Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by midwestphd, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

    Messages:
    1,878
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    0

    The possibilities are endless.

    Most RDI scenarios have to work well as IDI scenarios too. IOWs it must be believable that an intruder would do x, y, and z. So, assuming RDI for the moment, whoever you like as the redresser, JR/PR/BR, why would they select size 12s? Why would an intruder do that? If we assume the staging was complete (and I don't believe it was) then what is found when police arrive is what the stagger(s) intend police to see. What do the 12s tell the police? Nothing, as they are covered by LJs. The police are completely unaware that she's wearing panties under the LJs, much less what size panties. What does it tell investigators? Nothing really. Investigators have to speculate on why she's in size 12s, but they are as helpless as we are - it just goes 'round and 'round. It doesn't tell a consistent story.

    The story the Rs are telling the police is that we put her to bed, and woke up the next morning to find a RN, and an evil intruder must have come in during the night and did this....blah blah blah. The size 12s don't add to that stroy, in fact they detract from it, as it's hard to imagine a real intruder changing the panty size. If an intruder wanted the original panties (either as a souvenir or because of forensics) then he'd just take them and not bother replacing them. He'd just pull up the LJs and be gone. (Or he may not even bother pulling up the LJs) So, imo, it wasn't done to throw anyone off, in the sense of making them ponder why an intruder would do that, because throwing them off in that way is the last thing the stagger(s) want to do. They want to create a nice consistent believable IDI story. They want things to make sense as an IDI scenario.

    Yet, she's in size 12s. If we assume IDI for a moment (and I'm not IDI) then the answer must be that the intruder simply pulled down the LJs/panties, did his thing, wiped, then pulled up the LJs/panties, which means JBR was wearing them prior to the SA. If we turn to RDI, the answer might well be the same, the culprit pulled down the LJs/panties, did his business then pulled everything back up. Since she was already wearing size 12s there didn't seem to be any problem, and in fact if the LJs and panties were pulled down (and back up) together, the size of the panties wouldn't really have been noticed.

    If she'd been wearing correct size panties prior to SA, then the perp had to remove them completely and replace them with size 12s. The perp could hardly fail to notice the size difference. Since the size difference raises red flags and detracts from the plausibility of an intruder scenario, it probably wouldn't have been done, by a Ramsey. Yet she's in 12s. So the size 12s are probably on her because that's what she wore prior to the SA. There doesn't seem to be a good rationale for a Ramsey to have placed the size 12s on her, especially if they are trying to create a consistent intruder scenario.

    We can make everything more complex by trying to factor in the barbie nightgown. Then we have undressing, redressing, undressing, redressing differently, and we still have the size 12 problem.

    So 'round and 'round we go. The one thing we can be pretty sure of is that PR wasn't involved in the redressing, because if she had been, it would have been a simple matter of going upstairs and grabbing a pair of size 6s from JBRs underwear drawer. Either JBR put the 12s on herself, or the perp could not access the correct size (perhaps too risky to go upstairs leaving a half naked but still alive child in the basement) even then it's hard to see why he didn't just pull up the LJs and be done with it. A Ramsey perp is going to blame the missing panties on the intruder anyway, so why bother replacing with any size?

    One more observation, there is no real reason to suppose the "correct size" panties needed replacing. The nature of the SA requires the panties to be down/off, so it seems unlikely they were forensically contaminated.
     


  2. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    291
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don't think Patsy would have run upstairs to get a pair of JB's own panties. First of all, police said that every single pair of JB's panties had fecal stains on them, and I honestly think Patsy would not want her to be found wearing them. Patsy knew where there were brand-new panties- right there in the basement-wrapped as a gift to be mailed to her niece after they returned from their trip. They weren't even thinking about the size. The panties went on under the long johns, and the size was not apparent. I honestly believe they never thought the size of JB's panties would be an issue.
     
  3. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Chris hope really said it all. But, I’ll add to that, anyway. :)

    I don’t think we can know the exact sequence. Too many variables, too many possibilities...
    .

    She was asphyxiated from behind, IMO face down.

    She was probably struck from overhead, from behind, IMO face down?

    If she was stunned – I’m not convinced, but just sayin’ – on the back then this was also from behind – IMO face down.
    If the garrote was fashioned on her – evidence suggests that it was – then she was almost certainly - IMO - face down.
    She urinated, face down.

    There is urine through the panties and through the leggings and onto the carpet. If the urine was post mortem, and after being wiped and redressed, than why is the urine face down? I mean, she was wiped face-up. Right? Probably (IF, if, if, if....) redressed face up, laid on the blanket face up, etc. If after all this, how does she end up face down on the carpet for the urine?
    ...

    AK
     
  4. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Chrishope,
    This is why she was redressed in the size-12's precisely so that, hopefully, no questions would be asked, and they do tell a consistent story, just one that that does not match your preferred theory.

    Any RDI theory must factor in the barbie nightgown and the size-12's, since they form part of the forensic evidence. How does DocG's theory explain these items?

    Really? How about the size-12's being selected precisely because they create a consistent intruder scenario, i.e. the size-12's were a Wednesday Day of the Week pair, selected to corroborate the R's version of events where JonBenet goes straight to bed after the White's party, wearing her Wednesday Day of the Week underwear?

    BBM: No, false dichotomy. They may have been selected for the Day of the Week feature and size is incidental.

    In the Ramsey staging there are no missing panties that is the point, and any size that matches a Wednesday Day of the Week is a very good pair, in the R's estimation.

    .
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    questfortrue,
    Thanks for your well thought out constructive reply.

    Yes this more or less matches what I'm proposing, i.e. there was more than one sexual assault. Also:

    Excerpt, Autopsy Report
    BBM: Seen so far from the surface suggests to me that its appearance is not accidental?



    Two options here either the painbrush was used to assault JonBenet in an attempt to mask a prior sexual assault, or it was part of the behaviour of the perpetrator, i.e. a pathologically ritual aspect seen in many homicides and sometimes referred to as a signature. If you factor in Kolar's remarks here regarding BR's allegedly dysfunctional behaviour, then this feature might have legs?

    BBM: This is my preferred interpretation, since we now know all three R's were involved in staging JonBenet's homicide.

    To date many have assumed that BR played no part in the staging. Although I accept BR did not plan and co-ordinate what became the wine-cellar crime-scene, it now seems naive to think, assuming BDI, that he would make no attempt to cleanup the primary crime-scene, even if only in a childish manner so to deflect blame?


    .
     
  6. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

    Messages:
    1,233
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    :websleuther:
    I'm following you...

    :what:
    Hmmm...
    :waitasec:
    Perplexing inquiry.
    :dunno:
    SOOO, whaddayathink, AK?
     
  7. elannia

    elannia Active Member

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    All in all im beginning to think it was a male in the house(still not letting go of JAR not being a suspect) 1... I dont see patsy as the one who bashed her head in(maybe an accident pushed her too hard or something but I dont think that would have caused the big gap in her skull ) And myself being a mother I dont see her jabbing that paintbrush inside her(people do this I know just hard to think about that they would , especially a mom but it was around TOD so she prob thought it wouldnt hurt her) and I honestly dont see john doing it either. He was in so much grief after beth died that I dont see him doing it.but do you think burke was smart enough to stage the crime scene itself? i think not . Patsy wrote that RN.MOO
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Anti-K,
    BBM: Whats the problem here?

    Assumed Sequence of Events:

    1. JonBenet is sexually assaulted upstairs.

    2. JonBenet is whacked on the head upstairs.

    3. JonBenet is still alive and relocated down to the basement.

    4. JonBenet is cleaned up and redressed.

    5. JonBenet is placed face down and ligature asphyxiated.

    6. JonBenet voids her bladder while face down.

    7. JonBenet is placed onto the white blanket, face up.

    At this point the urine might not have seeped through to the longjohns, so may not have been visible?

    .
     
  9. questfortrue

    questfortrue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    OK, I see what you mean. Yes, it’s possible to view a child doing some primitive staging. (And, like you, and the FBI, I see two adult hands in staging.) But your thoughts as far as a “ritual” with a paintbrush, also strike more of a note now. That could fit certain psychological profiles associated with OCD behavior.

    In an article on OCD in children from PyschCentral there’s this:
    Contamination — excessive concern over germs, disease, illness, contagion.
    Harm to self or others — irrational fears such as causing a car crash, stabbing him- or herself or another person with a knife or other sharp object, etc. and
    Sexual themes — obsessive thinking about sex; disturbing writing or doodling of a sexual nature.


    Since I’m no professional, this is simply speculation on my part, but I’ve always wondered about a combination of SBP and OCD manifest in BR. Remember the scene with the psychologist where she inadvertently drinks from BR’s soda and his reaction to this? And there does seem to be something compulsive within SBP. Just brainstorming here. MHO
     
  10. elannia

    elannia Active Member

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Just came across something. While interviewing with ST he asked if anyone had slept in her daughters bed. She named off family members but then added erin, brian, and brad. JAR had a friend named brad who went to the movies with him(supposedly) on the night of the murder. Wonder if thats the same brad and why would he be sleeping in her room. Earlier I had posted about JAR and was reading ST book(again lol) and came across that like WHOA!!! Any thoughts on this?
     
  11. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,303
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Just posted a response on another thread to you that includes my thoughts on this.
     
  12. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think that the evidence and reason do not support the claim that Jonbenet was redressed, or that her panties were changed.
    ...

    AK
     
  13. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The sexual assault occurred at or near point of death. I don’t think that this allows time for things to transpire as you suggest. If the asphyxiation occurred in the basement, than death occurred in the basement, and if the sexual assault occurred at or near point of death than it, too, probably occurred in the basement.

    While there is evidence to show that the victim was wiped, the evidence does not show that her panties, or any other clothing, was changed between the time she was put to bed and the time that her lifeless body was discovered.
    ...

    AK
     
  14. Anti-K

    Anti-K New Member

    Messages:
    1,874
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I suppose this might be one of those posts that should come with a WARNING – some might be offended, or graphic descriptions ahead...

    The asphyxiation took a few minutes.

    Watch my garrote demo: http://tinyurl.com/mg4vvhr

    The garrote – ligature, if you prefer, or slip knot – would have worked something very much like the one used in the video. Watch it again. It tightens in a second; very fast. It stays tight. It’ll stay tight forever. You don’t have to keep pulling it, or hanging onto it. You can just let go and walk away.

    If the sexual assault occurred at or near point of death and if the asphyxiation took a few minutes, then we have reason to say that the two events likely occurred together. This becomes even more plausible when one takes into account that after a second or two to pull the ligature tight, the killer would have been left hands free.

    The asphyxiation took a few minutes.

    During these minutes the killer could have done anything that he wanted to do, including: roll her over, pull down her panties, sexually assault, wipe and pull the panties back up. She urinates before she is rolled over; the blood transfers during the wiping phase or at some point after the panties are pulled up.
    ...

    AK
     
  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    291
    Trophy Points:
    63
    We don't know for sure if she was wiped face up or down. We DO know the cord was tied at the nape of her neck while she was face down. It is thought that the strangulation is what ultimately ended her life. To me, it is logical that she was placed unconscious face DOWN on the carpeted area just outside the wine cellar door. In this same area was also found the paint tote and shards of wood matched to the broken paintbrush. There was also said to be creatine (dried urine) on that carpet. From there, she was placed face UP on the white blanket in the winecellar. It is not difficult to see how she was face DOWN at her death and urine release and then simply carried to the wine cellar and left face UP, the blanket pulled around her torso- legs straight out and left that way till she was found 12 hours later. Livor mortis and rigor mortis suggest this same thing. We don't know HOW she was redressed- face up or down- but she was face DOWN when she died and face UP when found, with being placed face UP on the blanket the LAST thing that happened.
     
  16. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,303
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Because of the forensic discovery of pineapple in JB's system, and the fact that her hair had two ponytails, I can agree that JB could have been wearing the Wednesday panties under the longjohns, as well as her white Gap shirt, when she was assaulted and killed, not being redressed after the crime. Also, lint on the bottom of her feet seem to indicate to me that there would have been no fabric taken off/on over her feet after she was in a prone position, since it might have also taken the lint with it. She most likely would have been alive either sitting or standing somewhere where her feet could gather lint, already in the longjohns, and no further disturbance made to the bottoms of her feet once she was no longer on them.


    Most of the outfit she wore to the White's was carefully laid out on the other bed in her room. If JB was given the concession of wearing the new Bloomi's because other properly fitting, unstained underwear was packed for Michigan and then the Disney trip, it would make sense Patsy and JB would choose the Wednesday pair, since it was Christmas that year on Wednesday. The large Wednesday Bloomi's would not have been much of an issue being worn under tight LongJohn's just during night sleep.

    Perhaps the plan was to have JB arise early, already in the Gap shirt, remove the bottoms, and redress her in the carefully laid out clothing she had worn to the White's for the plane trip to Michigan? PR in same Christmas outfit on the 26th, and JB in her same outfit? OK for plane travel, with a fresh change planned for their immediate arrival in Michigan prior to their other family celebration?
     
  17. elannia

    elannia Active Member

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    So the black jeans on the other bed are the ones from the whites? There was another soiled black pair in the bathroom right?
     
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Anti-K,
    There is a substantial time gap between JonBenet being sexually assaulted and her being asphyxiated, one expert has suggested an interval of 45 minutes?

    JonBenet was not simply sexually assaulted then asphyxiated, inbetween she was also whacked on the head and her body sustained numerous contusions and abrasions.

    But the sexual assault did not occur near the point of death. JonBenet was whacked on the head after being sexually assaulted, she was still alive at this point, since dead people do not bleed. There is nothing probable about her being sexually assaulted in the basement. It is more probable she was relocated there away from the primary crime-scene, likely located somewhere upstairs, e.g. her bedroom, or the breakfast bar.

    1996-12-27: Search Warrant 755 15 Street, Boulder, Colorado
    Someone definitely wiped JonBenet clean with a cloth. Presumably JonBenet's assailant removed the size-12's prior to assaulting her, then wiped her down, finally redressing her in the unstained size-12's?

    August 28, 2000 Atlanta BPD Patsy Ramsey Interview, Excerpt
    Patsy's claims regarding the size-12's are vague and nebulous, subject to episodes of amnesia.


    [August 28, 2000 Atlanta BPD Patsy Ramsey Interview, Excerpt
    So if you reckon, for whatever reason, that JonBenet wore the size-12's prior to going to bed on 12/25/1996, and that this was normal practice, then why were there no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer as Patsy claimed, in fact none could be found in the house?

    You are parroting the R's version of events here. This version of events has been shown to be inconsistent, i.e. pineapple residue in JonBenet's stomach, and BR awake during the 911 call, as admitted by the R's. As I've mentioned before RDI theories that fail to explain away either size-12's or pink barbie nightgown are inconsistent and untestable.

    .
     
  19. 2 percent

    2 percent New Member

    Messages:
    1,301
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hmmm...does anyone know how common it is for pedophiles who target JBs age range to dress their victim in different clothes? Would a pink nightie v. a longjohn pj set be considered more desirable to a pedophile who prefers 6 year olds? I've never been interested in pedophilia so I don't know how much fantasies of young children wearing things like nighties and bathing suits enter into the tendency.
     
  20. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    291
    Trophy Points:
    63
    There was another black pair on the bathroom floor that had fecal staining (or feces)or had panties still inside with fecal staining. Police showed Patsy a crime photo of these black pants on the floor. Patsy described them as "black play pants". I would assume there were typical kids' play pants, possibly corduroy or cotton as opposed to her "dress" pants which were velvet. So yes, there were 2 pairs of black girl's pants.
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice