like you are dressing an infant/toddler. She probably had the long johns on under her velvet pants. most six year olds dress themselves, but I agree PR probably did do her hair. maybe socks maybe no socks, could be bare feet in boots. PR cant even remember when the last time her baby had a bath. It was Christmas time, she should have known. She lied so much that nothing she has said rings the truth for me. Who knows what JB was wearing under her outer clothes that night at the party, maybe it was the size 12 panties and she wasnt redressed as the Ramseys claim. Their lies have really hampered the investigation and the main reason why I think they know exactly what happened that night. I am surprised that their lies are not enough evidence, along with RN, fibers,lights in house, In my opinion this should be a lay down of guilt. I dont care which Ramsey did it, in my opinion they are all responsible including Burke.

RTC,
I must agree with you. Previously I suggested collusion with the possibility of conspiracy, but collusion is what appears to have taken place, avoiding the legal process and retaining liberty patently motivated the Ramseys to obscure and obsfucate the evidence.

On the size-12's, in her interview Patsy is on record contradicting herself, not withstanding that the wrapping paper for the size-12's was found in the basement.

Patsy stated that she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her personal use, yet none were discovered anywhere in the house, never mind the underwear drawer!

I reckon Patsy was making it up , not for herself, but either for John or Burke?


.

 

[Steely]

Tights under pants sound like you are dressing an infant/toddler. She probably had the long johns on under her velvet pants. most six year olds dress themselves, but I agree PR probably did do her hair. maybe socks maybe no socks, could be bare feet in boots. PR cant even remember when the last time her baby had a bath. It was Christmas time, she should have known. She lied so much that nothing she has said rings the truth for me. Who knows what JB was wearing under her outer clothes that night at the party, maybe it was the size 12 panties and she wasnt redressed as the Ramseys claim. Their lies have really hampered the investigation and the main reason why I think they know exactly what happened that night. I am surprised that their lies are not enough evidence, along with RN, fibers,lights in house, In my opinion this should be a lay down of guilt. I dont care which Ramsey did it, in my opinion they are all responsible including Burke.

Great points about the lies hampering and not helping the investigation. You've gotten me thinking more about this... People at the party might have known and photos might show what she was wearing on her feet at the party. PR was arguing with JB on the 23rd and on the 25th about what JB was going to wear to those parties. PR cared a great deal about what JB wore on special occasions and photos show she loved to have the family dress in coordinated outfits. In a cold climate it is not unusual to wear tights under pants for added warmth...it isn't just toddler's that might do that. If JB had bare feet under her boots... someone at the party might know that if she had taken snowy boots off once inside the house. To me the main question is....WHY is it so important to the R's that we believe JB was asleep when she got home when there is evidence she was NOT??

 

[RTC]

Colorado is a ski town. Long johns are common under pants. Tights are for dresses. What do the other mothers in Boulder think??
The other part of the story that is not fitting for me is why would the FAO gift still be in the wine cellar and not under the tree, This was Christms night not Christmas eve. I find it suspect any gifts were still in WC/ basement. No reason to be.

 

[DeeDee249]

Can you post a link to info which supports this...that the decaying odor would have started within 12 hours? Because I've only found info that the smell starts later:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17647-smell-of-death-can-point-to-murder-time.html
http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

The strong odor of wet decay (putrefaction) does take longer, but there would be some odor at the point JB was found, the dried urine among them. Among others- dead people with mouths open in rigor have a distinctive odor to their "breath". It isn't actually "breath" because they aren't breathing, but if you were close to a dead body where the corpse's mouth was open, you'd know what I mean.
If you search for "forensic entomology" you'll see that the beginnings of an odor of decay can be detected by some insects within 10 minutes of death if the body is outdoors, and about an hour for a body indoors. Although most people don't realize this, many insects have an incredible sense of smell. They smell the changes in the BLOOD in a body- as lactic acid builds up (rigor mortis) among other things. Not that a human could have that sensitive a sense of smell, but after being dead for 12 hours (and JB was found at around that point) Arndt (because of her training in police work) may have been familiar with that smell. Not necessarily because she was familiar with homicides (I don't believe she was) but because in the nature of police work, there are times when you'd be called to a home where someone had died of natural causes.