Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder? #2

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'Making a Murderer' subject seeks pardon, commutation

A man convicted of rape and murder when he was a teenager whose story was documented in the 2015 Netflix series "Making a Murderer" is asking Wisconsin's governor for a pardon or commutation of his life prison sentence, attorneys said Wednesday.

'Making a Murderer' subject seeks pardon, commutation
 
https://acefiling.wicourts.gov/document/eFiled/2017AP002288/248753

Zellner has filed Avery's appeal. For those of us that have followed the last few years, there are no bombshell's. For those that haven't, it does give a condensed version of what has been filed in the last few years and the sequence of events, if you can follow it lol I am not sure how easy it is to follow if you are unaware of all the filings and what has happened in the circuit courts.

It's just another step in such a long process...
 
rkendmar said:
I'm just curious, not trying to be argumentative:
1) I'm wondering if you watched both Making of a Murderer 1 & 2?
2) I'm wondering what you thought of the forensic evidence and the experts' opinions of the evidence in #2?
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I have watched both documentaries and can honestly say im mostly confused about the whole case.
I can't say for certain SA kiled her but its hard to get around her bones being in the firepit, the car on the property, and nobody seeing or hearing from you after she was seen with avery. Its all circumstantial but its strong indications of his involvement.

The problem i have with the prosecutions case is that if she was in his bedroom tied up and repeatedly raped where is the dna or biological evidence to support that? I dont care how well he clesned up afterwards i cant imagine him getting everything cleaned and if he did clean his room that thoroughly i cant imagine him missing her car key. Its really hard to swallow that.

When i watch and listen to him and the rest of that family i get the feeling they all are keeping some really dark secrets. I think they are capable of doing what he is accussed of. I think that family is very dsyfunctional.

I honestly dont know how he got convicted because i dont see where the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Btw im new here this is my first post. I hope i did it right and did not violate any rules or basic decorums.
 
Trouble1321075 said:
I have watched both documentaries and can honestly say im mostly confused about the whole case.
I can't say for certain SA kiled her but its hard to get around her bones being in the firepit, the car on the property, and nobody seeing or hearing from you after she was seen with avery. Its all circumstantial but its strong indications of his involvement.

The problem i have with the prosecutions case is that if she was in his bedroom tied up and repeatedly raped where is the dna or biological evidence to support that? I dont care how well he clesned up afterwards i cant imagine him getting everything cleaned and if he did clean his room that thoroughly i cant imagine him missing her car key. Its really hard to swallow that.

When i watch and listen to him and the rest of that family i get the feeling they all are keeping some really dark secrets. I think they are capable of doing what he is accussed of. I think that family is very dsyfunctional.

I honestly dont know how he got convicted because i dont see where the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Btw im new here this is my first post. I hope i did it right and did not violate any rules or basic decorums.
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Hi and welcome,

You seem like you've read quite a bit about the case, and you have the same stance as me by the sound if it. I'm swayed more towards guilt than innocence but I agree that there is evidence for either side. There's just too many coincidences imo for it not to be him, but as you said, was there enough evidence to convict him?.... I don't know if I could have.

If he was truly innocent then why didnt he go back to work after she left? Why did he claim to be home alone, when admitting he had a fire that night with BD would have been his perfect alibi? How unlucky that his blood is in TH car, and he just so happens to have a deep cut on his finger that's healing over?

Also BD statements, which are admittedly all over the place, but he never waivers or changes his mind through all the interrogations that she was sexually assaulted by them both, and when questioned about TH having a tattoo on her stomach he never agrees with LE that he saw one, and that's because he never saw one, LE were testing if they could coerce him into saying he saw one and he never did because TH didn't have one. MOO
 
Trouble1321075 said:
I have watched both documentaries and can honestly say im mostly confused about the whole case.
I can't say for certain SA kiled her but its hard to get around her bones being in the firepit, the car on the property, and nobody seeing or hearing from you after she was seen with avery. Its all circumstantial but its strong indications of his involvement.

The problem i have with the prosecutions case is that if she was in his bedroom tied up and repeatedly raped where is the dna or biological evidence to support that? I dont care how well he clesned up afterwards i cant imagine him getting everything cleaned and if he did clean his room that thoroughly i cant imagine him missing her car key. Its really hard to swallow that.

When i watch and listen to him and the rest of that family i get the feeling they all are keeping some really dark secrets. I think they are capable of doing what he is accussed of. I think that family is very dsyfunctional.

I honestly dont know how he got convicted because i dont see where the prosecution proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Btw im new here this is my first post. I hope i did it right and did not violate any rules or basic decorums.
Click to expand...


Welcome to Websleuths! :) I tend to agree about SA, that I could see it being possible, but yet, I'm not sure that it was in this case and I have some serious issues with the prosecutions case. On top of that, all the other issues with the lawsuit around that time... it just isn't as clear cut as it appears IMO.

Brendan... I don't believe he had anything to do with it at all.

There are a ton of threads here about the case, a lot of information, a lot of links to more information! just holler if you are looking for anything and can't find it :)
 
missy1974 said:
Welcome to Websleuths! :) I tend to agree about SA, that I could see it being possible, but yet, I'm not sure that it was in this case and I have some serious issues with the prosecutions case. On top of that, all the other issues with the lawsuit around that time... it just isn't as clear cut as it appears IMO.

Brendan... I don't believe he had anything to do with it at all.

There are a ton of threads here about the case, a lot of information, a lot of links to more information! just holler if you are looking for anything and can't find it :)
Click to expand...

Hi Missy, sorry I know the reply wasn't to me but I'm interested in knowing what you feel may have happened in this case?

You pointed me in the right direction of where to start on this case over a year ago now and I know you have a wealth of knowledge in this case. I hope you don't feel I'm challenging you or being argumentative as I'm not, I'm just genuinely interested in what your opinion is.

I'm a fence sitter but feel SA is more likely guilty than innocent, but you have much more knowledge than me, and most other people, so I'm really interested in what your opinion is? Thanks:)
 
MummyRatcliffe said:
Hi Missy, sorry I know the reply wasn't to me but I'm interested in knowing what you feel may have happened in this case?

You pointed me in the right direction of where to start on this case over a year ago now and I know you have a wealth of knowledge in this case. I hope you don't feel I'm challenging you or being argumentative as I'm not, I'm just genuinely interested in what your opinion is.

I'm a fence sitter but feel SA is more likely guilty than innocent, but you have much more knowledge than me, and most other people, so I'm really interested in what your opinion is? Thanks:)
Click to expand...

Sorry for not responding sooner, real life has been busy :)

Over the years I think my thoughts have changed as more information comes out, and information just continues to come out all the time (which amazes me lol). I don't know who I think did it if it wasn't SA. I think there are some reasonable possibilities, like Bobby. I think that there is some information out there that supports the RAV4 being planted, I think there are things that were not done according to the law that makes some look sketchy but they may not have had anything to do with the murder (like the ex boyfriend). I also think that some people easily dismiss the lawsuit and everything that came with it as a motive to make sure everything pointed to SA. It doesn't mean that I think that LE framed him though, they could have truly believed that he did it and were "helping" the case against him.

I am open to SA being guilty, and I'm okay with him being in prison while Zellner does her thing. Right now, I still tend to lean towards the not guilty side though. I'm not okay with Brendan being in prison only because I don't believe for a second that he is guilty or had anything to do with it even if Steven did. I like a good discussion about it, I wish someone could convince me one way or the other about Steven lol

Not sure that answered your question haha I really do not have a "theory", I have continued to keep up with the case, I read all the new filings, I read a bunch of theories on reddit and elsewhere but there never seems to be one theory that I can 100% get behind, which includes the States theory. This is one of those cases that I hope some day to just know the truth!
 
missy1974 said:
Welcome to Websleuths! :) I tend to agree about SA, that I could see it being possible, but yet, I'm not sure that it was in this case and I have some serious issues with the prosecutions case. On top of that, all the other issues with the lawsuit around that time... it just isn't as clear cut as it appears IMO.

Brendan... I don't believe he had anything to do with it at all.

There are a ton of threads here about the case, a lot of information, a lot of links to more information! just holler if you are looking for anything and can't find it :)
Click to expand...
This thing sorta reminds me of the casey anthony case in that he looks guility but i think if i were on the jury i would of voted not guility because i dont see the prosecution proved their case.
 
MummyRatcliffe said:
Hi and welcome,

You seem like you've read quite a bit about the case, and you have the same stance as me by the sound if it. I'm swayed more towards guilt than innocence but I agree that there is evidence for either side. There's just too many coincidences imo for it not to be him, but as you said, was there enough evidence to convict him?.... I don't know if I could have.

If he was truly innocent then why didnt he go back to work after she left? Why did he claim to be home alone, when admitting he had a fire that night with BD would have been his perfect alibi? How unlucky that his blood is in TH car, and he just so happens to have a deep cut on his finger that's healing over?

Also BD statements, which are admittedly all over the place, but he never waivers or changes his mind through all the interrogations that she was sexually assaulted by them both, and when questioned about TH having a tattoo on her stomach he never agrees with LE that he saw one, and that's because he never saw one, LE were testing if they could coerce him into saying he saw one and he never did because TH didn't have one. MOO
Click to expand...
I think LE definitely took advantage of BD but im not convinced he was involved in it too. My gut feeling is that the entire clan is highly dsyfunctional.
 
Trouble1321075 said:
This thing sorta reminds me of the casey anthony case in that he looks guility but i think if i were on the jury i would of voted not guility because i dont see the prosecution proved their case.
Click to expand...

I wasn't surprised by the Anthony verdict like some were, but I did and still do believe she was guilty 100%! This case, I'm not.

Trouble1321075 said:
I think LE definitely took advantage of BD but im not convinced he was involved in it too. My gut feeling is that the entire clan is highly dsyfunctional.
Click to expand...

I agree about BD. I think your gut is right lol I have always had that nagging feeling that it would have to be someone close to SA, which could have been a few different people that would have had access to trailer, his yard, the salvage yard. But then I also feel like it's quite possible that evidence was moved to the yard by others as well... maybe with the idea that they were sure it was SA that did it and they were "helping" to make sure the charges stuck and he was convicted.
 
missy1974 said:
I wasn't surprised by the Anthony verdict like some were, but I did and still do believe she was guilty 100%! This case, I'm not.



I agree about BD. I think your gut is right lol I have always had that nagging feeling that it would have to be someone close to SA, which could have been a few different people that would have had access to trailer, his yard, the salvage yard. But then I also feel like it's quite possible that evidence was moved to the yard by others as well... maybe with the idea that they were sure it was SA that did it and they were "helping" to make sure the charges stuck and he was convicted.
Click to expand...
There is one thing that nags at me that gives me doubt. If SA tied her to his bed where she was repeatedly raped. Where is the DNA evidence to confirm she was in his room. As sloppy as he was with other evidence, if we believe LEs version, i find it impossible he cleaned his trailer so well that he removed sll traces of her presence in the trailer.
 
Trouble1321075 said:
There is one thing that nags at me that gives me doubt. If SA tied her to his bed where she was repeatedly raped. Where is the DNA evidence to confirm she was in his room. As sloppy as he was with other evidence, if we believe LEs version, i find it impossible he cleaned his trailer so well that he removed sll traces of her presence in the trailer.
Click to expand...

Yep! There are some people that would argue that he cleaned. IMO there is just no way that he could have cleaned all traces of DNA in his trailer. We all saw the video and the pictures of his place, I just don't believe that to be the case.

They never argued that theory at Steven's trial though, they actually dropped some charges when Brendan wouldn't testify. It was mentioned during Brendan's trial though, and was part of his "confession", just no corroborating evidence to go with it, like DNA on the bed, marks on the headboard, etc. There is a picture of Steven's bed and headboard... there is a layer of dust on it, how in the world was Teresa tied to that and the dust wasn't disturbed? Or how was it cleaned and the dust replaced? It's things like that that make it so I just cannot get on board with that theory at all.

I also think it's really sad that TH's family was and has been told that that is what happened and those were her final moments with no evidence to back that up other than a State theory and a confession riddled with inaccuracies. JMO

ETA: I think I have also read the theory that Steven covered everything in plastic first :confused:
 
missy1974 said:
Yep! There are some people that would argue that he cleaned. IMO there is just no way that he could have cleaned all traces of DNA in his trailer. We all saw the video and the pictures of his place, I just don't believe that to be the case.

They never argued that theory at Steven's trial though, they actually dropped some charges when Brendan wouldn't testify. It was mentioned during Brendan's trial though, and was part of his "confession", just no corroborating evidence to go with it, like DNA on the bed, marks on the headboard, etc. There is a picture of Steven's bed and headboard... there is a layer of dust on it, how in the world was Teresa tied to that and the dust wasn't disturbed? Or how was it cleaned and the dust replaced? It's things like that that make it so I just cannot get on board with that theory at all.

I also think it's really sad that TH's family was and has been told that that is what happened and those were her final moments with no evidence to back that up other than a State theory and a confession riddled with inaccuracies. JMO

ETA: I think I have also read the theory that Steven covered everything in plastic first :confused:
Click to expand...
What that poor family has been put through is awful. They deserve to have the truth.

I did consider that maybe he covered everything in plastic but that seems far fetched to me.
1. It would mean it was premeditated and he had everything prepared ahead of time. Its a possibility but they never produced any evidence to support premeditation
2. It would also mean he would of had to keep all the evidence contained to the area covered in plastic which also seems unlikely. I suppose its possible that she was so afraid she froze and was totslly submissive but its not very likely that she did not violently resist being tied to his bed.
3. If the dust was not disturbed. That contradicts their theory that he laid down plastic because that would disturb dust and it contradicts the notion that he cleaned up the evidence because someone trying to remove forensic evidence would of wiped down everything.

If something happened in his trailer it wasnt in his bedroom. Even if you take the word of LE about finding the key hidden in the bookshelf, you have to ask why soeone would hide a key piece of evidence like that in the same room your scrubbing clesn of evidence in case its searched. Keep in mind if SA was the one who hid the car, it would mean he moved the car after the fact.

Neither sides stories add up. What i cant get around on SA is that there is no evidence she ever left the property beyond possibly the quarry nextdoor. Its also really hard to get around BD confession, even coerced as it was. I might be able to get onboard that the police planted his blood to get a conviction but they didnt plant the car on his family's property.

I think he did kill her and i think the police think he did too. What the police cant explain is how and where it happened. Its hard to say what i would of done if i was on the jury because we dont know what they heard and what they didnt hear but i think i would not of been able to convict him even though i do think he is behind whatever happened to that poor little girl.
 
cherrymeg said:
I didn't and I usually like true crime shows. I read up on the case. This will sound ridiculous, it's his image that gives me the creeps. I know it's silly but his face and any video of him just makes me shudder. It's not a legit way to determine guilt or innocence but it will determine if I watch a show lol.
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People have been convicted and people have been acquitted based on looks. Maybe not many based 100 percent on looks but human beings are swayed by a lot of things and our society is one that places a lot of weight on how a person looks, dresses, where they live, etc. I think OJ is guilty as sin but got off because of who he is, where he lived/what he had, and how he looked. That's only one example of many.

We like to tell ourselves this kind of thing is rare but truth be told, it isn't.
 
krkrjx said:
People have been convicted and people have been acquitted based on looks. Maybe not many based 100 percent on looks but human beings are swayed by a lot of things and our society is one that places a lot of weight on how a person looks, dresses, where they live, etc. I think OJ is guilty as sin but got off because of who he is, where he lived/what he had, and how he looked. That's only one example of many.

We like to tell ourselves this kind of thing is rare but truth be told, it isn't.
Click to expand...
Your post reminds me why I'm a proponent of professional jury's that use only the evidence presented to the them from both the State and the defense to come to their verdict. JMO.
 
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