Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

I have read the autopsy report, as well as Dr. Wecht's interpretation of same. Unfortunately, I am not a doctor, so while I can read and understand the report, I have to rely on people more knowledgable than myself to understand what some of the findings really mean. :(

I am not a dr either.. Dang it! But I do have a lot of medical knowledge from working in a health care positions and having relatives that are nurses and Drs who are friends.

I would like to read it and then research and find the answers myself when possible.
 
I am not a dr either.. Dang it! But I do have a lot of medical knowledge from working in a health care positions and having relatives that are nurses and Drs who are friends.

I would like to read it and then research and find the answers myself when possible.

I know, right? Not being a doctor is terribly inconvenient. :)
 
What I don't want is anyone's impressions or thoughts. I want just the report. I will meander over there. I was there last night reading It is a lot to take in.

Thank you!

I wasn't offering 'impressions or thoughts'. ST and KOLAR books are encyclopedia of FACTS based on BPD documented reports with references to such in Index portion of their books. Both of them came to different conclusions BUT each of them has referenced the same FACTS.
 
I wasn't offering 'impressions or thoughts'. ST and KOLAR books are encyclopedia of FACTS based on BPD documented reports with references to such in Index portion of their books. Both of them came to different conclusions BUT each of them has referenced the same FACTS.

Okay. I was not aware of that! Thanks. I have tried to stay out of the muddle. If you know what I mean. I tried to start in the JB forum alone, and was just lost. Really lost.

I appreciate your patience with me! :gthanks:

ETA: I am just not sure how I feel about ST. I am happy to look at SK stuff, and ST's but I am not a fan.
 
BBM, while you may feel it improbable, It is not impossible. This occurred to me when I was listening to someone recently telling me about their daughter who had discovered herself.

I will read the autopsy a little later. I am hankering down for the snow... so I should have lots of time to read this weekend. :)

I agree, if this were any old child who is currently still alive and healthy, it is improbable but not impossible.

But what is the probability of a child who just happens to masturbate in a violent internally injuring manner also is the same child who happens to end up sexually assaulted and then murdered.

vs,

the statistics of a children who are chronically sexually violated by a family member turning up missing or dead by the hand violating family member? Websleuths has page after page of those, sadly.

Enjoy your snow storm! I'm in the South where, pre-storm, we pillage the grocery store for toilet paper, bread, and milk, and cancel school at the mere suggestion of snow. :floorlaugh:
 
I agree, if this were any old child who is currently still alive and healthy, it is improbable but not impossible.

But what is the probability of a child who just happens to masturbate in a violent internally injuring manner also is the same child who happens to end up sexually assaulted and then murdered.

vs,

the statistics of a children who are chronically sexually violated by a family member turning up missing or dead by the hand violating family member? Websleuths has page after page of those, sadly.

Enjoy your snow storm! I'm in the South where, pre-storm, we pillage the grocery store for toilet paper, bread, and milk, and cancel school at the mere suggestion of snow. :floorlaugh:

I just can not get to a family member molesting her. I just can't yet. I hope you understand that. I think there are too many other possibilities.

I hear you on the snow. We are in the NE and when my brother moved to N.C. and showed up at work one day when it had basically flurried, He called his boss and his boss said " what do you mean you are at work?!!" GO HOME!!

I hope we get a good pop of snow. We have had more dustings than the kids can handle. They want a good one!
 
Okay. I was not aware of that! Thanks. I have tried to stay out of the muddle. If you know what I mean. I tried to start in the JB forum alone, and was just lost. Really lost.

I appreciate your patience with me! :gthanks:

No problem, I'm here to help. Not to influence.

Did you ever read books regarding JBR case? If not, I highly recommend:

- to start with Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Shiller. This book is un-bias, so to speek. Shiller wasn't taking sides and didn't provide any opinions. Book is very thick! Huge amount of information. Shiller is the writer, not LE;

- next is the MUST (you can disregard author's conclusion for the purpose of being fair) Steve Thomas, Inside of JBR Investigation. ST was the LEAD Investigator in this case, in 1996, working in BPD;

- finally, James Kolar: Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet. Kolar was hired by Boulder DA office in 2006 to review JBR case as the Cold Case, after GJ delibaration. He never met Ramseys, he never was involved in original investigation in 1996. So, he was looking at this case with 'open mind'. He reveal some new FACTS which wasn't publisized before. His book is excellent, VERY easy to read, very 'entertaining'!

jmo
 
In IDI theory...

I have a very hard time with Patsy's lack of concern over the root cause of JBR's chronic vaginal issues and UTIs. We now know JBR was chronically molested by someone. The internal trauma that left lasting scarring had to have made JBR bleed and obviously cause repeated female issues with her, likely every time she was re-traumatized.

JBR would have had blood streaks/pink tint in her panties over the course of some of her previous molestations, one would think, especially since iirc, there was previous hymenal damage.

So, as a 'good parent', you bathe you child, see their underpants, see/know that she's constantly infected 'down there' and sore, yet the doctor you take her to, the family friend, doesn't look down there to see what the problem might be? You don't bother to ask him to look down there? Why don't you demand he examine her there?

Why would he not look? That's part of the examination one (even a child) would receive before the diagnosis of vaginitis. Did mom tell him not to bother, Jonbenet's too shy, just write a script?

With all these UTI's, why isn't mom or the doc thinking perhaps she should see a urologist?

Why wouldn't mom demand to check her out thoroughly and get to the bottom of this?

That the doctor states he never examined her vaginally really bothers me. Either he didn't because Mama told him not to bother (because of what she knew he might see) or because he's lying, and then he'd either 1) have to admit he is a poor doctor not to recognize signs of sexual abuse, or 2) have to admit he DID see signs, and never reported it.


I'm still scratching my head how JBR could have had a viginitis diagnosis without her pediatrician examining her vulva/vagina.

PR tried to explain away the injuries with bubble baths. Certainly bubble baths can cause vaginitis, however, bubble baths will not erode away a hymen. Also....if your daughter has vaginitis not once, twice, three or four times, but 33 times in 3 years and you are still giving your child bubble baths, you are inordinately stupid or cruel, imho.
 
I did not read the PMPT Book but I did see the movie.

Thanks for the recommendations. I will read them. I don't want to dominate the thread with all my questions or thoughts but I really appreciate the kindness and openness you have shown!

You guys are awesome! Thanks much!!
 
I just can not get to a family member molesting her. I just can't yet. I hope you understand that. I think there are too many other possibilities.

I hear you on the snow. We are in the NE and when my brother moved to N.C. and showed up at work one day when it had basically flurried, He called his boss and his boss said " what do you mean you are at work?!!" GO HOME!!

I hope we get a good pop of snow. We have had more dustings than the kids can handle. They want a good one!

I don't want to have a 'good one'!!! Here, in Ohio, we're expecting the snow storm tomorrow...but personnaly, I'm expecting my grandbaby from Columbus, not the snow!!!!!:)
 
What if she was a chronic masturbator? What if she had discovered herself?
How can they know that the inflammation did not occur that horrible night? Again, The "Ive read.... "part, Is someones impressions of other peoples impressions so I am leaving that out.

But if its true? How awful must that have been for them. EEK!

What I am looking for is undisputed facts. If you want me to see the other side, I just need facts and evidence. I promise to follow the trail and see where it leads but I want only reports and real time lines based on real fact. Not someone's thoughts about the facts.

This absolutely enrages me, but I will calmly state that NO child will "touch herself" to the extent that her hymen will erode or to the extent that she will BLEED. Girls that young would not masturbate unless they had been molested and were touched by someone else, even another child. JB also had a MUCH wider vaginal canal than normal for a child her age, even allowing for differences in various anatomy.
The coroner can TELL that some of the inflammation/vascular congestion occurred more than 24 hours previously because he is a DOCTOR and a Medical Examiner and they know exactly how long before death something like that will occur. Bruising also has a fairly standard progression and does not occur AFTER death so the doctor can tell approximately when they were caused. The coroner's report IS factual. It isn't his OPINION. It is FACT. The written report is his findings. His OPINION on what caused them may be shared with LE but will not be put in the written report.
EVERY forensic expert that read that report, or saw the body, stated that there was evidence of prior (at least 24 hours before) molestation as well as the acute penetration that happened that night.
If you do not understand the report, PM me and I will try to explain.
 
I also want to add that an internal pelvic exam is NOT part of routine pediatric care, and the instruments that would be needed (a speculum) are not found in a pediatrician's office. If there was a rare occasion for a girl that young to be examined internally, she would have to be anesthetized and the procedure would be performed in a hospital or similar facility.
It isn't unusual that JB's pediatrician did not do a pelvic exam. What IS unusual and unethical, IMO, is that he stated that she was not molested as if it were fact when he did not actually KNOW for sure because he never examined her.
Had he thought one was needed, he'd have recommended it UNLESS he suspected (or knew) that some of her symptoms may have been the result of abuse. It think it is highly suspicious that Dr. Beuf said he would destroy JB's medical records before he let police see them. Is THIS the kind of thing you'd expect from a doctor whose 6-year old patient had been found murdered and molested? NO WAY. You'd expect EVERY cooperation to help the police. Also highly suspicious? That the cowardly DA did not subpoena those records and that he also allowed an "island of privacy" (R words) around BR's medical records. And he refused to subpoena her SCHOOL medical records (her VERY frequent Monday-morning visits to the school nurse). What could there have been in BR's records that the Rs and their team (which also included AH, ML and LS) that needed to be hidden from police? Possibly something about his sexual contact with his little sister?
 
I don't want to have a 'good one'!!! Here, in Ohio, we're expecting the snow storm tomorrow...but personnaly, I'm expecting my grandbaby from Columbus, not the snow!!!!!:)

I'm in Ohio, too - Cincinnati!

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2
 
Okay. I was not aware of that! Thanks. I have tried to stay out of the muddle. If you know what I mean. I tried to start in the JB forum alone, and was just lost. Really lost.

I appreciate your patience with me! :gthanks:

ETA: I am just not sure how I feel about ST. I am happy to look at SK stuff, and ST's but I am not a fan.

FACTS are the FACTS, regardless in which books they're stated. It's their interpretations which vary from book to book. Please, don't ignore ST!!!...the most important, for now, keep your FEELINGS aside, don't let them influance your mind.

For the balance, you can read Ramseys book as well: 'Death of Innocence' and 'Other Side of Suffering'.

jmo
 
I also want to add that an internal pelvic exam is NOT part of routine pediatric care, and the instruments that would be needed (a speculum) are not found in a pediatrician's office. If there was a rare occasion for a girl that young to be examined internally, she would have to be anesthetized and the procedure would be performed in a hospital or similar facility.
It isn't unusual that JB's pediatrician did not do a pelvic exam. What IS unusual and unethical, IMO, is that he stated that she was not molested as if it were fact when he did not actually KNOW for sure because he never examined her.
Had he thought one was needed, he'd have recommended it UNLESS he suspected (or knew) that some of her symptoms may have been the result of abuse. It think it is highly suspicious that Dr. Beuf said he would destroy JB's medical records before he let police see them. Is THIS the kind of thing you'd expect from a doctor whose 6-year old patient had been found murdered and molested? NO WAY. You'd expect EVERY cooperation to help the police. Also highly suspicious? That the cowardly DA did not subpoena those records and that he also allowed an "island of privacy" (R words) around BR's medical records. And he refused to subpoena her SCHOOL medical records (her VERY frequent Monday-morning visits to the school nurse). What could there have been in BR's records that the Rs and their team (which also included AH, ML and LS) that needed to be hidden from police? Possibly something about his sexual contact with his little sister?

These are real questions, not being snarky! :seeya:

For me, I was more referring to a visual exam of the external genatalia. They do it is well visits with little girls, I can't imagine he wouldn't examine her vulva/labial area when diagnosing vaginitis. Would he not be able to visualize a ragged hymen then? How would he differentiate between UTI and vaginitis otherwise? Symptoms can be similar, iirc. And when a child has chronic UTI, does a doctor not ever examine the urethral opening?

Many doctors do check external genatalia of both genders at well visits, at least our doctors do.

Do they not do a culture/swab of at least the vulva/labial area to diagnose vaginitis? :waitasec:
 
These are real questions, not being snarky! :seeya:

For me, I was more referring to a visual exam of the external genatalia. They do it is well visits with little girls, I can't imagine he wouldn't examine her vulva/labial area when diagnosing vaginitis. Would he not be able to visualize a ragged hymen then? How would he differentiate between UTI and vaginitis otherwise? Symptoms can be similar, iirc. And when a child has chronic UTI, does a doctor not ever examine the urethral opening?

Many doctors do check external genatalia of both genders at well visits, at least our doctors do.

Do they not do a culture/swab of at least the vulva/labial area to diagnose vaginitis? :waitasec:

I am sure he examined her vulva. That would be part of an external exam, certainly. But to see the eroded hymen or any bruising in her vagina, he'd need to use a speculum. I don't believe you can see the hymen just by spreading her labia and looking. He never mentioned doing any kind of swabbing. I think he felt (or WANTED to think) her irritation was due to her chronic wetting/soiling or bubble baths.
These CAN all cause irritation (like a diaper rash) but NONE of them cause an eroded hymen, widened vaginal canal or bruising IN the vagina.
 
I did some searching last night and found something that could explain the vaginal trauma on JB.

Vaginal abrasions may also occur in young girls, particularly if children have developed a yeast infection or have suffered a recent injury to the sensitive vaginal lining. Fissures may be more difficult to diagnose on a child depending upon location and size of the tear, as well as the child’s communication abilities. Women with vaginal fissures often described tears as feeling like a paper cut. In children, such a description may be felt, but not so easily seen by a caretaker or communicated by the child. It is not uncommon for a young girl who complains of stinging or burning, especially during bath time or bathroom activities, to be, in fact, suffering from vaginal fissures.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-vaginal-fissures.htm

Chronic Yeast infections..

Why do Young Children get Yeast Infections?

The cause of yeast infections in everyone is too much or too little moisture in the genitalia. In the case of women, wearing or using certain products can be the cause. Many young children love taking long, bubble baths with all the bath toys and fun. Bubble baths can actually heighten the moisture in the genitals and cause the yeast to grow to the point where a yeast infection appears. This will not happen in most children but as different bodies react to different things, it can occur.

Another cause of yeast infections in children can be when they are allowed to wear their wet bathing suits for a long time after they are no longer playing in the water. Bathing suits, like towels, sustain water and are close to the genitals. Try to ensure that children are put into dry clothes when they have finished playing in the water. Another aid to prevention is to use unscented and uncolored toilet paper. This is a known cause of yeast infections in females and could most likely have the same effect on a young girl.


http://www.amoils.com/treatment/yeast-infection/yeast-infection-children.html



I am not posting this to argue points, Just to see the other side. As long as there is a possible real explanation for the irritation or tears in Jon Benet, I have to err on that side. To me Patsy's explanation completely fits with the injuries, As far as the hymen is concerned do we even know what kind she was born with? Could it have been the result of creams being applied, or could she have been born with less of one or none?

I am willing to go with you and listen but I need to show you where I am coming from too.
 
I am sure he examined her vulva. That would be part of an external exam, certainly. But to see the eroded hymen or any bruising in her vagina, he'd need to use a speculum. I don't believe you can see the hymen just by spreading her labia and looking. He never mentioned doing any kind of swabbing. I think he felt (or WANTED to think) her irritation was due to her chronic wetting/soiling or bubble baths.
These CAN all cause irritation (like a diaper rash) but NONE of them cause an eroded hymen, widened vaginal canal or bruising IN the vagina.

Totally agree with 95% of your post.

I have to diverge opinions on the visibility of the hymen, which from everything I've read and seen, is generally located just inside the labia at the entrance to the vagina.

As seen at the following link, these shots are of the hymen made visible by the girl lying suppine in a frog leg position. No speculum needed.

warning graphic medical photo a link

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/915841-clinical#a0217
 
This absolutely enrages me, but I will calmly state that NO child will "touch herself" to the extent that her hymen will erode or to the extent that she will BLEED. Girls that young would not masturbate unless they had been molested and were touched by someone else, even another child. JB also had a MUCH wider vaginal canal than normal for a child her age, even allowing for differences in various anatomy.
The coroner can TELL that some of the inflammation/vascular congestion occurred more than 24 hours previously because he is a DOCTOR and a Medical Examiner and they know exactly how long before death something like that will occur. Bruising also has a fairly standard progression and does not occur AFTER death so the doctor can tell approximately when they were caused. The coroner's report IS factual. It isn't his OPINION. It is FACT. The written report is his findings. His OPINION on what caused them may be shared with LE but will not be put in the written report.
EVERY forensic expert that read that report, or saw the body, stated that there was evidence of prior (at least 24 hours before) molestation as well as the acute penetration that happened that night.
If you do not understand the report, PM me and I will try to explain.

You can not say this for every child. There are some children who get great pleasure from discovering themselves. I just recently had an acquaintance say her 5 yr old had started this kind of behavior. No abuse, no history. It does happen. I don't think she would be trying to hurt herself but she may have done something that made her feel good and wanted to repeat it.

Not everything goes back to sexual abuse.

AS for the bleeding if she had fissures that had occurred as a result of chronic yeast infections, It is an explanation for the the bleeding.

From what I have been reading it is a common result from Yeast infections.

It could be that in giving her meds, creams they were inserted too deeply and caused the hymen issues. Most yeast meds come with applicators.

The thing is we have a family who has never had any complaints, allegations, No history of sexual abuse with his other children. I just don't see it here.

I need to look at all the possibilities and choose the one that most fits the situation for me.

Also in the interest of not over taking this thread, as I ask and have things explained to me, Should I start a thread with my questions and answers? I don't want to cause any undo sidetracking of the original purpose of this thread. Thank you!!
 

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