Suicide vs Murder

Discussion in 'Phoebe Prince' started by Paladine, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This thread will be for exploring different theory's concerning Phoebe's death.
    To attempt to prove, or disprove, suicide/murder possibilities...
     
  2. Loading...


  3. fhc

    fhc New Member

    Messages:
    4,499
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I hadn't even considered this possibility. Is there any specific evidence that would lead us to question?
     
  4. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Evidence? No. We are exploring the possibilty. Some people have questions, including myself. Unfortunately, I'm just on my way out, right now...but l'll be back tomorrow to gather what info I can. And I know some others wanted this thread, too. I'm sure they'll be posting...we'll see what we can pull together...
     
  5. Lou Cyper

    Lou Cyper New Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The lack of a note and the suddenness could lead to a murder suggestion.
     
  6. thebear14

    thebear14 New Member

    Messages:
    149
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for starting this thread, Paladine ;) I know you and at least WhaddupYo have been questioning this possibility at least for the past week or two and Kris has really brought in some interesting points and thoughts in the other thread.

    I'm kind of torn, myself. I would hope that the police and doctor who performed the autopsy would have picked up on any foul play but who knows. I don't have a lot of faith right now in the people in charge in this town.

    I don't have any new thoughts really to add here but just wanted to say thanks for adding this and looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts here.
     
  7. Phoenixfla

    Phoenixfla New Member

    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Kris brought up some a good points in the other thread.

    1. The length of the scarf. Would it be difficult to have enough length to tie both ends.
    2. She had just gotten that scarf from her sister for christmas, from what I understand. It would seem that she would choose another item to use.
    3. Location - if you look in the photo thread, you can see that the rear staircase is outside and in a very open location. One would not think that she would choose that location if she did not want to be discovered by her younger sister, or other siblings. The open location also works against the murder theory, as it would have been more apt for someone witnessing a murder.
    4. She had plugged her phone in to charge.

    I think it is unlikely that it was a murder, but I would not exclude the possibility. Dont want to sound morbid, but it would be nice if someone examined the way the scarf was tied as it would probably be tied different if it was a suicude as opposed to a murder. Just some things to think about.:waitasec:
     
  8. Boytwnmom

    Boytwnmom Verified Attorney

    Messages:
    1,632
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    treating a scene as it apepars, i.e. person hung themself, and everything follows from that. I'm looking for info that would indicate whether this is a reasonable area of review or completely out there. I found this article which discusses errors in both ways, homicide determination when its really suicide and vice versa.http://www.crimeandclues.com/index.php/death-investigation/65-pathology/99-ligature-strangulation-not-very-common-but-contested-too-often

    Also saw this story from 2006 of an actress whose death was initially ruled a suicidehttp://www.cinematical.com/2006/11/06/adrienne-shelly-update-police-say-its-murder-not-suicide/

    On the other hand there are many articles about a rising teen girl suicide rate in 2004 and the method changing to hanging or asphyxiation. One article I read speculated about that rise being linked to the "choking game" apparently played by many young people, another linked it to the rise in the use of prescription anti-depressants by teens.

    It is hard to seriously speculate as we have so little to go on in terms of actual police reports, autopsy results, investigative notes so we have no idea how thorough the investigation was, whether there was an immediate conclusion that she had committed suicide and everything flowed from that or whether they gathered facts and drew no conclusion until all the evidence was evaluated. I would really like the state AG's office or the FBI or some agency take an independent look here as I'm not really trusting local officials to any great extent. I also highly doubt local LE have much experience with homicide investigations in South Hadley so even if they meant well how much would escape their notice because of lack of familiarity. Did they just accept what their eyes told them initially, girl killed herself?
     
  9. fumbling

    fumbling New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The first thing is was there any stepchair under her? Any photos taken of the "suicide" scene before she was taken down? I would not like such a terrible scene to be published ever but if a photo showed the absence of anything to step off of, might be supportive of the murder theory by the jealousy-driven harassers? Regardless, they need to serve some serious jail time and the administrators FIRED and a BIG successful civil suit for millions of dollars to set an historic example and get the total attention of school teachers/administrators/faculty/student body on anti-harassment/campus safety in the future so kids can get educated and contribute to society, as Phoebe appeared to be on the way to be with her optimism and writing ability.
     
  10. daisy7

    daisy7 Retired WS Staff

    Messages:
    12,539
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for starting the thread! I'm gonna move over some posts that I think belong here. Everyone, please let me know other posts that should be here (tell me the post #). Thanks!
     
  11. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    23,603
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    OK here is the deal. I found out that permission was given to start this topic,

    My sincere apologies for the mixed message. I should have checked with the mods first before I shut this down.

    Since permission was already given I am going to re-open the thread with the understanding that you are not to point fingers are people.

    This has been ruled a suicide. The worst thing we can do is to point fingers at an innocent person claiming they killed someone when a murder didn't even take place.

    Please be careful and think of the family while posting. That's all I ask.

    Thanks,
    Tricia
     
  12. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Will do, Tricia. Thank you. We will focus on the logistics, crime scene, house, Phoebes state of mind, etc. Not specific people.
     
  13. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This goes to possible state of mind, on the day of death...
    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/p...h-2141008.html
     
  14. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Good points, boytwnmom. I'm going to go and read your links, now.

    I see this thread being more helpful as reports are released. We are lacking evidence..but we have to start somewhere.
     
  15. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Good questions. No idea on crime scene photos, hopefully we'll learn more at trial regarding that. We first need to be sure, where she was. In looking at the house photos, I see a chair and table outside, near the outside stairs. (see pic)

    But some are thinking it was an interior rear stairwell. I do see what appears to be a doorway, on the left rear of the house...(see pic with fence)

    But if it was there, inside...I can only envision a stairwell going up with a landing at the top, and possibly a railing...where and how would she tie herself?



    More questions...
     
  16. WaddupYo

    WaddupYo New Member

    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/THANK-YOU-District-Attorney-Elizabeth-Scheibel/104860852883889?v=wall

    just a thought - Phoebe was walking home from school the bullys followed her and taunting at her theres something missing a time frame Phoebe plugged her cell phone in and there was no suicide note so what if not what if (just saying n thinking)she was a tiny girl we need to find out who was in that car cuz Im thinkin...g that if no one was home which she wasnt found till hours later I think it might be murder - no witnesses no note cell plugged in hhhh mmmmm-I dunno -just thinking - somethings not right - she wasnt thinking suicide if she plugged her cell in - more investigation - more questions - no one was home -could be murder-just thinking
     
  17. OrdinaryLife

    OrdinaryLife New Member

    Messages:
    5,676
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, after reading there and visiting the other *hate* sites that poster belongs to, I take "him" about as serious as a wee splinter. Annoying, but will eventually work its way out.

    Sorry, WaddupYo. I'm not shooting the messenger. :) I just take what is written by these "people" for what it's worth. Not much.... I can't believe some of these on FB still exist and haven't been pulled.

    imvho
     
  18. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For background: article from morning of Jan. 15th, the day after Phoebe died...
    http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/investigator_probe_apparent_su.html
     
  19. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    More background, from Jan. 15th 1:33 p.m...
    http://www.wggb.com/Global/story.asp?S=11829632&nav=menu1460_2
     
  20. Paladine

    Paladine New Member

    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  21. Kris

    Kris New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey, sorry haven't been on, been busy over the past few days. I saw a reply to one of my posts in the other thread which, to say the least, infuriated me. I will not name names, but the poster sort of implied that I may have a less than sincere motivation for posting my questions and theories surrounding Phoebe's death, and may be intentionally causing more undue harm to her family. Let me say this CLEARLY.. My intentions are sincere, and I am not intending to cause undue harm to her family. Did it ever occur to anyone that there are many more deaths out there that were ruled suicide with far more evidence as such, but later to be determined as a homicide? And what if that one or few people didn't stand up and question the method of death, or the investigation thereof? So far I have not seen one piece of truly compelling evidence to say with absolute certainty it was a suicide, not even the coroner's report (as stated in the court docs against one of the girls). That does not mean that I am saying with absolute certainty that it was murder, but too many questions and inconsistencies remain. I am an extremely critical thinker, a hopeless cynic, and furthermore, absolutely distrustful of the system (a result of me being bullied) The more I read about this case, the more questions I see unanswered. The few that have been have holes big enough you can drive a truck through. To address the implication that I may be harming the family by raising such questions - ask yourself this: If one of your family member was found dead of an "apparent" suicide, whom you knew would not do so in such a way, would you not want someone to raise the question? Would you rather live with the memory of your loved one accused of being a coward for taking their own life, or thinking that you may have been one of the causes for their suicide, due to lack of a note? That they were willing to leave you behind, or let you find them in such a horrific way? But then again what do I know, I've only known a few people who offed themselves, and a couple others who tried. Furthermore, I have a life, not much of one, but still a life. I have better things to do than waste my time screaming at my computer, yet I still do. Why? Because I care. There are too many senseless deaths, and/ or too many lives ruined because of bullying, and it's not too far of a jump to say that bullying can lead to murder. Oh just one more thing, below is a link for anyone interested on 5 cases that were "ruled" suicide, but proven otherwise. It's an extract from a CBS article with a link to the full article at the bottom of the page. It also mentions the devastation of the families thinking it was a suicide vs the realization that it was murder. Case 2 and case 5 seem to be the most pertinent.

    http://www.sshep.com/not_suicide.htm

    Sorry if I offended anyone.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice