Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by FrostOwl, Nov 29, 2020.
2200m is below the Port..
The skull fragment was found at 2200m. The other remains were said to be located above the level of the Port (2367m).
Thanks. I didn't get that you were also talking about her scrambling or not, but in any case, was most directly responding to your take that she looked tentative in that video, where I saw confidence & ease.
Fair enough I didn't think everyone would see it the same
I only thought it was a tad tentative, not so much as in nervous/didn't know what she was doing, so much as technical climbing probably not really her thing? I know that bit wasn't technical really, but it's how she came to be at the top of Pic de la Glere that puzzles me.
I was thinking of line B because of the actual path that goes up and because it seems to reach the ridge at the requisite 100m horizontal distance from the path below. Google Earth seems to show that path going through a tight gap between outcrops and emerging onto grass again as it reaches to the ridge (not that I have too much confidence in Google's rendering). Another reason is that the drop is pretty sheer at that point (see first pic attached, which shows your line B and the point at which it comes out on the ridge (circled) which is my original point X.
I can't see any sign of a path at your line A but it looks perfectly possible to get up to that little gap on the horizon. I didn't really consider that spot though because the drop on the French side doesn't look quite so perilous at that point (see second pic) and it would also seem to be clearly visible from the Port.
Some great pictures.
Pic de la Glere really is a hideous pile of rock though and surely only a masochist would bother with it. Personally, I only climb good-looking mountains
I agree, sometimes partners are the last to know.
Regarding the shoes, surely if they were so worn for her to slip to her death, she would have noticed long before she got to that treacherous area and put on her crampons - it's not like she'd been walking on a smooth paved path prior to that.
It may not have been that slippery until it either started getting dark or she started getting into shadowy areas near the pic or the french side that are colder. She was mostly walking in the Spanish side up until then, which is warmer and sunnier.
The only other point I was wondering about is closer to the peak and that little shelf under it. It would be hard to see a body in that area from the Port as it would be blocked by the shelf itself. And because of the curve around it would be hard to see from the opposite side too. That would be in line with her actually trying to climb the pic, which is what I think she may have done since she also climbed the previous peak the day before and took a selfie which she sent to Dan.
I think that would correspond to a fall into that snowy region from the photo Federico posted above.. Basically a climb up to the peak, with a slip on the icy rock into that sheltered area below. If you assume a person is 1.5m, just imagine falling 15-20 people worth of distance into that shelfy/rocky area below.
While a simple accident is still the most likely theory, the surprising location she was found in does raise some eyebrows. Frankly, I cannot see how anyone can say that suicide is unlikely, but maybe it is just the occupational bias in my case.
I see several factors in this case that make the hypothesis of suicide more likely than in a random case: in the days leading up to this she was reaching out to strangers with her life problems, history of depression, probable big life changes coming up, being a kind and sensitive person, being somewhat of a perfectionist, possible history of eating disorder, returning to an area she loved, saying that she will be out of touch for a while and being vague about her plans, <modsnip - no link> No, relatives are not usually the first to notice and people with concealed depression might be even more likely to commit suicide than people with MDD. And even in any random case without any red flags suicide should not really be ruled out "just because".
11 Habits of People With Concealed Depression &
The 10 Core Traits of Perfectly Hidden Depression
With that being said, accident is my 1st pick, and I hope the phone history & autopsy & exact locations might confirm one possibility over the other. I' currently have a hard time to understand how and why she ended up at the location she fell from.
We humans see and interpret data uniquely, based upon many factors that are unique to us. Those factors could be our gender, age, race, ethnicity, education level, geography of residential history, vocation, recreation, lifestyle choices, socioeconomic status, relationships, social support structure, family dynamics, religious or spiritual beliefs, mental health history, physical health history, history of emotional or physical abuse, amount of trauma or loss of loved ones experienced, personality traits, aversion to risk or not, emotional intelligence, past lives (if you believe in that), etc. That is what I mean when I say that we each come to this case with our "filters".
And I think it is important to recognize and embrace our differences, and not disregard or dismiss them. The beauty of WS is the amalgamation of all our differences.
This case is rife with complex psycho-social dynamics along with more technical dynamics and there is no simple statistical algorithm we can run all the data through to get a regression analysis of scenario probabilities. So naturally we each work hard to objectively interpret data as it becomes available. But we also naturally interpret things slightly differently. Therefore we each have our own set of scenarios to explain ED's death and our minds have assigned our own probabilities for those scenarios.
For instance, in the beginning I was hot on the scenario that ED had voluntarily disappeared and was happily alive somewhere with a friend (old or new) who helped her. I have carefully considered accident for nine months now, and still believe she could have died from hypothermia after being injured. I have carefully considered theories that cannot be discussed here on WS. And I have given a lot of thought to a suicide scenario for ED. And right now, although it has shifted over the months, that is my #1.
@Hope4More, as I think @Seni suggested above, I encourage you to go back to Post #1 in Thread #1 and follow the detailed evolution of our collective thinking. It is amazing. I so wish ED was still alive. I am very sad to know she is no longer on this earth - she has a beautiful soul. But I am also relieved to know she is now at peace.
Ok fair enough but the pictures she posted in the few days before her death showed that she was already walking in snowy terrain (and presumably there would be some icy segments there too). It wasn’t a stroll in balmy Spanish sunshine and then suddenly she was plunged unpreparedly into snowy conditions.
I think she looks careful and considered.
To meet someone, to jump, too explore, to find a place to camp? Dunno, and one have any other ideas why she was at that point? Did she meet someone that day , the next day after the phone calls,… 23rd, and they took her there? And pushed her off?
RSBM & BBM
Interesting and poignant thoughts as this is your field of work. I looked through the last 3 IG posts and, other than one reference to leaves dying in autumn in one of them, I couldn't find any mentions of death. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place, is there a link?
If we believe media reports, I do not think the media or we know autopsy results yet. Here are some tidbits I found interesting in this 14/8 (Saturday) article:
Boyfriend of tragic British hiker shares their final words to each other
"Public prosecutor Christophe Amunzateguy said this week that the events leading to Esther's death might never be known."
"However, all the evidence so far gathered by his forensic teams points to an accidental death, he added."
"He said he will await the results of an autopsy before making any findings public."
Hence why I thought this NIH article might be interesting re: the possible release of an autopsy report. Maybe an autopsy can determine if ED A) died on the ledge (e.g. hypothermia after an injury or suicide) and her body fell post mortem due any of a variety of environmental factors, or B) fell to her death (e.g. accident or suicide).
Postmortem Change and its Effect on Evaluation of Fractures
There is probably lots to be learned from her phone (assuming the data on it is recoverable after surviving the fall and being buried under snow for 6-8 months). If she took photos along the way it would hopefully show the route she took. If she slipped while trying to take a selfie, they may find her last photo or photos on ir near the peak. And if she somehow survived the initial fall, she may have even recorded a last message once she realized her dire situation.
Unfortunately we may never know any of these things, as they may never be made public. But at least the families may know a bit more about her last day or days, if that brings them any comfort.
The autopsy of Esther Dingley's remains revealed that she died immediately after a fall.
She did not suffer. Esther Dingley, the 37-year-old hiker who went missing in the Pyrenees in November and whose body was found on Monday by her companion in the Luchonnais, died as a result of a fall. The autopsy took place this Thursday at the forensic institute in Toulouse," the Saint-Gaudens public prosecutor, Christophe Amunzateguy, told La Dépêche du Midi.
The doctors noted fractures which led to the immediate death of the person. The accidental cause of death is now the most likely explanation."
Found Deceased - Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6
I also think that's a distinct possibility. There are a number of features near the summit that might be described as a "piton rocheux", and any number of deep crevices below that would swallow up a falling body. The structure of the summit area is more complex than it looks on Google Earth, and good photographs of the peaks are hard to come by, but I think a fall from just below the summit area into the fissure behind the ridge would fit the news reports.
Puerto de la Glera (59) Puerto de la Glera (60)