Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5

Discussion in 'Missing Persons Discussion' started by FrostOwl, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. stmarysmead

    stmarysmead Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    7,582
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I’m in the US and I read it.

    A friend and I had a business together for quite a few years. We would have been thrilled with the local coverage they’d started getting...but absolutely over the moon, if we had been featured by national news. So few people have such a stroke of luck! Think of all the struggling authors...”full many a flower is born to blush unseen, and waste its sweetness on the desert air.” (Thomas Gray)

    This wasn’t happenstance. They’d been working hard to achieve coverage of their lives in order to sell their books.

    It doesn’t matter how WE view the interview...because it’s not Oprah...to a couple with a small business this should have been a wonderful, exciting advancement of their goals and dreams. Something wonderful for Esther to come home to.

    But she doesn’t even mention it. Or if she does in the last video call, Dan chooses to keep that private...while publicly repeating her personal endearments to him.

    One last thought, if Dan reads here...what area of our discussions might give him hope? I don’t think he’d be offended in the least that we discuss clues to ED’s state of mind...or that her disappearance might be related to her state of mind and not a terrible accident or a homicidal fellow hiker. Why...because that theory offers at least a semblance of hope that she is alive somewhere and he will see her again some day.
     
    fridaybaker, annemc2, Tutter and 5 others like this.


  2. stmarysmead

    stmarysmead Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    7,582
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Has anyone been able to find a quote on any of her social media where she uses this phrase...except those last two days?
     
  3. The_Investigator

    The_Investigator Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    53
    But I think we are all forgetting, these are SELECTED texts that Dan chose to put in the dossier,.. all the personal and business ones he has intentionally left out, either for personal protection reasons or for business reasons, he doesn’t want to share all those other texts,... would you? He’s only given us the ones he feels are either relevant or back up his hypothesis. I wouldn’t want the world to know my personal discussions with my partner,.. they are private,.. they are very experienced in doing public Facebook etc,.. so that is all we are going to get even from the so called personal texts,.. I.e. only the image Dan wants to give us of Esther,.. you know,... an expert, etc etc,... he’s protecting their image.
     
    BoraBora, PNW, RickshawFan and 10 others like this.
  4. The_Investigator

    The_Investigator Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Because the video call is what made her disappear? What was said that he didn’t want to think of it as their last contact, so counts their last contact as the photo instead? JMO.
     
    Muva, BoraBora, Corina and 12 others like this.
  5. Lucy6226

    Lucy6226 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    233
    Likes Received:
    2,055
    Trophy Points:
    93
    That's an interesting from a psychological point of view, you could be on to something there!
     
  6. PeggyHenry

    PeggyHenry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    93
    It is DC’ s decision about what he puts out there in terms of their private text conversations. But why deny Esther that right ? How does it help Esther that her texts to him are in the public domain?
    DC protects his own privacy and we don’t get to see a word he wrote to Esther. He didn’t have to reveal the content of Esthers messages. We don’t know what context they were written it, what was omitted, what prompted them... it is selective. One thing is sure, at first glance they all show plenty of love for DC. Perhaps that’s why.

    In an investigation like this I have no real knowledge of what an investigation team is able to see or find out in terms of texting. If I were to delete texts and WhatsApp conversation from my phone, or manipulate text etc is there a way that investigators can retrieve what was originally texted or messaged? What details can they retrieve?

    They don’t have Esthers phone but anyone who contacted her via message or text ... if a person chose to delete conversations etc is there no way of retrieving them .. I just wonder what the capability is.
     
  7. PeggyHenry

    PeggyHenry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I haven’t seen it written anywhere else at all. I can’t think of a meaningful logical explanation of her saying that other than what Rickshawfan wrote, which has the potential of ringing very true to me.
     
  8. jenpil

    jenpil Former Member

    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Trophy Points:
    93
    If the book and TV thing was that important to her, she would have mentioned it in her messages, or better yet, gone back to the house with Dan where they would have been able to have joint video interviews to online news stations. While she was away, she left it all to Dan in these later days, and I wonder if she had really lost interest in that life with him and felt a new found freedom.
    If I knew the BBC wanted to promote my book and life, I'd have made sure I was back with Dan in time to put out a united front to the press and get the books sold!
    But I think she left it to Dan as it was his idea and he was driving it. Her mind was elsewhere.
     
  9. jenpil

    jenpil Former Member

    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Trophy Points:
    93
    She's on a solo trip to start with.
    She's sleeping in the van by herself, so it isn't a big stretch that she camped out by herself.
    In fact, she slept at a cabane/refuge by herself for one night.
    She also posted a photo she took showing her solo camp for the night up a mountain. Photo attached. So, she has done it solo before. This was discussed several pages back.

    She's done it solo, but poorly prepared and not as experienced as you'd think. A bit lost without Dan.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. stmarysmead

    stmarysmead Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    7,582
    Trophy Points:
    113



    21st November
    10:07 – Leaves the motorhome - “Now going to try hitching”
    10:08 – Sends Dan photographs of her map to specify the area she will be hiking in.
    10:35 – “2 hitches so far – halfway!”
    13:11 – Reaches the top of Pic de Sauvegarde.
    “So happy....think I can see you”
    “That’s bagneres and super bagneres”
    “Love you so much XXX thank you for encouraging me and giving me this confidence...Really appreciated all the msgs to get me on my way this morning”


    So let’s look at what Dan selected for the public to know. The first message tells us when ED left. The sec0nd tells us that she provided Dan with a map so that he would know where she was hiking and the third indicates that she checks in with him about her status. The fourth message tells us that ED, a 37 yr old graduate of prestigious universities, is dependent upon Dan’s encouragement for her self-confidence and even to “get her on her way.”

    A PeggyHenry points out, ED didn't get to select what was revealed on her part. What possible assistance could this last message provide to the public in finding ED? Why did Dan include it if, he was omitting others? In other parts of the dossier, ED is described by Dan as an experienced and competent woman fully capable of hiking alone late in the year in the Pyrenees. Yet IMO this chosen text contradicts that assertion.

    Why did she say...”I think I can see you.”


    Evening – Spends the night alone at Cabana de la Besurtas on the Spanish side (Esther had no phone signal once she left the peak, but she confirmed this the following day when she returned to Pic de Sauvegarde).


    ‘IMO, this sounds like an explanation for why he didn’t hear from her for over 26 hrs. But does Dan know where she was and what she was doing until she reached the Pic late the next afternoon? If so, he doesn’t tell the public that information which IMO, would be very important. We know that he was messaging her many times. Did ED not share that information with him or did he just not share it with the public he is enlisting for information? Odd...

    22nd November
    15:29 – Returns to Pic de Sauvegarde
    15:31 – “Not much signal in this area sorry”
    “I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long but wanted you to know. Can’t wait to read all your messages. Thank you xxx.
    “Love you very much XXX having a really good time.”
    15:41 – Sends 2 selfies.
    16:04: “I’m heading off now...Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”
    16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
    “Love you xxx”
    16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36


    How does Dan know the exact minute she arrived if she did not message him until minutes later? How does he know she hasn’t been up there for 5 or 10 minutes making other calls?

    In any event, second message seems to be an indication that wherever she’s been over that 26 hrs , she states she had no WiFi signal. But is that necessarily true? ED had 26 hrs to go anywhere she wanted and if she was at the Cabane, she was near the Hospital which has WiFi. Where was she in those hours?

    Third chosen message has ED saying that she isn’t stopping long and hasn’t yet read all his messages. More thanks and affirmation of her love for him. But she did stay up there almost 30 minutes. With lots of WiFi.

    Now, of course, it’s possible that they had long conversations in the next 25 or so minutes but if so, why omit even a reference to them? It doesn’t make sense IMO that he’d include a 1;36 call and not use the same format to report other calls that show they were really communicating, celebrating...doing what partners do when they miss each other and have much to share. He didn’t have to report their dialogue...he certainly hid whatever was said in their last words.

    The 16:04 text is the strangest of all. It sounds like she actually might be heading down the path to meet him. Did he ask “When are you leaving?’ And she answered “Im heading off now.” Did he ask her to text him when she reached a certain point? ‘Maybe have signal, not sure.” Then...again...she “thinks she can see him’ far below.

    Who is she seeing? Was there a missed meeting with someone the day before...rescheduled for the 22nd?

    Finally, he provides the text with ED’s vague itinerary. And then the final exchange that Dan elects to keep private. Wouldn’t that normally just be another loving goodbye like what he has revealed before? Why is it a WHatsApp instead of a text? Why the instantaneous change? Like others, I wonder if video calls are retrievable by investigators.

     
  11. PeggyHenry

    PeggyHenry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Great post.. will need to digest properly.
     
    RickshawFan and The_Investigator like this.
  12. Puzzles

    Puzzles Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    2,399
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Snipped for focus and BBM

    It would appear forensics could recover information from DC's phone, including texts and videos, unless they were encrypted. Deleted data can also be restored.

    Below is a segment from an article which also provides details about the methods used to retrieve data. Seems success depends on how much time has passed prior to initiation of the process, as information might be overwritten. How Do Forensic Analysts Get Deleted Data From Your Phone?

    "...Which Types of Files Can Be Recovered?

    The types of recoverable files may depend on the device a forensic analyst is working on. However, there are a few basic types that are likely to be recovered:

    • Text messages and iMessages
    • Call history
    • Emails
    • Notes
    • Contacts
    • Calendar events
    • Images and videos
    It's also possible that investigators can trace deleted WhatsApp messages---unless they were encrypted. If you use your Android for file storage, those files might still be hanging around in storage, too."
     
  13. FrostOwl

    FrostOwl -

    Messages:
    3,173
    Likes Received:
    5,753
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wonder if ED might have suffered from SAD (seasonal affective disorder)? October is a month when it often begins, and if she had SAD, I can see how she might have disliked the thought of having to stay locked up in a house. Didn't they use to spend time during the winters in southern Spain? What SAD sufferers crave is sunshine, and when it's gray and cloudy, it can feel as getting up and out is a too difficult task. If ED did have SAD, it would have been recurring each autumn, and DC would have known the signs. Maybe that's why he pushed/nagged her to get up and out in the mornings?
     
    Kasmeer, sassyblue, Flicka1 and 2 others like this.
  14. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

    Messages:
    6,023
    Likes Received:
    18,934
    Trophy Points:
    113
    IMO ED had figured out DC was on his way.... That's not something she wanted to deal with. But "I can see you" may easily mean "I know you're there".
     
  15. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

    Messages:
    6,023
    Likes Received:
    18,934
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There's a WORLD of difference between sleeping in a Campervan and sleeping by yourself in winter on the ground in the backcountry.
     
  16. jenpil

    jenpil Former Member

    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    1,545
    Trophy Points:
    93
    ??????

    Yes, but Esther did both. We know she slept out in a tent and sleeping bag on the mountains at least once.
     
  17. RickshawFan

    RickshawFan Verified Outdoor Recreation Specialist

    Messages:
    6,023
    Likes Received:
    18,934
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can anyone identify the col? I just thought it was odd to claim you are at a col/peak when they're opposites.
     
  18. RedHaus

    RedHaus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    1,266
    Trophy Points:
    93
    @RickshawFan, excellent question. There are a few ED text statements from the dossier that truly confound me. And I agree with you, this is one of them:

    22/11, 15:31 – “Not much signal in this area sorry. I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long but wanted you to know...."

    And here is why it confounds me:

    1) If ED was at the pic de Sauvegarde summit per the dossier - based likely on the analysis by LE of the mast from where and when her cell phone pinged - she would have excellent cell service and ED knew that from her summit the day before. So on 22/11, why say "Not much signal in this area" unless ED was not actually on the summit?

    2) If ED was at the pic de Sauvegarde summit, why not just say that rather than "I'm on a col/peak...". Why not name the peak you are on? And to your point, RickshawFan, why say col/peak, when clearly the summit is not a col. From what little I know there is a difference. Could ED have been on an un-named col near by?

    3) If ED was at the pic de Sauvegarde summit and was concerned about the late time of day (15:31) is that why she said "... so can't stop for too long"? If so, then why did ED proceed to stay past 16:08, at least 37 more minutes? What if ED was not on the summit, but was on her way somewhere? What if she stopped briefly at 15:29 when she got her first cell signal in 26 hours, started hiking again at 15:31, then took a break, and at 16:04 texted I’m heading off now… I think I can see you !!!”

    Of course another explanation to these odd words is ED's mental state, which we have examined as honestly and gently as we can. But for a moment, let's suspend the idea that ED was at all mentally or emotionally compromised. And let's also suspend the long held belief here that ED was on the pic de Sauvegarde summit 22/11?

    I am not a cell phone expert, but I know it is very difficult to identify a cell phone location based on a single mast ping. Usually it takes some sort of triangulation between multiple cell masts to identify a cell phone location. In this case, IMO, ED could have been close to the pic de Sauvegarde cell mast, but not on the summit.

    This takes us back to Page 18 of Thread #2 (and perhaps Thread #1), where many of us explored in great detail the possibility that ED was NOT on the summit of pic de Sauvegarde at 15:29 on 22/11. That may be an assumption by LE and DC based on ED's phone pinging off of the summit cell mast. It also takes us back to our endless examination of the selfie ED sent DC on 22/11 and whether that was just another shot (later in the day) from 21/11. I still believe both of these are possibilities.

    We have long since moved on from those sleuthing efforts, but your question this evening, RickshawFan, has brought me full circle. So I am revisiting this...

    We know that Marti Vigo del Arco and his girlfriend saw ED at 15:00 on 22/11. We are not sure where they saw ED on the trail. But some of us, including me, thought they met below the port de Vanesque. If true, that opens the possibility that rather than summiting pic de Sauvegarde again, ED could have headed through the port de Vanesque. I suspect she could have stopped there, checked for cell service, and with not a lot but enough service ("not much signal in this area"), ED sent her texts and read her messages, etc. Depending on where on the ascent she met Mr. del Arco, ED could have even made it through the port de Vanesque, past the Refuge de Vanesque (we discovered a trail that goes high above the refuge for a direct line past it) and gotten back into cell service by 15:29 when she first got a signal. See the image below, which is my attempt to show where ED may have been when she got that cell signal on 22/11 and made texts / video chat. This of course is all IMO.

    Could locations #2 and #3 be cols?
    upload_2021-3-9_1-0-32.png Click image to enlarge it.

    So why does this matter? Of course this could affect the search area for ED's remains if she had a tragic accident or committed suicide in those areas. But if ED was not at the summit of pic de Sauvegarde on 22/11, given the rest of her texts that day, it also means she may have been striving to get somewhere that evening - perhaps she had a personal goal, or she was planning to meet someone, or she was already executing her voluntary disappearance and being evasive with DC. If for instance, at 16:08 on 22/11 ED was as far along as location #3 in my image above, I believe she could have made it to Hospice de France (all down hill) by dark.

    Hospice de France has a parking lot and access to a road. Could ED have met someone there - friend or foe? Could ED have been aiming to get to Hospice de France to meet DC, stating at 16:04 on her way there "...I think I can see you !!!” since from point #3 (above) she'd have had a clear shot of her destination?

    And IMO, this also opens the possibility ED stayed at Hospice de France 22/11 and hiked / hitched to Luchon 23/11, like ED told Jose Antonio Ballarin 21/11 she would, and like she may have told DC when ED stated, "Might dip into France". Some here have opined what ED meant was visit a proper town or city in France.

    Sources:
    1. Dossier: https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf
    2. Wiki Definition of Col
    3. Esther Dingley: Olympic skier 'saw' missing British hiker on day she disappeared in Pyrenees
    4. Missing Esther Dingley's secrets, by the last man to see her alive | Daily Mail Online
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
    Muva, Huffbuff, RickshawFan and 6 others like this.
  19. PeggyHenry

    PeggyHenry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Trophy Points:
    93
    this has to be a possibility - it ties some of the loose ends together nicely, especially the col/ peak comment which seemed odd and also the conversation with Ballarin. This is such a detailed post so a lot to digest but on first reading it seems to fit so well with not only the facts, but our gleanings and intuitive feeling from the extra details that we have scrutinised.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
    Muva, RickshawFan, Puzzles and 2 others like this.
  20. stmarysmead

    stmarysmead Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    7,582
    Trophy Points:
    113
    BRILLANT POST!
     
    Muva, Puzzles and RedHaus like this.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice