Discussion in 'Missing Persons Discussion' started by cybervampira, Apr 7, 2019.
Family members of the missing men should go through the process to become verified insiders.
Interesting article, with a connection between Costa del Sol and Malmö, Sweden, but with one error. The Spanish police chief mentions that a couple was killed in a shooting at a cafe in Malmö, beside the intended target. There were a shooting in June 2018 where three people died, and three injured, but all six were members of rival gangs. There have been several shootings in Malmö during the last decade, but (by luck) no innocents killed.
Malmö isn't more dangerous than any other city in Sweden.
There is a separate process for becoming a verified insider on a case if you wish to. Once you are verified as being a family member it gives you more free reign to post certain information here than others have (I think). Here is the process:
Verification Process for Professional or Insider Posters
It is an unusual circumstance for me. I read a lot of similar stories without being affected, have had civilian friends taken hostage during war and was not moved in this way. Here I seem to have stepped right into Dany's place. It is not something I search for, I am a quiet person and don't go looking for "thrills" , I spend a lot of time online doing research and using intuition and reflection and logic.
<modsnip - psychic discussion>
Although I know a lot about the coast, the local crime units will know much more, this is why I insist that information is given to them. The UDYCO, ECO and GRECO units are very dedicated at ground level, the CNI and British intelligence are very capable. However mixed into that are bureaucracy and agendas at mid and higher levels, so it is important to keep the case visible to keep this all active.
I understand that there will be priveleged information, it is frustrating for us but we have to accept and respect the management offered, not without letting know that there is and will be scrutiny for errors. That is how responsibility works in practice.
I would urge you not to read too much into the local crime scene. There is a lot of information just via the press even, there are all sorts of events that go on, all sorts of characters , but I don't think you will get closer to what has happened this way, are likely to end up disturbed imagining what might have happened. Your choice , but it is not nescessary to torture yourself, and it is less likely to provide any answer than staying focused using whatever information you do have.
<modsnip - suggestion of victim blaming>
You know it is also possible they were just imprudent or unwittingly or innocently caught up in something. I will give everyone an outside of the box example:
They head up to the waste-ground behind the urbanisation there to watch the sunset, are set on by people just returned from Syria who want to keep a bargaining chip, or by local mafia who want to have a member released from prison, the police and diplomatic corp etc. do not want this information released to anyone though they have received notice from the hostage takers. The hostage takers don't go public because they know it will force the authorities hand in an opposite direction to that wished. It's the deep end and not what I think has happened, but it is a possibility.
My point is just that we have to tread lightly.
A private investigator might be useful, if only to give an independent assessment to the family, but also because they are able to act where police are restrained, might gain nescessary confidences to find material to resolve this. I don't know if it is a good idea or not as a whole though, that is a decision for those involved.
If I were I were in the area, I would be out doing what was possible to close avenues of question within my reach. That is to say I would go along all the rough tracks within a half hour drive, stopping anywhere a car might go offroad undiscovered, I would go magnet fishing at points where a vehicle could be dumped in a reservoir, and so on. This is just systematic ground work that helps focus the rest, something to do that can be done.
Well I am quiet because I don't think there is more that I can add or do . I search up for new information a few times a day, and stay current on local news also. I noticed on search that press release is very coordinated, that is to say that there are no new articles for a few days then all the local (UK) press ( some thirty or more sources) carry the story...then quiet again. Maybe it would be an idea to have a page or source that is updated daily...websleuths does that but it does not show up in search, nor do social media... updated daily or a new article/appeal appearing somewhere/wherever, that show up in search, that will keep the theme more live. I don't know exactly how to go about that, someone will though.
At your own pace Lauryn , you are surrounded by people who will help.
Snipped by me.
This is a great suggestion by Oto. Find some folks to do this—a driver and passenger in each search car, hopefully with sharp eyes and good intuition.
Are there any auto clubs or search and rescue groups who might be available to help?
I think an hour plus drive out might be necessary. But start from their last known location, and drive anywhere they could have driven, checking curves, narrow sections of road, etc.
Grid search by car, so to speak, since their rental car is missing as well.
If my family members and their car were missing, I’d figure out some way to do as Oto suggested. Take an unfortunate accident off the table as far as you can.
Thank you @dotr
wow. I’m going to have to start taking steps back now. I guess maybe this is the wrong place for me. Thanks for everyone’s help. I’ll stop reading from now.
I think everyone here has a common goal, we want them found for Lauryn and Louis sakes as much as anything. I can certainly vouch for many members here who have helped on other cases and it's nice that so many people have joined who actually know Danny & Liam. But....
I am sure there is stuff going on that should be kept out of the public eye for now - operational reasons, as it were. It seems clear what kind of situation has possibly happened, and by nature of that perhaps this just can't be treated like a typical misper case.
Hopefully @Laurynpoole will update us soon with what she can.
None of this is helping @Laurynpoole which is what we've all been trying to do over the last month or so. Lauryn I hope you will still post if there are any updates or if you need any help with anything.
Reset with re-post.
'Not a planned disappearance' - New details released about missing father and son
“We know that Daniel and Liam hired a grey Peugeot 308 car registration number 0254KTM when they arrived in Spain but this has not been returned to the car hire firm.
“Their family are very concerned about them as they last heard from them on April 1, the lack of contact is out of character for the pair. The family are being supported by family liaison officers and are being kept informed.”
Anyone who can assist with the investigation is urged to report online or ring 101 quoting Operation Pheasant."
(WS-lingo, meaning Respectfully Snipped By Me & Bolded By Me)
Oto, if I were in the area, I would join you in that search. I knowe it may sound like an easy offer from someone who is thousands of kms away and safely sitting behind her desktop pc, but still, I seriously agree. This is what needs to be done, and also, this is what a dedicated group of ordinary and not-so ordinary citizens CAN do.
I have been wondering of course why no one of the family or friends went down to Málaga and my conclusion was that there could be many reasons, and among those reasons it might be that they would either jeopardize an investigation and / or put themselves in danger.
And we don't want that. The family have enough problems as it stands now.
I hope that on this thread we can somehow make this search happen that Oto proposes. I think if we could decide on this as a common ground, we might make some progress. If only to exclude certain options, but that also counts as a result.
If you have the time and you feel like it, I recommend that you read this thread about a woman who disappeared in Scotland and a friend who crossed an ocean to join the local search for her:
Found Deceased - UK - Susan McLean, 61, U.S. tourist, Aberfeldy, Scotland, 17 May 2015
Does the Lucy Blackman Trust do searches on the ground as proposed by @Oto ? Would a PI do that?
Greatest thread ever and a fine example of how a stranger on the internet really can help. I often think about Susan's story and the amazing teamwork by posters on there.
I think the Lucie Blackman Trust is more a support service - helping make contacts, do translations, speak to the right agencies, help find and fund travel etc. Not sure they're "boots on the ground".
There have been many posts on this thread that are in violation of the Websleuths Terms of Service (TOS). They are being removed.
If you are a family member or friend of the missing men, please consider becoming a Verified Insider so that you can post information without the need to provide links to mainstream media (MSM) to substantiate your statements. Otherwise such information is considered to be RUMOR and is not permitted on this forum. It will be deleted.
Verification Process for Professional or Insider Posters
If your posts have been removed or edited, it is because they have been in violation of TOS. We want to support the family and friends of missing persons, and we can only do that by insuring they are protected by our TOS if/when they become Verified Insiders.
Please post respectfully. We all want to do what we can to help family and friends during this difficult time find out what happened to Daniel and Liam.
Please pay special attention to CocoChanel's note above.
We have 3 members (2 family members and 1 long time friend of the family) who are posting as insiders without having been verified in this thread. Although becoming a Verified Insider is voluntary, it is imperative that you do so if you wish to continue posting inside information without links to MSM or LE to support what you state as fact. It really is a simple and painless process (see the link in Coco's post above) and is absolutely confidential. Any questions about the process, please ask any Mod, Admin, or Tricia and we'll help you through it.
At this point, many posts have been let stand that contain inside info. From this point forward, any posts containing inside info made without having been approved as a VI, will be removed. We don't like to do that but it is necessary to ensure the credibility of information in any thread at Websleuths.
This thread is open again.
Open again , I'll kick this off
I like many wish the family D and L the answers they deserve.
Let's move on . One common goal .
@windrower and Zazara
This was not an idle armchair suggestion, nor to suggest what family and friends should do. If I were anywhere nearby I would be out having a look around. For now I can't. There are added reasons for doing this. Firstly it raises awareness, there are cases that I know of that do not get forgotten over the space of years because flyers still appear, the occasional article, and searches are still organised in the mountains. Secondly that awareness gets attention from authority, and that keeps a case live. Thirdly, if ordinary people make an effort, they are in a position to ask and receive help from authorities. The police will not scour country tracks or countryside more than normal unless they are sure that is worthwhile, they do so when they have strong information. So ordinary people have to do this, and why not - it is within normal capability and police resources are often stretched. The police will not go inspecting all water points on the off-chance a vehicle has been dumped. If someone approaches them, after making the effort of investigating, because there is a large metal object near an access point and asks them to check it, they likely will. You cannot just expect things to be done for you, more so in Spain maybe but equally in other countries a lot is just appearances.
On the coast there are expat meeting points, from the Lions Club, expat forums, local press, schools, popular bars even. People there will help, but how to organise that is something else - I think all you can do is appeal to or through, and see who turns up. There are some motorbike and offroad outfits there, a cart track in Fuengirola, but no rally clubs left that I know of, just talking with those to see if they have suggestions might help, or if not there is "marocatlas gibraltar 4x4 club" that I think would be well worth talking with. A family member or someone close on the ground to organise this would be nescessary in my opinion , because to represent the family by anyone else (beyond infornal) is going to be difficult.
I would not start by searching too far inland, they were last seen in the early evening so if they did go for a short drive for fun say, they would not head far. Half an hour on country tracks is not that far, say a radius of fifteen kms from their hotel. Not a great feat, maybe a single person could do that in a week ( fifty or so hours)... wild guess but something like that. Once you go further into the Serrania de Ronda the area is more inaccessible (in terms of the quantity of tracks and being forrested), and I don't think they would have gone there without a destination in mind. The paved roads are usually barriered so really it is more about back roads and tracks.
I respect the snips you made , and the reason for them. I also know I kept the views balanced and without accusation .
For psychic discussion , you are more than welcome to take the weight of what I am aware of off of me in this case, would you know how to?
We cannot discuss a possible crime case without contemplating that the victims might have somehow been outside the law in some way, because when we consider to find someone we understand their actions. I personally do not see this as victim blaming, the categorisation of blame is invented because it assumes that the legal definition of right and wrong is automatically right - it isn't. I will respect the sentiment or point of view taken here though, it restricts to a degree and leaves us with " maybe they went to meet someone, but let's not work out who ". I understand the difficult situation you are in as moderator .
I will now give a simple example in logical terms, because there are facets of this case that do not add up:
There are few choices as to how two males and their vehicle dissappear, very few. It is either voluntary (which we have just about ruled out) or involuntary.
If it is involuntary, there are two choices, mishap or crime against them.
I can understand that LE allows both possibilities to run, with the first it is public mobilisation that will play a large part, in the latter there is likely a criminal investigation underway. The two can be mutually supportive. The fact that various basic detail is witheld, now two months on, points to a criminal investigation being favoured by LE. I am " happy" to leave it there, but the family are obviously not informed of this, have not been "brought in" and are left to trail their circumstance in public, exposing themselves to direct speculation. Not only should it not be this way, I will say it is wrong, even manipulative of the circumstance of those closest to the missing. I don't pretend or claim authority anywhere in this, I am telling you openly what I find. I could go deeper into background organisation, I could go into logical explanation of what is likely to have occurred if it were a criminal dissapearance, but I will hold for now.
As a member of the public willing to contribute to finding them, it leaves a feeling of being used, or confused. People notice this, it governs how much they are willing to commit of their own time and energy. The public (in general) work by sincerity and seek no reward but to see good done and difficulty resolved.
Hi Oto. Not sure what you mean by me taking the weight off what you are aware of ... but FYI, Websleuths is fact based, so psychic discussion of any kind is not allowed.