Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[CoolJ]

Not really - SA might have had gloves on for part of the time. His DNA was found in several places, including the hood latch. KZ made a big deal about the amount of his DNA on the hood latch, but if he did move the car, it was most likely dark since sunset on 10/31/05 was 4:49 pm. Fumbing for the hood latch in the dark a few times could easily have caused him to leave more DNA. SA also had 3-4 days to go back and wipe the car down. Not saying he did but anything is possible.

If he had gloves on, how did he bleed in random drips throughout the RAV?
If he took his gloves off why no fingerprints? There were 8 separate sets of latent prints found. None of them Avery's or Dassey's(Brendan at least).
How did he operate the vehicle without getting blood or "sweat" DNA on the gear shift or steering wheel or door handles?
Why such a large quantity of sweat DNA on the hood latch but none whatsoever anywhere else?
So he went back and wiped the car down of his fingerprints and DNA but was able to do that without wiping away the 8 latent sets of prints? Does that sound logical?

Do you see how the states narrative is the most outlandish theory of all? I would go as far as to say it is impossible.

 

[Tssiemer]

I don't necessarily think it happened the way the video showed;

Rsbm

What video?

 

[CoolJ]

Why ? Because Bryan and Barb say so ? Neither Bryan or Barb saw her leave the property. If Bryan and Barb say that Bobby said she left, could be that they think that alone should exonerate Brendan and Steven and NOT implicate Bobby or anyone Dassey/Tadych. I can guarantee that BT/ST know who killed Teresa and whether Brendan was involved.

Blood is thicker than water. I personally think the whole clan is a bunch of liars.
In SA's 11/9 interview, he said he went to bed @ 9pm. But Blaine and Kayla both said they saw SA by the firepit at 10 and 11pm respectively.

Yes Bryan is testifying under oath and has been saying from the beginning that Bobby told him she left.

But that is not the only time Bobby lied under oath. He also lied when he testified to being home alone and sleeping all afternoon when the computer in his room showed activity all throughout the day.

Wait, there is more. He also lied under oath when he said of where he went hunting. His phone was pinging in the opposite direction of where he said he was.

 

[CoolJ]

For those of you who subscribe to KZ's latest theory that TH drove away that Bobby flagged her down on Kuss Road and killed her ...

It is not about subscribing to a "theory". It is about coming to the realisation that the states narrative is utter B.S

1. Since Bobby had his own vehicle, who drove the Rav4 back and put it on the Avery lot ?

We don't know. This is what Zellner is trying to figure out.

2. What did Bobby do with TH's body on 10/31 - immediately burn it in Steven's burn pit ? Steven says he was home all afternoon and night, so he would've seen Bobby. As would have Brendan.

We don't know. We don't know if Bobby did anything let alone anything with TH's body

3. How did police make the connection with Bobby so they could easily find the Rav4 and get the license plate to put in the car in the salvage yard ?

We don't know. Not knowing the answers to all of these questions has nothing to do with the fact that the states narrative has been totally debunked

4. Where did police get the key to frame Steven ? Or did Bobby put it in Steven's trailer ?

Again we don't know, but since it was an unused key and on the fob by itself it likely was her spare and came from her home.

5. Who shot the 22 in Steven's garage and why would anyone shoot a gun in a garage unless they were trying to kill someone or something ? Brendan admits to being in the garage with Steven cleaning.

The owner of Stevens trailer has said he shot 1000's of bullets all over the property. It could have been shot from the outside, no?

6. Where did Bobby burn the body so police could move the bones later to SA's burn pit ?

And again, we do not know. Why would Bobby have to be the one to burn the body? Why would the police be the ones who had to have moved the bones?

 

[Sustained]

If he had gloves on, how did he bleed in random drips throughout the RAV?
If he took his gloves off why no fingerprints? There were 8 separate sets of latent prints found. None of them Avery's or Dassey's(Brendan at least).
How did he operate the vehicle without getting blood or "sweat" DNA on the gear shift or steering wheel or door handles?
Why such a large quantity of sweat DNA on the hood latch but none whatsoever anywhere else?
So he went back and wiped the car down of his fingerprints and DNA but was able to do that without wiping away the 8 latent sets of prints? Does that sound logical?

Do you see how the states narrative is the most outlandish theory of all? I would go as far as to say it is impossible.

Some possible answers to your questions and all speculation on my part ..

No fingerprints - whose fingerprints made up the set of 8 ? Can't assume they were Teresa's and could have been police or anyone with access to the car after it was found. But we know Teresa drove the car on 10/31 so someone must have wiped the steering wheel and gear shift down or Teresa had gloves on. If SA was indeed intent on cleaning the car, he might have wiped the steering wheel and gear shift, but missed the blood drop by the ignition switch. IMO, it was pitch black when he moved the car.

As for the sweat DNA, SA might have gone back to the car another day to disconnect the battery cables in preparation for crushing the car. And who knows, it might have taken SA many tries to ope the hood latch if it was pitch black out.

 

[CoolJ]

You actually believe that someone came forward 10+ years later and said he saw Halbach's RAV4. Why did this person wait all this time to come forward even if Colborn had poo-pooed him away ? Obviously, it wasn't that important for him to come forward and testify during SA's trial as that in and of itself would've possibly exonerated SA. Not only that, Buting/Strang could've asked Colborn on the stand why he didn't take the report and file it.

How did he know the car was Teresa's and not another RAV4 ? Anyone in Twin Rivers can now come forward and say they saw Teresa's car between 10/31 and 11/4.

He came forward because he saw MaM and realised that Colborn was lying. He didn't know that at the time. He told Scott Tadych this and Tadych did nothing but say he was sick and he'll talk to him later lol.

 

[CoolJ]

BBM - where is the evidence that this is true ? Maybe the day planner was left at the house.

Zellner has two witnesses who said TH took their information over the phone while she was pulled over. TH had her day planner sheet with her when she went to Avery's. Ryan somehow ended up with that day planner sheet.

 

[missy1974]

Rsbm

What video?

Zellner Experiment video's

@guruagain was able to find it a few weeks ago, just scroll down a bit in that thread I think it was shown in one of the later episodes of MaM2, but not gonna lie, I haven't finished watching lol

 

[CoolJ]

And I'm sure another expert (not hired by KZ) would come to the conclusion it would only take once or twice of opening the hood latch to leave the same DNA.

Great, that is what Zellner wants. An evidentiary hearing to have these arguments.

 

[proudfootz]

For those of you who subscribe to KZ's latest theory that TH drove away that Bobby flagged her down on Kuss Road and killed her ...

It is not about subscribing to a "theory". It is about coming to the realisation that the states narrative is utter B.S

This is the essence of the case for me: The state's theory has too many gaps and leaves too many unexplained facts to compel my belief beyond a reasonable doubt.

1. Since Bobby had his own vehicle, who drove the Rav4 back and put it on the Avery lot ?

We don't know. This is what Zellner is trying to figure out.

I wonder if they sweated Bobby as hard as they sweated Brendan whether they might have solved the crime.

2. What did Bobby do with TH's body on 10/31 - immediately burn it in Steven's burn pit ? Steven says he was home all afternoon and night, so he would've seen Bobby. As would have Brendan.

We don't know. We don't know if Bobby did anything let alone anything with TH's body

IMO neither Teresa nor any of her things were actually burned in Steven's burn pit or burn barrel. The evidence seems to indicate it was planted, as Steven has maintained from day one.

3. How did police make the connection with Bobby so they could easily find the Rav4 and get the license plate to put in the car in the salvage yard ?

We don't know. Not knowing the answers to all of these questions has nothing to do with the fact that the states narrative has been totally debunked

IIRC we now have an explanation from MaM2 for Colburn's previously inexplicable call about Teresa's license plate number before the RAV was officially 'found' - a witness claims to have spotted it, recognized it from a flyer, and reported it to Colburn personally.

4. Where did police get the key to frame Steven ? Or did Bobby put it in Steven's trailer ?

Again we don't know, but since it was an unused key and on the fob by itself it likely was her spare and came from her home.

It's my opinion it was law enforcement employees who planted the key in plain sight in a tiny room that had been searched a few times already and relied on their status as 'honest cops' to get away with it.

5. Who shot the 22 in Steven's garage and why would anyone shoot a gun in a garage unless they were trying to kill someone or something ? Brendan admits to being in the garage with Steven cleaning.

The owner of Stevens trailer has said he shot 1000's of bullets all over the property. It could have been shot from the outside, no?

In MaM2 one of Zellener's ballistics experts gives the opinion that at least one of the bullet holes in the garage is from the outside going in. So if indeed the bullet fragment #FL originated inside the garage it could have been a stray bullet that was there for years.

6. Where did Bobby burn the body so police could move the bones later to SA's burn pit ?

And again, we do not know. Why would Bobby have to be the one to burn the body? Why would the police be the ones who had to have moved the bones?

While we don't have all the answers to how the crime was committed, nor all the answers for exactly how a frame up might have been orchestrated, it seems to me we have a better outline of a plausible scenario that actually tries to account for facts left out by the prosecution case.

All MOO of course.

 

[proudfootz]

4. KZ thinks it could be from her home. The police took several things from her residence.

RSBM

I did find it odd that law enforcement employees took things from Teresa's home and brought them to Avery Salvage Yard.

In the interest of preventing cross-contamination, you'd think the smart thing to do would be to keep the stuff separate.

Incompetence or malice? One or the other. Or both.

 

[Sustained]

Yes Bryan is testifying under oath and has been saying from the beginning that Bobby told him she left.

But that is not the only time Bobby lied under oath. He also lied when he testified to being home alone and sleeping all afternoon when the computer in his room showed activity all throughout the day.

Wait, there is more. He also lied under oath when he said of where he went hunting. His phone was pinging in the opposite direction of where he said he was.

How do you know Bryan is not lying under oath ?

 

[Sustained]

He came forward because he saw MaM and realised that Colborn was lying. He didn't know that at the time. He told Scott Tadych this and Tadych did nothing but say he was sick and he'll talk to him later lol.

The Avery trial was all folks talked about in Twin Rivers and Manitowoc and this guy comes forward 10 years later with info that might have exonerated SA at the time ????? And once again, how did this guy know that the vehicle he saw by the bridge was Teresa's ? Did he snap a pic of the license plate ? No other green RAV4s around ?

 

[Sustained]

Zellner has two witnesses who said TH took their information over the phone while she was pulled over. TH had her day planner sheet with her when she went to Avery's. Ryan somehow ended up with that day planner sheet.

How do you know that she forget her day planner that day and was just writing notes on scrap paper ? Is there an image of the actual day planner for 10/31/05 ?

 

[Karinna]

The Avery trial was all folks talked about in Twin Rivers and Manitowoc and this guy comes forward 10 years later with info that might have exonerated SA at the time ????? And once again, how did this guy know that the vehicle he saw by the bridge was Teresa's ? Did he snap a pic of the license plate ? No other green RAV4s around ?

The new witness. An additional witness came forward to Zellner saying that two days before Teresa's car was discovered on Avery's property, he spotted a teal green RAV4 parked off Route 147. The next day, he saw Teresa missing poster (with the car info on it), and gave that tip to a Manitowoc police officer, whom he identified as Andy Colborn. This is the same officer who made the mysterious dispatch call inquiring about Teresa's vehicle before it was found on Avery's property. He showed proof he texted Scott Tadych, Brendan Dassey's stepfather, to let him know about this potential new evidence, but Tadych never followed up. Zellner later discovered that Tadych's trailer was just three-tenths of a mile down the road from the RAV4 sighting. Tadych and Bobby Dassey both provided alibis for each other, stating that they drove past one another on Route 147 during the time Teresa was at the Avery property.
Making a Murderer: 8 New Pieces of Evidence We Learned in Season 2 | TV Guide

 

[Karinna]

How do you know that she forget her day planner that day and was just writing notes on scrap paper ? Is there an image of the actual day planner for 10/31/05 ?

The day planner. Teresa spoke with two people on the day of her disappearance to set up appointments, which she wrote down in her planner while she was out driving. Zellner calculated that Teresa would not have had enough time between appointments to drop her planner off at her house, and yet Hillegas provided the page from her day planner as evidence. Zellner argues that since Teresa couldn't have dropped the planner off at home, it must have been in her car when she was killed, and the only way Ryan Hillegas would have had it was if he'd had access to the car before it was found on the Avery property.

 

[Sustained]

The Avery clan lies and lies and lies ...

From this website ...

What Making a Murderer didn't tell you

We have these tidbits ...

• In Steven's earliest interviews, he first claims Teresa came into his trailer, where he paid her and she left. Once the car is found, he changes his story and claims he went to her car to pay her.
• Also in Steven's earliest interviews, he lies about his activities on 10/31. He denies having used the burn barrel or burn pit recently. He claims to have spent most of the afternoon and evening alone in his trailer, not going back to work without informing anyone, which was very rare for him. He says he was in bed by 9pm. However, multiple witnesses see him using both the barrel and pit, and there is a recorded phone call from 9pm where he tells Jodi Brendan is over and they've been doing some cleaning. The bones and electronics and bullet had not been found yet, so it's unclear why an innocent man would lie about having fires and cleaning his garage with his nephew.
• In Brendan's Nov 6 interview, he also lies about spending the night with Avery. He says he went over to Avery's to help push a car into the garage, but went home to eat supper alone and did not see Steven again until the next morning. Again, it is unclear why someone who had no idea there was a body in the fire would lie about having a bonfire with his uncle.

 

[Karinna]

And another interesting point from the same link:
The hood latch DNA. When Avery was first arrested, he was taken to a hospital to give DNA samples to investigators. Swabs were taken of his groin area before the nurse on the case realized that the warrant did not call for groin swabs. Lead investigator Tom Fassbender noted that the swabs were disposed of, but the nurse did not. A high concentration of Avery's DNA was found on Teresa's RAV4 hood latch, but the amount found is inconsistent with the amount you'd normally find from touch DNA. Zellner theorized that investigators simply renamed the groin swab "hood latch swab," which is why there was such a high presence of DNA on it.

 

[Sustained]

The new witness. An additional witness came forward to Zellner saying that two days before Teresa's car was discovered on Avery's property, he spotted a teal green RAV4 parked off Route 147. The next day, he saw Teresa missing poster (with the car info on it), and gave that tip to a Manitowoc police officer, whom he identified as Andy Colborn. This is the same officer who made the mysterious dispatch call inquiring about Teresa's vehicle before it was found on Avery's property. He showed proof he texted Scott Tadych, Brendan Dassey's stepfather, to let him know about this potential new evidence, but Tadych never followed up. Zellner later discovered that Tadych's trailer was just three-tenths of a mile down the road from the RAV4 sighting. Tadych and Bobby Dassey both provided alibis for each other, stating that they drove past one another on Route 147 during the time Teresa was at the Avery property.
Making a Murderer: 8 New Pieces of Evidence We Learned in Season 2 | TV Guide

I watched MaM2 and am well aware of the witness coming forward 10 years later or so - but still, there is zero proof that the car was even Teresa's and only his word he spoke directly to Colborn.

 

[Sustained]

The day planner. Teresa spoke with two people on the day of her disappearance to set up appointments, which she wrote down in her planner while she was out driving. Zellner calculated that Teresa would not have had enough time between appointments to drop her planner off at her house, and yet Hillegas provided the page from her day planner as evidence. Zellner argues that since Teresa couldn't have dropped the planner off at home, it must have been in her car when she was killed, and the only way Ryan Hillegas would have had it was if he'd had access to the car before it was found on the Avery property.

On what day did Hillegas provide the day planner as evidence to the police and is there a printout/screenshot of what was written in the day planner ?