Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[stmarysmead]

In fairness to Dan, I wish we could discuss the possible criminal third party aspect of this, but where to start? If Esther stayed on the trail as he believes she did, the most likely crime scene would be the refuge. And, unfortunately, it presents a near perfect location for both a crime and a coverup...especially on a late November night, during a pandemic.

‘Likewise, her propensity and high comfort level with hitching puts her easily under someone’s control and that person could have transported her anywhere.

Esther trusted strangers easily. It’s an endearing quality but IMO also a worrisome one.

 

[RickshawFan]

Snipped by me for focus.

At the risk of making sweeping generalisations, sounding very judgemental, and over-simplifying things, I think it comes down to one word ... class. I see that Sundaaaay has already beaten me to it on this point (post #748) and added other plausible explanations. Esther had a very expensive education, got a degree from one of the world's top universities, and has been "living the dream" for the last 6 years. I mean, she even represented her country at rowing back in her early days!

There are dozens, possibly hundreds, of people who go missing in the UK every day, but very, very few of them will be Esther's equal either in their socio-economic status or in terms of their lifestyle opportunities / choices. Their disappearances don't generate newspaper sales or click-through ad revenue.

To me, what your saying, NN, is "where it's at" to a large extent, but not completely. IMO the demographic/socioeconomic tilt may have helped along another element of the case, because, unlike many cases, this one has a PR agency keeping the topic in the news.
Along these lines:
The clickbait has been magnified by media and a PR agency's focus on the possibility of something other than an accident. If the general consensus was ED had an accident (as is the judgment of Spanish LE and SAR from their abundant experience), then, with the onset of winter, publicity might have backed off, as it does for many accident cases. It might have picked up again in the spring when the snow recedes, but just as likely not.
Instead, just as the first snows blanketed the region and made more searching impossible, the "other than accident" theories began to make their rounds. This, too, served as clickbait and kept the story alive when we might have moved on.

IMO, for many sad reasons, this case was an accident, and we may have more information about the details in the spring. Or not. For, as LE has said bluntly, nature has many casualties in the Pyrenees and can hide them for years.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Snipped by me for focus.

At the risk of making sweeping generalisations, sounding very judgemental, and over-simplifying things, I think it comes down to one word ... class. I see that Sundaaaay has already beaten me to it on this point (post #748) and added other plausible explanations. Esther had a very expensive education, got a degree from one of the world's top universities, and has been "living the dream" for the last 6 years. I mean, she even represented her country at rowing back in her early days!

There are dozens, possibly hundreds, of people who go missing in the UK every day, but very, very few of them will be Esther's equal either in their socio-economic status or in terms of their lifestyle opportunities / choices. Their disappearances don't generate newspaper sales or click-through ad revenue.

It’s an actual thing:

Missing white woman syndrome is a term used by social scientists[1][2][3] and media commentators to refer to extensive media coverage, especially in television,[4] of missing person cases involving young, white, upper-middle-class women or girls. The term is used to describe the Western media's[citation needed]disproportionate focus on upper-middle-class white women who disappear, compared to coverage of missing women of color, women of lower social classes and missing men or boys.[5][6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome

 

[Puzzles]

It’s an actual thing:

Missing white woman syndrome is a term used by social scientists[1][2][3] and media commentators to refer to extensive media coverage, especially in television,[4] of missing person cases involving young, white, upper-middle-class women or girls. The term is used to describe the Western media's[citation needed]disproportionate focus on upper-middle-class white women who disappear, compared to coverage of missing women of color, women of lower social classes and missing men or boys.[5][6]
Missing white woman syndrome - Wikipedia

Sometimes I click on 'Like' because I agree with the content of a post: a theory presented; a question asked; new information provided to us.

Sometimes I 'Like' a post when although I don't hold the same opinion as the sleuth, I appreciate how well it's presented and supported.

Here, @CoverMeCagney provides support for a theory presented by other sleuths upthread which I'd believed, until now, was absurd.

I 'Like' CGC's post because it illuminates my ignorance of the way our world is constructed.

I'm also saddened and disgusted by it.

 

[Huffbuff]

DBM

 

[RickshawFan]

It’s an actual thing:

Missing white woman syndrome is a term used by social scientists[1][2][3] and media commentators to refer to extensive media coverage, especially in television,[4] of missing person cases involving young, white, upper-middle-class women or girls. The term is used to describe the Western media's[citation needed]disproportionate focus on upper-middle-class white women who disappear, compared to coverage of missing women of color, women of lower social classes and missing men or boys.[5][6]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
Missing white woman syndrome - Wikipedia

Yes, indeedee. It's even better if the women are blonde.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Yes, indeedee. It's even better if the women are blonde.

Or pretty

 

[miekei]

I think you may be doing the witness a slight disservice here. She mentioned quite specifically that she saw a person with light brown hair lying on the bed, I'm really struggling to see how bats under the street lights could induce such a vision.

Just would like to point out that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be unreliable-- it deteriorates rapidly with time (significant fading within 20 minutes), and is easily overridden by circumstances. Although witnesses are often very confident that their memory is accurate, the malleable/plastic nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence.

 

[stmarysmead]

Just would like to point out that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be unreliable-- it deteriorates rapidly with time (significant fading within 20 minutes), and is easily overridden by circumstances. Although witnesses are often very confident that their memory is accurate, the malleable/plastic nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence.

When did she report the sighting? I thought it was immediately. And the police immediately responded with that bizarre explanation.

 

[stmarysmead]

To me, what your saying, NN, is "where it's at" to a large extent, but not completely. IMO the demographic/socioeconomic tilt may have helped along another element of the case, because, unlike many cases, this one has a PR agency keeping the topic in the news.
Along these lines:
The clickbait has been magnified by media and a PR agency's focus on the possibility of something other than an accident. If the general consensus was ED had an accident (as is the judgment of Spanish LE and SAR from their abundant experience), then, with the onset of winter, publicity might have backed off, as it does for many accident cases. It might have picked up again in the spring when the snow recedes, but just as likely not.
Instead, just as the first snows blanketed the region and made more searching impossible, the "other than accident" theories began to make their rounds. This, too, served as clickbait and kept the story alive when we might have moved on.

IMO, for many sad reasons, this case was an accident, and we may have more information about the details in the spring. Or not. For, as LE has said bluntly, nature has many casualties in the Pyrenees and can hide them for years.

I was thinking along these lines as well. IMO, it appears Dan was already in the middle of a media blitz for the books, and therefore was able to utilize those contacts to get enormous outreach almost immediately on Esther’s disappearance.

Exactly what I would have done as well.

And yes, the emphasis on this as a mystery and a crime has kept the interest percolating. But articles in the New York Times or the Charlotte Observer are not likely to reach the audience of people who might possess key information.

Beyond creating media interest and/or clickbait, what else has been done by private individuals and entities to develop information? If there is a real belief that Esther is alive and being held against her will somewhere, what has been done in the most likely areas where she might be? Surely time is of the essence?

Have they offered a reward for a sighting or put up posters in mountain villages, ski lodges, grocery stores, second hand shops in the surrounding area? Often businesses and friends generously offer to underwrite such incentives. These are things that could be done now...in the winter.

Esther is not going to turn up in Brooklyn, or Mount Pilot. Getting her name out worldwide is not the same as getting her picture and a financial incentive out to the areas where she is most likely to be.

 

[PeggyHenry]

Just would like to point out that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be unreliable-- it deteriorates rapidly with time (significant fading within 20 minutes), and is easily overridden by circumstances. Although witnesses are often very confident that their memory is accurate, the malleable/plastic nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence.

Whilst I agree that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be unreliable, I dont think that really applies so much in this context. If a witness has to use recall to describe, say, a burglar, or man driving a car from an accident scene, then yes. If police came to interview the witness a few days after he has seen a burglar then what he recalls may not be accurate for various reasons. In this case, the dog walker is able to take stock of her surroundings and the camper van and have a look. At that time, she understands the significance of seeing a light on and observing what is going on. She can then report this to the police in her own time, confident that what she reports is accurate. On the other hand, compare this situation to another in which the police knock on her door a day later and ask her recall what she saw when she took her dog out walking the previous day... her testimony may be less accurate.

In this case she is observing and noticing the van with a view to reporting her observations - so quite different.

 

[Grouse]

Whilst I agree that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be unreliable

Has it? Do you have a link to evidence of that being proven? I know it was in the Daily Fail but that in itself doesn't make it unreliable IMO.

I dont think that really applies so much in this context.

No I don't think it does at all. There's a whole world of difference between, say, being able to reliably identify a face you saw a few days ago (I get how that sort of memory might begin to fade after 20 minutes) , and being able recall a factual event such as whether or not you saw someone lying in a van (that sort of memory does not fade like that after 20 minutes).

 

[Grouse]

So maybe that officer was "living" in the van for those few days, until their plans got scuppered and this covert operation was blown open & therefore forced to stop?

RSBM and BBM - a covert operation with the light on all evening??

 

[PeggyHenry]

Has it? Do you have a link to evidence of that being proven? I know it was in the Daily Fail but that in itself doesn't make it unreliable IMO.



No I don't think it does at all. There's a whole world of difference between, say, being able to reliably identify a face you saw a few days ago (I get how that sort of memory might begin to fade after 20 minutes) , and being able recall a factual event such as whether or not you saw someone lying in a van (that sort of memory does not fade like that after 20 minutes).

There are numerous research studies on eyewitness testimony in the field of psychology. I’ve just quickly found one article to demonstrate.. but again, I don’t feel it’s relevant to our case of the dog Walker observing the camper van. That isn’t eyewitness testimony as we know it


Rethinking the Reliability of Eyewitness Memory


.entryAuthor" data-author-container-selector=".NLM_contrib-group">
John T. WixtedLaura Mickes, Ronald P. Fisher
First Published May 2, 2018 Research Article




Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence
Stephen L. Chew, Samford University
August 20, 2018

 

[patCee]

Search for missing Pyrenees backpacker Esther Dingley, 37, may not resume for up to FIVE MONTHS | Daily Mail Online

'Police forces in Spain and France leading a separate probe to try to establish if the Oxford Uni graduate was the victim of a crime are thought to have made no headway'.

Sergeant Jorge Lopez Ramos head of mountain rescue in Benasque also......

'He also ruled out a voluntary disappearance, rubbishing claims they were having the relationship difficulties a witness who spent time with Esther before she vanished told police about'.

 

[PeggyHenry]

Search for missing Pyrenees backpacker Esther Dingley, 37, may not resume for up to FIVE MONTHS | Daily Mail Online

'Police forces in Spain and France leading a separate probe to try to establish if the Oxford Uni graduate was the victim of a crime are thought to have made no headway'.

Sergeant Jorge Lopez Ramos head of mountain rescue in Benasque also......

'He also ruled out a voluntary disappearance, rubbishing claims they were having the relationship difficulties a witness who spent time with Esther before she vanished told police about'.

That post is slightly misleading if you don’t mind me saying so patCee ... in that report it states that it is DC who ‘also ruled out a voluntary disappearance.... etc’ not Sergeant Ramos!

 

[patCee]

That post is slightly misleading if you don’t mind me saying so patCee ... in that report it states that it is DC who ‘also ruled out a voluntary disappearance.... etc’ not Sergeant Ramos!

Thankyou PeggyHenry, you are right, my mistake. Not sure how to correct it now. At least your post is directly under mine.

 

[patCee]

'He also ruled out a voluntary disappearance, rubbishing claims they were having the relationship difficulties a witness who spent time with Esther before she vanished told police about'.

My post above 775 is incorrect that the above quote was by DC, NOT Sergeeant Jorge Lopez Ramos.

My apologises to everyone.

 

[Seni]

It’s an actual thing:

Missing white woman syndrome is a term used by social scientists[1][2][3] and media commentators to refer to extensive media coverage, especially in television,[4] of missing person cases involving young, white, upper-middle-class women or girls. The term is used to describe the Western media's[citation needed]disproportionate focus on upper-middle-class white women who disappear, compared to coverage of missing women of color, women of lower social classes and missing men or boys.[5][6]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
Missing white woman syndrome - Wikipedia

Just for the record, I'm not sure if I saw the BBC article before EF went missing or really if I saw it a day later. But it struck me because of connections:

Have several things in common with ED such as same nationality issues, Durham Uni and Huesca (Spain) with British Council. I know I went into mountains and ski-ing but cannot remember where.

I think that ED sticks in people's minds because she was either brave or foolish, went in the face of a lockdown, at a time she would have been lonely on peaks, not much likelihood of meeting anyone else or getting the food she needed.

 

[10ofRods]

Just would like to point out that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be unreliable-- it deteriorates rapidly with time (significant fading within 20 minutes), and is easily overridden by circumstances. Although witnesses are often very confident that their memory is accurate, the malleable/plastic nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence.

After years of anthropological work in criminal circumstances, I disagree that memory is *easily overridden" by circumstances. I doubt we'd survive as a species if true.

But, if there are external threats and pressures, yes, the memory does change (and in domestic situations, that's rather common). This is not one of those situations, IMO, so far as we know.

Certain details of memory are not as malleable - I could write a dissertation on that topic. People rarely forget, for example, whether an assailant is a man, woman, boy or girl. People may forget/fudge some things - but a sensitive interviewer finds that out rapidly.

We can't interview missing people, of course.

But I disagree that eyewitnesses are one of the "most unreliable forms" of evidence - and in fact, I also assert that the law agrees with me. Eyewitness evidence is pretty much the only thing that's not circumstantial. Eyewitnesses are revered throughout history. Sure, they can miss on some small detail - but perhaps you can list examples where eyewitnesses have been very wrong?

Or any other citation to back up this rather extraordinary statement. Just look through one or two day's worth of WS threads - the eyewitnesses are rarely wrong. Erika Lloyd's car was found vandalized and abandoned. Her camp was found deserted. By eyewitnesses. We could go on - but truly, I'd like to see the research on which you base this assertion, because without eyewitnesses, most criminal cases are dead in the water. So they're valuable, IMO.