Exactly - in NZ a common reason trampers go missing is because they get lost off the trails.
Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5
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Exactly - in NZ a common reason trampers go missing is because they get lost off the trails.
Federico_A
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I guess you're right. In that case I have to question the lammergeier's strategy of dropping bones onto a slope where they are less likely to land with full impact.
Just looking at Google Earth again - there are any number of similar rocky slopes between Porte de Venasque and Port de Glere on the French side that would serve just as well for the vultures. It's surprising the birds would chose the one with a hiking route going down the middle of it. I guess more bones will be found if the other slopes are searched; probably difficult, but that might allow them to triangulate the point of Esther's disappearance (a long shot, I know).
And such a shame.
It's clearly a very popular and renowned trekking area.
I'm actualy suprised that remains weren't found before, given the proximity to paved roads, huts, and what seems like generous amounts of foot traffic in the videos.
I have to think the fact that the French / Spanish border and COVID-19 closures earlier meant that fewer people were actually going that close to the international borders, which appear to be along the ridgeline of the peaks.
It's clearly a very popular and renowned trekking area.
I'm actualy suprised that remains weren't found before, given the proximity to paved roads, huts, and what seems like generous amounts of foot traffic in the videos.
I have to think the fact that the French / Spanish border and COVID-19 closures earlier meant that fewer people were actually going that close to the international borders, which appear to be along the ridgeline of the peaks.
On Dec 2, eleven days after he last heard from her, Dan was already convinced that Esther was not on the mountain and that she did not have an accident.
"Exhaustive searches of mountain trails in the Pyrenees between France and Spain have found no trace of the hiker who was last heard from 11 days ago.
And rescue teams backed by drones, helicopters and dogs have now told her distraught partner they are now convinced she is not on the mountain. ...
Her plan had been to hike to the Pic de Sauvegarde, and then walk the eight miles from Port de la Gléré to Port de Venasque, before hiking down from the mountains on Wednesday." (link)
On Nov 29, all media was reporting Port de la Glere first.And rescue teams backed by drones, helicopters and dogs have now told her distraught partner they are now convinced she is not on the mountain. ...
Her plan had been to hike to the Pic de Sauvegarde, and then walk the eight miles from Port de la Gléré to Port de Venasque, before hiking down from the mountains on Wednesday." (link)
"The mountain gendarmerie unit in Bagneres-de-Luchon said teams had been out on Sunday in the area between Port de la Glère and Port de Vénasque." (Esther Dingley search: Six teams look for her in Pyrenees)
Dan would have realized that there are no trails between Pic de Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere, but initial reports were that this was her route. Since there are no trails, it only made sense that she would go first to the Refuge de Venasque and then loop to the Port de la Glere, but perhaps that was not the plan.
If not from Dan, where did this information come from?
Is it possible that she planned to hike the ridge from Pic de Sauvegarde to Port de la Glere, maybe "dip into France" to Refuge de Venasque, then Port de Venasque and then down the mountain? Was this what she meant by challenging herself - to hike a new route?
If it is her skull, this route explains the location, the fact that there was no communication after Pic du Sauvegarde, and no evidence of her at the Refuge.
The difference between Dan, and other hikers, noticing the skull is that Dan may have been looking for colour associated with her backpack, tent, or coat. In addition to believing, within days of her disappearance, that she was not on the mountain, I doubt he was looking for a bone or hair.
Hikers who were not looking for Esther noticed the skull and hair. What's interesting is that even though hair is attached to skin, her hair is with her skull. That suggests to me that the skull and hair have been there for a long time. If birds are involved, they would have used the hair for nesting.
Her backpack and other bones may be farther down the mountain.
RickshawFan
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It's very typical for remains not to be found, even very near trails. They may not show up (and even then serendipitously) until years later.
Spain SAR/LE knows this. They said as much before the snow came. Were it not for publicity, I think they wouldn't have resumed in spring. Mountains return the dead whenever they feel like it, sometimes years later, and sometimes never.
These remains could actually be from someone else entirely that is on France's/Spain's register of missing people or unreported.
This bold info in the link (below) is one fact that has never made sense. I'm curious whether Dan made assumption early on that influenced the search, such as: "dipping into France" meant entering France within the hour, and that she was too experienced to suffer an accident.
From the summit in the late afternoon (her second hike to the summit in 2 days), she said that on the following day she was heading to the Port de la Glere and that she might dip into France. After she mentions dipping into France, she mentions the Refuge.
Dan assumes this means that she will immediately dip into France after descending the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde, stay overnight at the Refuge de Venasque in France, and on the following day she will hike in France from the Refuge de Venasque to the Port de la Glere.
It's equally possible that she descended the summit, remained in Spain and returned to the same Refuge where she slept the previous evening. The following morning she hiked from the Refuge in Spain to the Port de la Glere. This means returning to the trailhead and then following a different trail to the Port de la Glere.
Was she scouting animal trails between Pic de Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere during her two hikes to the summit?
It doesn't make sense that she said she might dip into France, but Dan assumed that she immediately entered France to stay at the Refuge de Venasque. She could read a map and would know that crossing the Port de Venasque meant entering France. That's different than heading to Port de la Glere and maybe dipping into France.
"22nd November
https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf
From the summit in the late afternoon (her second hike to the summit in 2 days), she said that on the following day she was heading to the Port de la Glere and that she might dip into France. After she mentions dipping into France, she mentions the Refuge.
Dan assumes this means that she will immediately dip into France after descending the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde, stay overnight at the Refuge de Venasque in France, and on the following day she will hike in France from the Refuge de Venasque to the Port de la Glere.
It's equally possible that she descended the summit, remained in Spain and returned to the same Refuge where she slept the previous evening. The following morning she hiked from the Refuge in Spain to the Port de la Glere. This means returning to the trailhead and then following a different trail to the Port de la Glere.
Was she scouting animal trails between Pic de Sauvegarde and Port de la Glere during her two hikes to the summit?
It doesn't make sense that she said she might dip into France, but Dan assumed that she immediately entered France to stay at the Refuge de Venasque. She could read a map and would know that crossing the Port de Venasque meant entering France. That's different than heading to Port de la Glere and maybe dipping into France.
"22nd November
- 15:29 Returns to Pic de Sauvegarde
- 15:31. “Not much signal in this area sorry” “I’m on a col/peak so can’t stop for too long but wanted you to know. Can’t wait to read all your messages. Thank you *advertiser censored*. “Love you very much *advertiser censored* having a really good time.”
- 15:41. Sends 2 selfies.
- 16:04. “I’m heading off now…Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”
- 16:06. “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx"
RedHaus
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Yes, @otto. That entire set of texts doesn't quite make sense do they? They never did. It really is hard to interpret them - what ED was meaning, like where and when was she heading immediately next? What was her time table? Were the disjointed thoughts (e.g. a col and peak are two different things.... she'd have to be in France to go to the refuge so why say "Might dip into France"... "I think I can see you", which she also stated in her 21/11 Instagram post of the summit pic she took, etc.). I postulated long ago that she may have been in a confused, dissociated or suicidal state or a weakened condition, perhaps due to lack of food, dehydration or exhaustion.
But for now I will suspend those theories and focus on your question at hand. Just up thread I provided three possible routes for ED to get to the port de la glere.... one of them is exactly as you described... back down from pic de sauvegarde to the cabane de la besurtas where DC says she spent the night 21/11. And the fastest way to port de la glere, IMO, would be to backtrack the next day to the trailhead near Hospital de Banasque where she was dropped 21/11 by the elder hiker she hitched a ride with. From there she could hike directly up to Port de la Glere, probably by midday or early afternoon on 23/11. If she got there, what happened to her is still a mystery.
But I think many here do NOT believe ED crossed into France on 22/11 via port de vanesque. And even @Steve_13 proposed a theory something bad happened to ED at the cabane de la besurtas on the evening of 22/11 and her remains might be buried in a ravine near by - and as we now know, perhaps recently scavenged by animals or vultures.
Anyhow, I like your thinking... now back to why ED appeared so disjointed and confused late afternoon of 22/11.... And why absolutely no mention between the two of them in DC's accounting of the one-sided text exchange, of the BIG BBC article that came out early that morning.... So many oddities it is hard to keep track!
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RickshawFan
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Before anyone wages their sleuthing skills on vultures.....
Relevant articles at bottom
Consider what snow does and what happens in freeze-thaw cycles.
--Snow moves a lot of stuff around by its bulk movement. It shoves stuff around. Consider the huge moraines left by glaciers, but on a micro scale in this instance.
--Wind over snow can create crazy conditions, I suppose because it smoothes the snow and lowers resistance. It can send bodies flying. See the video of SAR on a mission on Mount Washington.
--Snow can be involved in avalanches. Even tiny, localized, avalanches will dump stuff far from where they start. Think about how many people get buried each year in avalanches out West and where they end up compared to where they started.
--Snow can melt under a snow field and run off downstream. A recent SAR on Rainier worked with this recently to recover a body: it had floated down the mountain in the water stream under the snow.
Then consider freeze-thaw cycles....
Have you ever noticed in New England, what was a cleanish meadow in fall can become a somewhat rocky meadow in spring? That's because freeze/thaw pushes rocks up that are under the surface. Things that are buried are suddenly on top of the ground.
On different scales, this is what happens to bird feeders on poles, house foundations, cement patios, road potholes, mountain sides, frost heaves....
Now consider that the Pyrenees receives many snowfalls, many blizzards, many squalls, many freezing rains, many melts.... That's the context where the bones evidently spent the winter.
A young climber perishes on Mt. Adams
Video:
Hiker dies at Mount Rainier National Park
Science of freeze-thaw in mountain areas: Geological Society - Freeze-thaw
Relevant articles at bottom
Consider what snow does and what happens in freeze-thaw cycles.
--Snow moves a lot of stuff around by its bulk movement. It shoves stuff around. Consider the huge moraines left by glaciers, but on a micro scale in this instance.
--Wind over snow can create crazy conditions, I suppose because it smoothes the snow and lowers resistance. It can send bodies flying. See the video of SAR on a mission on Mount Washington.
--Snow can be involved in avalanches. Even tiny, localized, avalanches will dump stuff far from where they start. Think about how many people get buried each year in avalanches out West and where they end up compared to where they started.
--Snow can melt under a snow field and run off downstream. A recent SAR on Rainier worked with this recently to recover a body: it had floated down the mountain in the water stream under the snow.
Then consider freeze-thaw cycles....
Have you ever noticed in New England, what was a cleanish meadow in fall can become a somewhat rocky meadow in spring? That's because freeze/thaw pushes rocks up that are under the surface. Things that are buried are suddenly on top of the ground.
On different scales, this is what happens to bird feeders on poles, house foundations, cement patios, road potholes, mountain sides, frost heaves....
Now consider that the Pyrenees receives many snowfalls, many blizzards, many squalls, many freezing rains, many melts.... That's the context where the bones evidently spent the winter.
A young climber perishes on Mt. Adams
Video:
Hiker dies at Mount Rainier National Park
Science of freeze-thaw in mountain areas: Geological Society - Freeze-thaw
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pentimento
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After reading this link it sort of strengthens my gut feeling that she was the victim of foul play. I know that this has been hashed over previously but, to me, the fact that the area was under some sort of lockdown, ensuring few hikers in the area, if any, and the proximity to roads where an individual could easily get in and out of the area by hiking a short distance and leaving by car. Plus, it appears that she freely talked to others she met about her plans and the fact that she would be hiking and camping solo out there -- people she hitched rides from, others she met on the trails, maybe other people she met around town. She was experienced and well-prepared, but she was alone. Then is bothers me that, if true, none of her belongings were found in the area. I realize that there is animal activity, but nothing like clothing, boots, pack, poles, etc, which seemingly would have at least been seen in the extensive searches immediately after she went missing. I realize that there are other explanations and that all of the facts are not known yet. Things just don't add up to accident in my mind unless and until more info comes to light. JMO MOO and all that.
RickshawFan
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Do we know if the Spanish side of the ridge is in the lee or the French side? This is important when talking about weather.
It's worth keeping in mind that Dan Colgate wrote that dossier, and that he believed very early on that Esther's disappearance was a criminal event. I think this opinion was strengthened when he heard about a "mystery hiker." The mystery hiker was located in mid-December. He recommended the Port de la Glere hike, but was not involved in her disappearance.
Dan does not want to accept that Esther had an accident while hiking solo in Winter conditions. If Esther was abducted, there's a chance that she is alive. If she had an accident in the mountains, hope is lost.
This is a bit gruesome, but we know that the skull and hair were found together. If there was a lot of movement due to wind, snow, melt and so on, would the hair be with the skull?
It seems to me that for the hair and skull to be found together, 9 months after she vanished, they did not move very far after death.
Osterby Man, A.D. 1-100
Osterby, Germany 1948
Only his decapitated head was found, wrapped in a deerskin cape. He was likely killed by a blow to his left temple before he was decapitated. His hair, reddened by chemicals in the peat, is tied in an elaborate hairstyle called a Swabian knot. The Roman historian Tacitus, who lived in Osterby Man's era, describes the hairstyle as typical of the Suebi tribe of Germany."
NOVA | The Perfect Corpse | Bog Bodies of the Iron Age image 9 | PBS
pentimento
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Yes, and if there were animal activity, I think that someone pointed out that hair would be used by animals for nesting. I once had a friend with a parrot that would immediately fly to the top of my head when let out of the cage and start picking at my hair, and I presumed my blonde hair looked good for nesting. Anyway, back to my theory of foul play, I was thinking of the possibility that -- if this was an intentional act -- the body was perhaps covered crudely with rocks and dirt and her possessions removed, which is why she was not seen or found immediately after she disappeared. Ice and snow melt may have moved the rocks enough for the mountain runner to find the bones or the skull. Of course there is always the possibility that she just fell between some rocks which were later covered with ice and snow, but what of her belongings? Could she have been knocked unconscious? I guess we'll have to wait and see if they come up with any evidence of foul play. They may not know exactly who she talked to unless they have come forward. Or, it could have just been a terrible accident -- just hard to understand why she wouldn't have been seen in the earlier searches but I guess it happens all the time. JMO MOO
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The skull was found in such a remote area that it's almost unbelievable that a murderer would be stalking a lone hiker on a deserted trail during covid lockdown and Winter closure of Refuges. Perhaps the skull was picked up at one location and dropped at the top of the mountain range by a bird. I suppose we'll know more when we hear whether the skull is intact and how far off the trail it is located. I'm curious whether drones are being used to scour the area for other bones and her equipment.
RedHaus
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I agree, @otto. But I can also imagine a scenario where ED does the 'loop' that DC described in his dossier... pic de s, port de v, refuge de v, hospice de France, then port de la glere, etc. And when she passes through the hospice de France, likely mid-day or so on 23/11, she meets another hiker who was about to embark on his journey. Like ED apparently did so many times before, she could have befriended this fellow and agreed to hike with him thru to her port de la glere destination and perhaps beyond back to banesque. Why not, being a single female would be less risky with a male companion, right? And then sadly, near the port de la glere, the 'fellow hiker's' true character emerges and she sadly becomes the victim of his intended crime. He covers her body crudely (rocks, brush), and disposes her belongings in a lake, with rocks.
RedHaus
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Excellent post, @RickshawFan.
I remember when you first posted the story of Kate Matrosova's death in the white mountains early on in the discussion of the ED case. Having grown up in New England and having spent loads of time in the white and green mountains, it really touched a personal nerve. We are all so vulnerable when we put ourselves in a situation where nature can get the better of us and take our lives before we know what is happening. Your post here and now is EXCELLENT and an important lesson to us all about the perils of hiking alone in potentially fierce situations, and what could have happened to ED's body, if she perished in the Pyrenees just as winter set in.
pentimento
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Perhaps unlikely, yes, but there are nefarious people out there. The area is somewhat remote, but I believe I read that there are public roads within a two hour hike of Esther's planned route, and I believe they found other bones as well. I guess it is just that, as a woman myself, I'm not sure how wise it is to tell many strangers of your plans of when and where you are going to be, especially overnight when it is known that there will not likely be another soul around for miles. I realize that Esther is a free spirit and believes in the good in people, and got good information from people that way. I'm just the more cautious type and this is Websleuths after all and I'm just presenting a possibility. Of course I may be wrong, it is all speculation and gut feeling I guess. I wonder what Dan is thinking at this point.
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tarabull
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