Steely's curling iron theory

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Steely, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Not all curling irons have safety tips. PR competed in pageants in the 70's. She may have had a marcel curling iron which give "professional results" and they can get really hot.

    http://sos.georgia.gov/acrobat/examboards/Cosmetology/cib_masters_licensure_exam.pdf

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay9dSbaHbKI&feature=related[/ame]
    "these irons get HOTTTTT"
    "Marcel irons give professional results"
    "Tied the hair back, now there is more room to work"
     
  2. Steely

    Steely New Member

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  3. eileenhawkeye

    eileenhawkeye Active Member

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    Are you saying that Patsy had the same exact curling iron she had in the 70s in the 90s? Or that she had a Marcel curling iron in the 70s and then she brought a new one in the 90s? If it's the first one, I can't see Patsy having the same of anything for 20+ years. I have a straightener and it just got kind of crappy after a few years; I'm not sure if it would be the same with a curling iron.
     
  4. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    I agree it is more likely that PR purchased new curling iron(s) for JB's pageant days. I've wondered if she got a new one that Christmas she just couldn't wait to try out and that is why there aren't Christmas videos of the family opening presents.

    Marcel irons have been around a long time. They are a little harder to manage at first but "give professional results." Curling irons with springs can be safety tip free also. They even make clipless curling irons which come with a heat resistant glove but I'm not sure if they were available in the 90's. Most of the ones I have seen have a rounded tip. Some of the older Marcel irons seem to have pointed ends.

    At any rate, I do think PR probably had a PROFESSIONAL model curling iron(s) from a hair salon and/or wig supply store. Professional irons get hotter much faster than regular consumer curling irons and they don't all have safety tips. They also make the barrels with different SHAPES (squares and triangles). Some marcel irons come without cords and are heated on a little stove. I don't know which curling irons were new out in the 90's without safety tips. The curling irons I posted were ones I found doing a quick search for vintage curling irons. Do a search for marcel irons and clipless curling irons and you will see that not all curling irons have safety tips...NOT then and NOT now. They also come in a large variety of barrel sizes!

    I think this is a big misconception about curling irons and why some dismiss the idea of a curling iron so quickly. If some medical experts suspected a stun gun... what about a curling iron? Is it possible? I don't know, because I'm not an expert but how many of those medical experts knew about safety tip free curling irons? Some think those marks are from rings or buttons. Does a curling iron with a hot pointed tip really seem out of the question?

    If I were LE, I would analyze photos of the R's bathrooms, list of items SIS removed from home, photos of JB's pageants, VIDEOS of the home, videos of the pageants and preparation for them, and I would re-interview anyone who might know anything about PR's curling irons. (Interview hairdressers, housekeepers, photographers, friends, BR, JR, etc.) My guess is there is a photo or video somewhere of PR doing JB's hair which might show a safety-tip free curling iron. There might even be a beauty supply store with records of selling that type of curling iron to PR. Now of course, even if she did have one... it wouldn't prove anything. But could this be why the R's didn't want JB's body exhumed even though some thought proving "stun gun" marks might help exonerate them? Just a theory.
     
  5. Peepers

    Peepers Member

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    Good points Steely..I agree that Patsy likely had professional type curling irons..nothing but the best for her pageant doll..Could be curling iron burns as opposed to stun gun marks..its possible because we dont know for a fact what they are...
     
  6. Evan's Mom

    Evan's Mom Active Member

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    Wouldn't there have been some kind of documentation if she burns on her body?
    I've had curling iron burns before, and they don't really look anything like stun gun marks.
     
  7. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    I have doubts as to how the ME documented his finding or rather what wasnt documented. It was reported by some that were there, that not all things were written down. You also have to take into account, the blunders that he/ME made; example the reuse of the nail clippers.

    As far as the burns go, I am not the expert here on Autopsy, there are others far more qualified to answer this, but from what I have learned from them, is this.... Burns and injuries have different effects on live bodies versus dead bodies. Burns may not look like normal burns and abrasions may look like burns.. Which only adds to the hmmmmm theory.......
     
  8. justthinkin

    justthinkin New Member

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    I thought about a curling iron too, Steely, but then settled on a culinary torch because the marks weren't all the same size.

    SuperDave says they are not burns though, but they sure look like burns to me. I liked the idea of a culinary torch because the user can control the kind of burn they make, whether it be direct which makes little round burns of varying sizes or diffuse burns.
     
  9. KariKae

    KariKae Member

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    Having been around the child pageant scene for many years, I would be surprised if Patsy didn't have a professional accompany her to the pageants to do JB's hair. Most serious pageant moms do not do their child's hair by themself. Still she could have owned one for herself.

    I believe the coroner described the injury as an "abrasion". Would a burn (or even an abrasion for that matter) still be red after death?
     
  10. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    Moms with tempers, very often do use things like curling irons, hair brushes, etc...to wack their daughters. My mother was fixin' my sister's hair for graduation, & I guess she was being uncooperative, or whatever, because my mom wacked her hard on the head, with a hand held mirror. That thing broke into hundreds of little pieces, & my sister graduated with the sparkliest, most reflective hair, in her class. My thing with Patsy, is this...I think she was very abusive towards Jon Benet. systematically & consistently abusive. I don't think whatever happened that night, happened because of an isolated fit of rage. I'm not sure how 'sexual' the abuse was, but I do think think her vagina was involved. I also think Jon Benet might have been sexually abused by someone else. IMO, it seems that the abuse had come to a breaking point. the bed wetting, the soiling herself, Patsy's clean up, the pagents, the sexualized clothes & make-up, the dance & singing practice, the drs visits...that's not a normal childhood. IMO, Patsy had complete control of her every second, & Jon Benet couldn't take it anymore. She was seen crying at a Christmas party, saying she didn't feel pretty, she looked pale & withdrawn, the 911 call, the planned 'intervention'...all kinds of things point to a big problem, in that house. I would think that a very abusive mother, especially a perfectionist like Patsy, wouldn't take too kindly, to outsiders, interfering in her private life. Private lives are off limits. What would someone do, if she realized that her outside actions were garnering negative feedback? Would she panic? I think so...especially, if those outside actions were just a tip of the iceberg. Would Patsy have been scared that Jon Benet, would blab her secrets? I think so. I think somebody like Patsy, would be furious at the intrusion, on her private life. If her abuse was as bad as I suspect, well, Patsy may have seen that there was no turning back. I've suspected for awhile, that there might have been some premeditation involved in Jon Benet's murder. maybe not a long, planned out premeditation, but a panicked, last minute plot.
     
  11. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    Welcome dodie..... :welcome:
     
  12. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Evan's Mom, that is what you would think, isn't it? But not using separate clippers in a homicide investigation seems like a huge error so I am suspicious the ME may have made other errors. An autopsy is subjective. It relies on the ME's verbal descriptions.

    One type of "abrasion" is called a "friction burn." The only way to know for sure what caused those "abrasions" would be to examine the tissue. You can't really tell from a photo and I am suspicious the ME did not examine them as carefully as he should have. I wonder if it would have been more accurate to call these "unknown abrasions" "unknown lesions" since the ME did not examine them under a microscope to make a differential diagnosis.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18472235
    "The features of the lesions examined under the light microscope were intraepidermal separation, subepidermal (dermoepidermal) separation, coagulation necrosis in the epidermis, nuclear elongation in the epidermis, dark-staining epidermal nucleus, depth of homogenization in the dermis, and nuclear elongation in the epithelium of hair follicles. A significantly high rate of electrical lesions had intraepidermal separation. The rate of subepidermal separation was slightly more significant in flame burns. A significantly higher rate of electrical lesions had both intraepidermal and subepidermal separation. The rate of coagulation necrosis in the epidermis was significantly the highest in electrical lesions. Although the severity of nuclear elongation was the most significant in electrical lesions, varying degrees of nuclear elongation in the epidermis were present in all three groups. Dark staining of the epidermal nuclei was present in all lesions except for one electrical lesion, though the severity of staining was significant in the abrasion group. The depth of homogenization was slightly more significant in the abrasion group. The rate of nuclear elongation in the epithelium of the hair follicles was significantly lower in the abrasion group. The results of this study revealed that certain morphological changes determined under a light microscope could help the differential diagnoses of electrical lesions, flame burns and abrasions."


    "Not only is the appearance of lesions important, but the pattern and distribution on the skin is as well."
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/education/derm/tutc/injury.html
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/education/derm/text.html
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/education/derm/tutb/erosion.html
    http://www.pediatrics.wisc.edu/education/derm/tutc/injury.html
    "Abrasions are traumatically caused erosions."

    I've never had a curling iron burn that looked remotely like a stun gun mark either. But have we had the hot end of a safety-tip free curling iron pushed into our skin? That would leave a branding type burn which would leave an injury with a pattern... it would have defined edges. Thankfully, I haven't had this happen to me, but I wonder if it might cause a patterned injury like the "abrasions" on JB's cheek and back. I do have a professional iron which is safety tip free and a split second of the clip against my neck left a mark that looked like a scratch similar to one I saw on JB's autopsy photo. I've also brushed the barrel against my arm and it left a mark that looked more like an abrasion than a typical burn. Those were split-second accidents. A professional quality safety-tip free curling iron would cause a significant burn in a very short period of time, especially on the tender skin of a child.
     
  13. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    They look like burns to me too, justthinkin! I think I saw you post about a culinary torch before, was that you? I think that is a possibility too but I wondered about a culinary torch if because it is a flame, they'd blister up more? What does the tip of that kind of torch look like? If the end of it was hot and pushed into the skin, would that leave that kind of mark? Are they round? The "stun gun" marks have some edges, don't they?
     
  14. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Great points, Agatha_C! Also... Injuries inflicted right before death may look very different than they would if more time had lapsed before the injury and the time of death. I know some burns take a while to blister. Also, some abrasions when they are very fresh look more like burns when they first happen.
     
  15. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    I'd love to hear more of your insights about the pageant scene! Thanks for posting. I thought I read somewhere that PR's mom said PR did JB's hair. Anyone else remember the source of that? At any rate, you can tell from JB's family photos her mom did curl her hair sometimes. You make a really good point and it is entirely possible that if a curling iron was used against JB...that it was hot from PR doing her own hair. It has also been reported PR was the one who DYED JB's hair. I've wondered when she did that last because the autopsy photos look like the hair is rather freshly bleached. There isn't any grow-out at the nape of the neck.

    Hope to hear more of your insights! Thanks!
     
  16. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    Dodie, this is a very thought provoking post. Please tell me more about this planned intervention. I have no recollection of it. I've suspected prior abuse because of the bruises which look like grab marks in a couple of JB's pageant photos. Thanks for posting.
     
  17. eileenhawkeye

    eileenhawkeye Active Member

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    Patsy's friends were planning on confronting Patsy about the "mega JonBenet" thing after the holidays. That's all we know about it so we have to come to our own conclusions about what "mega JonBenet" could mean. I think the pageants were getting to be too much; JonBenet was even going all the way to Hawaii for a pageant.

    Also, hasn't it be said that JonBenet went to Texas during the Summer of 1996 and then when she came back, she was different? Like more mature looking and acting? Compare her Randall Simmons photoshoot (June 1996) and her Easter photoshoot (April 1996) with her Judith Phillips photoshoot (November 1996). The pictures definitely have a more mature look about them.

    April 1996:

    [​IMG]

    June 1996:

    [​IMG]

    November 1996:

    [​IMG]

    December 1996:

    [​IMG]

    She looks so much older in the pictures from November and December compared to the pictures from April and June. We're only talking a few months difference too. Just compare June 1996 to November 1996 picture to see how much more sexualized JonBenet was.
     
  18. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    In the June picture, Jon Benet's eyes are youthful & sparkling, but in the November picture, they're droopy & drugged looking. I'm not saying she was drugged, but maybe the make-up was so heavy, it weighted her eyes down. Also, I don't like the lips. not just the color, but also the way the lipstick is applied. It makes her lips look too full & rose buddy. I have never liked that picture...maybe because it's not a pageant picture, but a real life picture, & it's so sexualized?
     
  19. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    I think she was exhausted and stressed amongst other things....
     
  20. SunnieRN

    SunnieRN Active Member

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    I adore the December picture of her, in the hat. Her eyes look tired, but that IMHO is a sweet smile. She was starting to grow up, but still looked like a girl here.
     

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