Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[RickshawFan]

With all respect, I don't understand to what you refer in your last sentence, because I can't pinpoint how the huge operation or difficult weather or Covid or people's lives at risk might relate to LE withholding information from us.

Snipped for focus.

It does occur to me how this could be true. LE seems to have had very negative feedback from the public because there was a lockdown and no one should have been hiking in France, and LE was out there mounting a big search.
Under those conditions, if I were LE, I wouldn't be out there broadcasting status or scope.

 

[RickshawFan]

Here's a quote from a linked Seni posted above. 'We have nothing': police stumped by disappearance of Briton in Pyrenees

LE speaking:

“We have searched a very large area – 28 sq km in all – with specialist mountain teams, with dogs, with helicopters all along the route she said she was taking, and there is nothing. It’s not a particularly difficult route and at the time she was on the mountain the weather was good,” he said.

I read this as meaning, "We thoroughly searched the area DC told us she must have gone to (because he said if she said she was going there he was certain she was in fact going there), and didn't have time to search anywhere else."
The spanner in the works is that we have no idea where ED ACTUALLY went. Continued search has to wait for snow melt. At that time, perhaps the net will be cast wider than that piece of trail, because SAR searches generally do get cast wider and wider. And I'll bet the first place they look is in the area between the Port and the Hospital/Cabane (and from there, perhaps heading up to the glacier).

 

[RickshawFan]

Been away for a while and have come back to pick up this thread. Nothing seems to have changed much!
I provided an explanation for this forensic issue ages back.

1. Forensic examiners (SOCO’s) don’t always wear “protective clothing” unless, for example, at a murder or rape scene.
2. To suggest the SOCO was being “stealthy” is ridiculous. In the UK Police force I served in, they always drive unmarked vans. They’re not police officers so they don’t need marked vehicles (CID drive unmarked vehicles too - usually we got a naff Corsa!! If detectives or SOCO’s drove marked vehicles, they could be flagged down and end up dealing with incidents they don’t need to be dealing with when they need to be elsewhere).

They were probably searching for/examining paperwork, identification docs etc.

I’m sure the last thing they wanted was nosy MOP’s peering through the windows.

Genius! Yep, we've sorely needed you here, Hatty!
I never even thought of why unmarked cars are used, except as a stealthy method of catching speeders.
Apart from this case, I can go back to watching "New Tricks" armed with essential tidbits from this post! Crucial details!

 

[RickshawFan]

Been away for a while and have come back to pick up this thread. Nothing seems to have changed much!
I provided an explanation for this forensic issue ages back.

1. Forensic examiners (SOCO’s) don’t always wear “protective clothing” unless, for example, at a murder or rape scene.
2. To suggest the SOCO was being “stealthy” is ridiculous. In the UK Police force I served in, they always drive unmarked vans. They’re not police officers so they don’t need marked vehicles (CID drive unmarked vehicles too - usually we got a naff Corsa!! If detectives or SOCO’s drove marked vehicles, they could be flagged down and end up dealing with incidents they don’t need to be dealing with when they need to be elsewhere).

They were probably searching for/examining paperwork, identification docs etc.

I’m sure the last thing they wanted was nosy MOP’s peering through the windows.

I actually considered whether a forensic officer might be lying on the bed so s/he could look under it. The position might be way easier than squatting.

Also, s/he could be looking for any scraps that had fallen into cracks in the upholstery, down the side of the mattress, slipped into a cushion, stuck up into a drawer under the bed, etc....

Little route maps, sketches, ID's, phone numbers, business cards, last notes to lovers, family, and friends...

 

[Puzzles]

SAR is methodical and experienced the world over. They take such pride in what they do that they go to extreme lengths to find and help people. They put their own lives on the line on a regular basis. They are also extremely methodical, with techniques, grid maps, weather charting, etc. honed over decades with military and SAR predecessors. IMO disputing their competence is a non-starter.[/QUOTE]

Snipped.

Excellent post above @RickshawFan

There are still things I just can't figure out about the much-discussed tracker/sniffer dogs having been used in the search for Esther. Maybe you, or other sleuths, can answer my questions. Please.

- would the dogs not need items with her scent in order to track her?

- DC states the French police didn't want her clothing/samples from him, but maybe the Spanish SAR/LE did? Is that what we think?

- I imagine the dogs would locate where Esther had been on the Pic. Is that correct?

- I also imagine, having located where she'd been on the Pic, they could then follow her scent to show by what path she left the Pic. Is that correct?

- If she'd fallen from the Pic, would the dogs stop tracking, and mill around the spot from which she'd fallen?

What I'm pondering is if it's reasonable to assume the dogs could either show the direction ED took when she left the Pic, or would their tracing of her abruptly end if she fell from it?
But if that's how tracker/sniffer dogs behave, with the former description wouldn't authorities know, for certain, at least the beginning of the route she took after she left the Pic? And with the latter description, wouldn't they know, for certain, she'd fallen off the Pic?

But if they knew she fell from the Pic, why would anyone have reported they don't believe she's on the mountain? Unless they mean she's not on that particular mountain. (I doubt they'd be pedantically expressing she fell into a valley, and so is not on the mountain itself.)

I just can't understand how the dogs would provide no information at all to help direct the search, or give authorities some substantial idea of what exactly happened.

There's another possibility, of course: I'm being particularly stupid today...

 

[Satchie]

Here's a quote from a linked Seni posted above. 'We have nothing': police stumped by disappearance of Briton in Pyrenees

LE speaking:

“We have searched a very large area – 28 sq km in all – with specialist mountain teams, with dogs, with helicopters all along the route she said she was taking, and there is nothing. It’s not a particularly difficult route and at the time she was on the mountain the weather was good,” he said.

I read this as meaning, "We thoroughly searched the area DC told us she must have gone to (because he said if she said she was going there he was certain she was in fact going there), and didn't have time to search anywhere else."
The spanner in the works is that we have no idea where ED ACTUALLY went. Continued search has to wait for snow melt. At that time, perhaps the net will be cast wider than that piece of trail, because SAR searches generally do get cast wider and wider. And I'll bet the first place they look is in the area between the Port and the Hospital/Cabane (and from there, perhaps heading up to the glacier).

The other thing that will happen when the snow is gone, is SAR will be able to search under water, and, IMO evn more important, hikers and climbers will be back in the area (if the pandemic cooperates). She could be found by indivuals exploring the area, as the woman on the AT eventually was.

 

[RedHaus]

The other thing that will happen when the snow is gone, is SAR will be able to search under water, and, IMO evn more important, hikers and climbers will be back in the area (if the pandemic cooperates). She could be found by indivuals exploring the area, as the woman on the AT eventually was.

Yes, excellent recent posts by RickshawFan, Hatty, Puzzles, etc. And welcome back, @Hatty!!

@Satchie, I like your points here. In particular, the reminder to us all that we don't believe the Boum de Vanesque has been searched yet (since SAR was in rescue, not recovery mode last Nov. / Dec.). I think that will be a key search area. It is the large, very deep lake at the foot of the backside of pic de Sauvegarde and accessible via trails.

click on image to enlarge...

 

[stmarysmead]

Mountain rescuer who fell 500ft trying to help lockdown flouters will be in a wheelchair for life

Maybe off topic ...Just saw this article and it reminded me how selfless and dedicated these mountain rescuers are....how dangerous their work is...and how they put the lives and safety of others before their own. I mean, on one level we KNOW this...but news like this just brings it home in a powerful way.

This man will now be in a wheelchair for life. Just wanted to recognize their bravery and their dedication for a moment.

 

[Seni]

Hi @Seni,


With all respect, I don't understand to what you refer in your last sentence, because I can't pinpoint how the huge operation or difficult weather or Covid or people's lives at risk might relate to LE withholding information from us.

I didn't want to ignore a post made in response to one of mine, and I apologize if I've misunderstood either your question or your statement. I'll aim for a better reply if you can please rephrase them for clarification. Thanks, Seni.

Respectfully snipped.

No worries Puzzles, Sorry for any confusion in my posts. I do not think LE has attempted to withhold info, my reponse was to your post:


"As some reports describe actual sniffer dogs were used, I wonder if they provided any clues to Esther's whereabouts, withheld from us".


As regards the scope of the investigation, IMO it was large, on both sides of the border,

Many papers have reported on this.


Here, an example from mainstream Spanish paper:

El temporal obliga a suspender la búsqueda de la excursionista británica desaparecida en los Pirineos

(Quick translation) :

The rescue teams of the Spanish Guardia Civil have combed large areas of the Pyrenees during recent days

After a week of intense searches, yesterday, an operation made up of experts from the mountain rescue and intervention teams of the Guardia Civial from Benasque, Boltaña, Huesca and Jaca, as well as the Huesca Air Unit, again scanned extensive areas of the Pyrenees trying to find a trace of the missing woman, without any success. The teams were divided amongst different areas: the Salenques crest, the Coronas refuge, the Literola valley, the Perdiguero peak and the Estós valley, they reported to the Huesca Command Unit. Troops based in Vielha, as well members of the Val d'Aran fire brigade, also joined in to search the Catalan side.

 

[Seni]

Snipped for focus.

It does occur to me how this could be true. LE seems to have had very negative feedback from the public because there was a lockdown and no one should have been hiking in France, and LE was out there mounting a big search.
Under those conditions, if I were LE, I wouldn't be out there broadcasting status or scope.

Thanks Rickshaw,

French authorities immediately faced a backlash when they featured ED's case on their website asking people to look out for her.

They got some very heavy replies, people furious at what she was doing in spite of the Covid and weather conditions, travelling alone etc.

In fact, the police issued a message calling for calm. This is on first thread somewhere.

We know that in the joint search effort, it was the French who sent helicopter, drones, search teams in coordination with the Spanish, who sent in more human teams, dogs, fire brigade.

It could not be a worse time of year to have to undertake such a mission for all parties involved.

IMO

 

[Puzzles]

Hi @Seni,

Your reply to my post, and to Ricksaw's, have underlined how intensive the searches for Esther have been.
Also, I don't recall reading such a forceful description of the fury unleashed in reaction to Esther's conduct. I understand so clearly now – all those LE and SAR people having to be out in very dangerous conditions and during lockdown as well, risking their lives to search for someone who shouldn't have been travelling anywhere at all.
Thank you.

 

[RickshawFan]

DC states the French police didn't want her clothing/samples from him, but maybe the Spanish SAR/LE did? Is that what we think?

Snipped for focus

Maybe LE got samples from the van? And, yes, maybe it got deduced somewhere along the way that ED did NOT in fact go into France. Maybe they haven't said why they knew that. Maybe they haven't told DC how they knew that... So many possibilities.

LE does seem to have concluded ED did not get to the Refuge.

One of the problems that I'd guess will have arisen regarding the dogs on the French side: any clothes of ED's that DC provided would presumably have DC's scent on them. In the meantime, he was evidently searching along trails where he thought she might be found and stayed two nights at the Refuge. How would a pooch know not to track DC's scent and fix on ED's? Maybe @Seni knows....

 

[RickshawFan]

Respectfully snipped.

No worries Puzzles, Sorry for any confusion in my posts. I do not think LE has attempted to withhold info, my reponse was to your post:


"As some reports describe actual sniffer dogs were used, I wonder if they provided any clues to Esther's whereabouts, withheld from us".


As regards the scope of the investigation, IMO it was large, on both sides of the border,

Many papers have reported on this.


Here, an example from mainstream Spanish paper:

El temporal obliga a suspender la búsqueda de la excursionista británica desaparecida en los Pirineos

(Quick translation) :

The rescue teams of the Spanish Guardia Civil have combed large areas of the Pyrenees during recent days

After a week of intense searches, yesterday, an operation made up of experts from the mountain rescue and intervention teams of the Guardia Civial from Benasque, Boltaña, Huesca and Jaca, as well as the Huesca Air Unit, again scanned extensive areas of the Pyrenees trying to find a trace of the missing woman, without any success. The teams were divided amongst different areas: the Salenques crest, the Coronas refuge, the Literola valley, the Perdiguero peak and the Estós valley, they reported to the Huesca Command Unit. Troops based in Vielha, as well members of the Val d'Aran fire brigade, also joined in to search the Catalan side.

Wow, what a fantastic addition to the conversation, @Seni . These geographical areas are so specific, we can now look them up on a map. They had a huge number of SAR folks involved.

******

I need to make a plea because the dossier point about dogs could end up in an unfortunate (IMO) place ...... PLEASE don't even hint SAR gave anything other than their max. You might just be the next person they have to rescue. We count on these folks to help us in some of the most treasured places we have left in the world. They make it possible to enjoy those spaces in relative safety. Plus, SAR is an art, not just a skill. They grid searches out, but they also use intuition, problem-solving, specialized equipment, technical skill, teamwork, and have to make often extreme judgments on the fly. We need every single one of them, their whole beings.
If you want to see how crazy SAR can get, you can read SAR reports like the official compilation (from Oregon TV sources) of lost hiker reports from an SAR team out of Bend, Oregon. I find these fascinating. This fella's entire compilation is here: Several lost hiker incidents near Sisters, Oregon, resolved by SAR
This could keep you busy for a while! They are dated, but same old, same old.

Incidentally, if you get a chance to browse around in this, you can get an idea what kinds of equipment ED would have been expected to carry, even in summer. Again, this material is from the designated official report-writer for Bend OR SAR.

If you want a quick snapshot of a rescue and why concerns about SAR's work are poorly (IMO) placed, try these:
Death in the Presidential Range: The Kate Matrosova Incident - SectionHiker.com
Too Cold: The Death of Kate Matrosova - Appalachian Mountain Club

 

[RickshawFan]

French authorities immediately faced a backlash when they featured ED's case on their website asking people to look out for her.

Snipped for focus

The citation is here: Gendarmes to scale down search for British hiker Esther Dingley in Pyrenees

and it says:
"On its Facebook Page the Peleton de Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne has put out a research alert and appeal for witnesses which reportedly prompted some negative responses, over lockdown rules in France banning hiking.

The appeal insists: “This message is aimed at saving a human life. Even if we understand the emotions raised by this behaviour during a period of lockdown, please do not comment on this subject. We are faced with an emergency here.”

 

[PeggyHenry]

Mountain rescuer who fell 500ft trying to help lockdown flouters will be in a wheelchair for life

Maybe off topic ...Just saw this article and it reminded me how selfless and dedicated these mountain rescuers are....how dangerous their work is...and how they put the lives and safety of others before their own. I mean, on one level we KNOW this...but news like this just brings it home in a powerful way.

This man will now be in a wheelchair for life. Just wanted to recognize their bravery and their dedication for a moment.

In fact I’ve just been watching BBC breakfast which highlighted this incident and ran a feature on the Patterdale Rescue team and how they risk their lives as volunteers.
The recent posts on SAR have been so informative. Hiking is a serious business. I can now understand the tone of the comment left by the french lady who shared food with Esther. I understand resentment to those who, probably unintentionally but ignorantly put others’ lives at risk... e. G hiking during lockdown, insufficient equipment or nutrition etc. It throws a slightly different perspective on this, especially for people like me who haven’t been exposed to this environment so much. If Esther was hiking during lockdown, potentially with unsatisfactory food supplies, then what other risks might she have taken e.g going off beaten track.

 

[patCee]

DBM

 

[IrisElizabeth]

Wow, what a fantastic addition to the conversation, @Seni . These geographical areas are so specific, we can now look them up on a map. They had a huge number of SAR folks involved.

******

I need to make a plea because the dossier point about dogs could end up in an unfortunate (IMO) place ...... PLEASE don't even hint SAR gave anything other than their max. You might just be the next person they have to rescue. We count on these folks to help us in some of the most treasured places we have left in the world. They make it possible to enjoy those spaces in relative safety. Plus, SAR is an art, not just a skill. They grid searches out, but they also use intuition, problem-solving, specialized equipment, technical skill, teamwork, and have to make often extreme judgments on the fly. We need every single one of them, their whole beings.
If you want to see how crazy SAR can get, you can read SAR reports like the official compilation (from Oregon TV sources) of lost hiker reports from an SAR team out of Bend, Oregon. I find these fascinating. This fella's entire compilation is here: Several lost hiker incidents near Sisters, Oregon, resolved by SAR
This could keep you busy for a while! They are dated, but same old, same old.

Incidentally, if you get a chance to browse around in this, you can get an idea what kinds of equipment ED would have been expected to carry, even in summer. Again, this material is from the designated official report-writer for Bend OR SAR.

If you want a quick snapshot of a rescue and why concerns about SAR's work are poorly (IMO) placed, try these:
Death in the Presidential Range: The Kate Matrosova Incident - SectionHiker.com
Too Cold: The Death of Kate Matrosova - Appalachian Mountain Club

I 100% agree with your post. When I pointed out that DC specifically said the French SAR didn't use sniffer dogs that wasn't meant of a critique of SAR by me at all - more wondering why DC specifically made this point in the dossier particularly as he must have know how intensive the search was. Was he hinting at something that hasn't been made public by doing this?

 

[RickshawFan]

I 100% agree with your post. When I pointed out that DC specifically said the French SAR didn't use sniffer dogs that wasn't meant of a critique of SAR by me at all - more wondering why DC specifically made this point in the dossier particularly as he must have know how intensive the search was. Was he hinting at something that hasn't been made public by doing this?

Thanks @IrisElizabeth . To clarify, I didn't mean to imply you or anyone on this board is criticizing SAR. It's just that we enter tricky territory, IMO, if we make that particular detail a "thing".
There are many many items in the dossier that I don't take as gospel, because they are clearly point-of-view, but the one about SAR? I wouldn't touch that one with a 10-foot pole.

 

[Seni]

Snippet regarding the French search:

Randonneuse disparue dans les Pyrénées : un mois plus tard, la thèse de l'accident est privilégiée

"Men from the Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne (PGHM) Platoon of Bagnères-de-Luchon criss-crossed the search area, in collaboration with Guardia Civil teams, on the basis of the young woman’s initial itinerary. Their search was supported by a dozen soldiers from the mountain group of the Saint-Gaudens brigade as well as by a canine team. A helicopter and a drone were also mobilised".

 

[RickshawFan]

Snippet regarding the French search:

Randonneuse disparue dans les Pyrénées : un mois plus tard, la thèse de l'accident est privilégiée

"Men from the Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne (PGHM) Platoon of Bagnères-de-Luchon criss-crossed the search area, in collaboration with Guardia Civil teams, on the basis of the young woman’s initial itinerary. Their search was supported by a dozen soldiers from the mountain group of the Saint-Gaudens brigade as well as by a canine team. A helicopter and a drone were also mobilised".

This is what impressed me from this passage and the one you quoted above @Seni : it was a COLOSSAL search. They didn't stint on ANYTHING. Unbelievable, really, that they could mobilize so many resources. They had it all, except maybe a mini-submarine, which would be TOTALLY uncalled for in these mountains, not because there aren't bodies of water (indeed ED might have fallen into one), but because a mini-sub would be about recovery, not rescue. Unfortunately, recovery can wait til spring, if needed.