Taking the veil

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by Floh, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. Floh

    Floh Former Member

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    I would like to see this woman take the veil right out of Britain and into a country which lives by middle-aged principles. surely she would feel more comfortable?

    when you live in a country, you abide by it's culture, IMO!

    Aishah Azmi, the Muslim teaching assistant who refused to remove her veil during lessons, has won her employment tribunal case for victimisation.
    But the woman, who was suspended on full pay, lost her claims for discrimination and harassment, Kirkless council said.

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1237944,00.html

    Being awarded £1,100 (2,065.35 USD) for "injury to feelings" after she succeeded in her claim of victimisation is ludicrous!

    should children be 'taught' by women in veils? i don't happen to think so.

    Much more detailed story with a bit of background from the BBC:

    Headfield Church of England Junior School, which has 546 pupils, suspended Ms Azmi because it said pupils found it hard to understand her during lessons.

    much more detailed story with a bit of background from the BBC:

    Headfield Church of England Junior School, which has 546 pupils, suspended Ms Azmi because it said pupils found it hard to understand her during lessons.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6066726.stm
     
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  3. Amraann

    Amraann Former Member

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    I must be missing something here.
    Certainly when she was interviewed she was veiled? Did the topic not come up?
    Or did she show up to the interview unvieled which IMO would be misleading..

    Floh why don't you think she should teach vieled?
    I don't see how that would affect her teaching ability??
     
  4. Floh

    Floh Former Member

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    Surely communication is all and someone veiled doesn't show their face - their emotions. that's my opinion.
     
  5. Floh

    Floh Former Member

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    The Prime Minister's concerns over face veils:

    Tony Blair has said the wearing of full face veils by Muslim women is a "mark of separation" and made some "outside the community feel uncomfortable".

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6058672.stm

    I'm not one to normally agree with Tony Blair, but in this instance i do!

    "And then, there's a second issue, which is about Islam itself and how Islam comes to terms with - and is comfortable with - the modern world."

    yes.

    Hey - i speak as one with a half brother and sister who are Pakistani Muslims and i have every respect for their religion. but not in this instance.
     
  6. narlacat

    narlacat Former Member

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    I agree.
    I find it very disconcerting when I get in a taxi and the driver doesn't speak English or just a few words here and there.
    It's like, fgs the least you can do is go and learn our language...
     
  7. Floh

    Floh Former Member

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    How about this idea, Amraann: thinking of school shootings - how do you know the person coming into the school has a right to be there? with all the terrorist threats, how would it be known someone with a complete face covering was the person they claimed to be? how safe is that?

    and Britain has just attained the distinction of being the number one hit target for al-Qaeda:

    Al-Qaeda has become more organised and sophisticated and has made Britain its top target, counter-terrorism officials have told the BBC.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6065460.stm
     
  8. Floh

    Floh Former Member

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  9. Amraann

    Amraann Former Member

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    Hey Floh ...Chill.
    I was just asking you a question.
    I don't know how you would know who the person is but my point is if they hired her knowing she wore a veil then they should have thought of that before hiring.

    Your not going to catch me defending the Muslims. I personally think the entire region should be turned into a crator.
     
  10. wannabesleuthkk

    wannabesleuthkk Hound Dog

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    a crator huh? maybe a pkg lot? we're gonna get in trouble if i go on about how and why i think that's just too funny. I'll keep it to myself for now. I'm such an OPEN minded person really, and respect other people's religions and let them believe whatever they want (even tho they're wrong, 'cause mine's the only true one, 'cause if i didn't believe with absolute conviction that mine was the true way, then why bother calling yourself a follower of 'such and such' and then go "well they could be right too" blah blah)
    my point was, i think, i'm so convinced that my God is the one and only then i don't feel to compelled to argue about it. so there. If a woman's veil should be respected as an item of religious significance to her dandy!
    She just shouldn't work for the TSA or anything that would cause a security or health risk to the rest of us. When it comes to homeland security i'm adamant. If however working around someone whose face is covered is just annoying to you, then get over it. People should really try to reach a balance on this thing, geez. Common sense, where'd ya go?
     
  11. sandraladeda

    sandraladeda Inactive

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    OMG!

    I have to reread this thread to see if there are any posts which don't sound appallingly racist and prejudiced!! :(

    imho
     
  12. wannabesleuthkk

    wannabesleuthkk Hound Dog

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    hard to tell from my words? sorry, but I do feel that way in love. i love my neighbors. I love people of other nations and all religions. i am not racist but you may find me somewhat prejudice. and No tact is not my strong suit.
    i'll admit to being prejudiced toward idiots with twisted ideologys who like to blow up innocent children. that's all. Yes it is contradictory of me to grin at silly jokes about crators and parking lots. i'd never wish harm on anyone of any country of any religion. Same reason i'm against the death penalty. For everyone. Everyone. Terrorists, pedophiles alike. It's not our call. it's His.
    I apologize to anyone i've offended with my twisted sense of humor.
    No death penalty, but i still grin when i hear about some dingbats that blow themselves up a mile from their target, killing noone but themselves. Is it bad of me to think 'one more dead terrorist, not bad'.
    hope that brings a little clarity to all...
    kk
     
  13. Jacobi

    Jacobi New Member

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    I, too, am dismayed at some of the sentiments expressed in this thread.
     
  14. Penelope631

    Penelope631 Former Member

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    I feel that they should abide by the rules of what ever country they are in. If a woman is in their country they have to be veiled to some extent,wether it is a full veil or just something on their head, depending on the country.
     
  15. narlacat

    narlacat Former Member

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    How so Sandra?
    Is it racist to expect people to talk English when they want to live in an English speaking country??
    I don't think so.
     
  16. hoppyfrog

    hoppyfrog Retired WS Staff

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    She indeed showed up to the interview unveiled. I heard a radio news story about it but can't remember which radio station. My apologies.

    About your other question: students apparently found it difficult to understand her because of the veil, because they couldn't read her facial expressions and body language.
     
  17. sleuthin4fun

    sleuthin4fun Member

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    What I don't understand is if this is a school affiliated with The Church of England which is a Protestant/Christian faith why did they hire a Muslim teacher? Before anyone says I am being racist I am not. She may very well be a good teacher but you can bet that Muslims wouldn't want a Christian teaching in their school.
     
  18. SadieMae

    SadieMae Former Member

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    I am also. I am Christian, and I would take it as an insult to my religious beliefs if I were not allowed to wear my crucifix pendant (or any other symbol of my faith) in a country because it's not the belief of the majority. If she wants to be veiled, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with it. It's her religious belief to be veiled.
     
  19. reb

    reb New Member

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    once again,, this is not a matter of 'religious beliefs'. this is a matter of the simple, basic, civilized human need to be able to SEE A PERSON'S FACE while dealing with someone. how are you supposed to read their lips (which is a big part of hearing) or see their facial expressions, which is a very basic part of human communication?? no way would i want to live in a place where women are walking around dressed like the freakin' grim reaper! if she wants to join a western country, AND the 21st century, she should leave her dark-ages religious beliefs behind and not try to force it onto people there. there's something fundamentally WRONG with a religion/culture that forces women to cover their head and entire bodies with a black sheet, UNDER THREAT OF VIOLENCE. the way they see it, the women have to hide from the men so they don't degrade them, objectify and rape them. hello--- WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?? the west is far from perfect-- but at least we are evolved enough that our law does its best to hold men accountable for their actions, and we don't make the women hide themselves so the evil men won't rape them. talk about blaming the victim! modesty is one thing, but this is ridiculous. that is some kind of attitude from the stone age!! if those women can accept that and want to live under this threat then fine, but do so in your own country. don't come to someone else's and force them to accept it!!!!!!!!!!!

    all you who are crying 'religious persecution'... keep in mind these are the same people who see you as the 'western devil' and want to kill you. blair is 100% right-- they are separatists. and these being fundamentalist muslims.. who the heck do you think the terrorists are?? fundamentalist muslims. and that doesn't bother anyone....?? we need to wake up and smell the coffee quick. but like i always say,, this spineless "pc" attitude will be the death of the civilized world. we're so worried about hurting everyone's feeeeeeelings... we might as well roll over and surrender right now... because that's what we're doing.

    can you imagine the chaos if fundamentalist muslims got their way in the future? what's the point of having an ID card or a driver's lisence? sorry, but being able to identify someone by sight is a safety and security issue, whether you're talking about terrorism or just everyday life. how would you describe someone you were looking for? "oh yeah, she's that lady with... err,, the black hood."

    xenophobia is a primal human reaction to outsiders-- and has always existed as a survival mechanism, to some degree. to force people to not feel that way is often a threat to their very survival. and sometimes there is a d*mn good reason for it!!
     
  20. Floh

    Floh Former Member

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    Here's a take on it from Saira Khan:

    Part of her article:

    Some Muslim women say that it is their choice to wear it; I don’t agree. Why would any woman living in a tolerant country freely choose to wear such a restrictive garment? What these women are really saying is that they adopt the veil because they believe that they should have less freedom than men, and that if they did not wear the veil men would not be accountable for their uncontrollable urges — so women must cover-up so as not to tempt men. What kind of a message does that send to women?

    But a lot of women are not free to choose. Girls as young as three or four are wearing the hijab to school — that is not a freely made choice. Girls under 16 should certainly not have to wear it to school. And behind the closed doors of some Muslim houses, women are told to wear the hijab and the veil. These are the girls that are hidden away, they are not allowed to go to universities, they have little choice in who they marry, in many cases they are kept down by the threat of violence.

    So for women such as them it was absolutely right for Jack Straw to raise this issue. Nobody should feel threatened by his comments; after all, the debate about veils has been raging in the Islamic community for many years. To argue that non-Muslims have no right to discuss it merely reinforces the idea that Muslims are not part of a wider society. It also suggests, wrongly, that wearing the veil affects only Muslims. Non-Muslims have to deal with women wearing a veil, so why shouldn’t their feelings be taken into consideration? I would find it impossible to deal with any veiled woman because it goes so deeply against my own values and basic human instincts. How can you develop any kind of a social relationship with someone who has shut themselves away from the rest of the world?

    And if we can’t have a debate about the veil without a vocal minority of Muslims crying “Islamophobia”, how will we face other issues, such as domestic violence, forced marriages, sexual abuse and child abuse that are rife in the Muslim community? These are not uniquely Muslim problems but, unlike other communities, they are never openly debated. It is children and women who suffer as a result.

    Many moderate Muslim women in Britain will welcome Mr Straw’s comments. This is an opportunity for them to say: “I don’t wear the veil but I am a Muslim.” If I had been forced to wear a veil I would certainly not be writing this article — I would not have the friends I have, I would not have been able to run a marathon or become an aerobics teacher or set up a business.

    This is my message to British Muslim women — if you want your daughters to take advantage of all the opportunities that Britain has to offer, do not encourage them to wear the veil. We must unite against the radical Muslim men who would love women to be hidden, unseen and unheard.

    I was able to take advantage of what Britain has got to offer and I hope Mr Straw’s comments will help more Muslim women to do the same. But my argument with those Muslims who would only be happy in a Talebanised society, who turn their face against integration, is this: “If you don’t like living here and don’t want to integrate, then what the hell are you doing here? Why don’t you just go and live in an Islamic country?



    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2394934.html

    I'm not ducking out of this debate. i slept and now i'm off to work and i shall return! :)

    and what reb said! thumbs up.
     
  21. wannabesleuthkk

    wannabesleuthkk Hound Dog

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    wow, well put, even tho i sorta disagree, but thats ok.
    Yes some are twisted individuals with some backwoods medieval practices that i'd respond to with a polite 'kiss by rear". Besides the oppression of women, I especially don't like how some of perverted religions like to blow up innocents. can stand em. But i chose to try not to let it tick me off.
    If i can't understand her from behind the veil, i'll just talk to her in sign language as she how well she does.
    not really, that's mean.
    My grandma said, "if someone gets your goat, it's 'cause you've gotta goat to get."
    kk
     

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