Teen visiting Houston for dance classes taken into CPS custody

if i personally would not do what these people did, how is that relevant to whether or not anyone can question how the police handled the incident?

what if knowing only the facts we know now we are told that the police had refused to turn the child back over to the mother at all and had scheduled a fitness hearing, would that also be something a reasonable person can not question?
 
if i personally would not do what these people did, how is that relevant to whether or not anyone can question how the police handled the incident?

what if knowing only the facts we know now we are told that the police had refused to turn the child back over to the mother at all and had scheduled a fitness hearing, would that also be something a reasonable person can not question?

I think people can question whatever they want to. I can't speak for anyone else but I would hope that the police would questions 2 adults asleep at a gas station with a child in the car. If it were my child I would want them questioned as well and, honestly, if my kid was in that situation I would absolutely want them detained and my child returned to me. I am a little weirded that the mother didn't seem to have an issue with that portion of the story.

I guess my point is that, while people have the right to question anything they want to, I'm a little surprised that they are questioning this.
 
Houston has a lot of human trafficking. Police see two adult males, one teenage female, dozing off in the car at night-I personally can understand why they would be suspicious.

Suspicious is one thing. Handcuffing a teen girl and handing her over to CPS after speaking with all three, reading the notarized letter and WITHOUT even trying to contact her parents, is another.

Anyone can SAY anything (or MADE to say anything, in the case of the girl) and WRITE anything (the letter from the parent). Err on the side of caution and (possibly) rescue a young girl? I think they did the right thing.

How is handcuffing the supposed victim, putting her into state care and telling her mother she'd have to come there to get her, doing the right thing?

Why do you think that? Is it in an article or police report?

I have daughters. If I sent my kids to another city in the care of another adult and the police found them asleep in a vehicle, I would be very upset if police did not get everyone out if the vehicle and confirm their identities. Anyone can write a note. I would want a call from the cops.

I would also want to know if anyone appeared to be under the influence if drugs or alcohol. When people in the car out number the cop or cops who were there it is wise to handcuff everyone until it's sorted out so no one can run off or assault someone. MOO

I would be very upset if someone handcuffed my 13 year old daughter and then took her into state care. You didn't mention that last part. I'm sure the adults with the girl had driver's licenses. So their identities could have been confirmed immediately. A DMV check, a check for warrants or arrests would have told them a lot as well, as would a call to the mother. Much of that could have been accomplished right there at the scene. They certainly could have done a field sobriety check at the scene as well. So why did they handcuff her and take her to a shelter? There was no need to do that without confirming the story first. She could have just sat at the police station drinking a coke for a few hours. Further, according to the story, it appears she may have been kept handcuffed until she got to the shelter. What the heck?

Finally, I fail to see how the use of handcuffs was close to reasonable in this case. Handcuffing a teen and putting her in a patrol car more than likely constitutes an arrest under Texas law, as it lasted longer than the traffic stop itself and handcuffing a compliant 13 year old girl was unlikely to be necessary to secure the officers' safety:

http://www.legalupdateonline.com/4th/45

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...CyO83Tsbt_UaHGA&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU&cad=rja
The Difference Between An Arrest and Being Detained

The first factor most courts look at in determining whether there was an arrest is what the officer told you. An initial traffic stop where a police officer tells you that you have been pulled over for speeding is not an arrest. At that point, it’s just a detention. Ironically, even though you are not technically “free to leave," you are not considered under arrest because the time you are being detained is more brief than an arrest.

The second factor courts will review when evaluating a posible arrest is what the officer did to make you think you were under arrest. In the same example from above, if the police officer asks you for consent to search your car and finds cocaine, he may immediately place you in handcuffs. Even though he never states "you are under arrest," everything about his actions let you know that you were under arrest.

Generally, being placed in handcuffs is a factor in your favor. Some courts have held that this is not a requirement, however. If you tell the officer, for example, that you have a loaded gun in your car, he may tell you that you are not under arrest and place you in cuffs while he retrieves the loaded weapon due to officer safety concerns. Some courts say this is not an arrest, despite the handcuffs, because the officer made it clear that the detention was for a limited and brief purpose. http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_searches/police_arrest_procedure.htm
DE FACTO ARRESTS: A detention that does not
satisfy one or both of these requirements may be
invalidated in two ways. First, it will be deemed a de
facto arrest if the safety precautions were excessive,
if the detention was unduly prolonged, or if the
detainee was unnecessarily transported from the
scene. While de facto arrests are not unlawful per se,
they will be upheld only if the officers had probable
cause to arrest.21 As the court noted in United States
v. Shabazz, “A prolonged investigative detention
may be tantamount to a de facto arrest, a more
intrusive custodial state which must be based upon
probable cause rather than mere reasonable suspicion.”

The question arises: Is a [MIRANDA] waiver required if the
detainee is in handcuffs? [Meaning, did the detention rise to the level of an arrest?]

In most cases, the answer
is yes because handcuffing is much more closely
associated with an arrest than a detention.149 But
because the issue is whether a reasonable person
would have concluded that the handcuffing was
“tantamount to a formal arrest,”150 it is arguable
that a handcuffed detainee would not be “in custody”
if, (1) it was reasonably necessary to restrain
him, (2) officers told him that he was not under
arrest and that the handcuffing was merely a temporary
safety measure, and (3) there were no other
circumstances that reasonably indicated he was
under arrest.151
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=RK549W9UwOK3OtdP9RUq_w&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU

Nothing indicates any of these three were acting bizarrely, refusing to comply with officer requests, combative or stating there were weapons in the vehicle. Thus, the use of handcuffs was excessive, unreasonable and turned an investigatory detention into an illegal arrest.

We live in the United States of America. Our freedoms are protected by the Constitution. It's what our military men and women fight to guarantee. Handcuffing three people who were not doing anything to indicate a safety concern to the officers (and yeah, they did NOT out number the police: "Thompson, Hurd and another dance instructor had stopped at a gas station in Houston on Saturday night when they were surrounded by police cars.") is a total violation of our constitutional rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Like I said, ridiculous.
 
again, i havent heard anyone say that they dont think the police shouldnt have questioned the situation and investigated.

i am certainly not saying that.

i didnt see it stated anywhere that the mother had no questions about why they were asleep in the car, there is also very little detail about that part of the story. how long were they there for? what were the police told when called, were they reported as sleeping?

i have heard people say that because they would not have done things as the people in this story did, that then it is odd that anyone would have any question about the way police handled the incident.

makes no sense. one does not follow from the other.
 
Who nods off in a car at a gas station? Ppl drinking or doing drugs?
Nodding off rings my hinky meter. LE should not ask questions?

What if instead of being a couple hundred miles from home w. mother’s approval at dance event with overnight stay, this 13 yr old girl had been drugged and abducted by these two men? Or willingly ran away from home with them and had dummied up a document Mother's okay?

What do we know, from LE standpoint about actions of the 3 young people?
Absolutely nothing, that I’ve read or seen online, text or video.
I can imagine all sorts of factors LE may have observed and considered.

Did c-store/gas station employee call 911 to report car & occupants? Owner? Customer?
Did any one of the three come into store & ask directions to hotel?
Did any of them purchase inside store? Buy gas?
What time was it? (IIRC, Sat. after dance event). Was it 4pm? 8 pm? 11:00? 2:00am?

How long had car been there?
Could it have been more than a “a minute” that one of young ppl said?
Was driver able to show driver’s license? Auto ins? Auto registration?
Did LE smell alcohol on driver or in car? Was his speech slurred? Did LE give driver field sobriety tests? Did he pass?
When occupants rolled down window, did LE smell pot? See weapons? See other items suggestive of unlawful activity?

How old was he? How old was other dance teacher?
What about the others? ID available?
Article naming one man said he was also known as __ (another name). What did ID show?

Where was this c-store/gas station? Seedy part of Houston? Epicenter of drug dealing?
Did employee/customer calling 911 (if 911 call was made) say they saw signs of drug transaction?
Someone approaching car and items changing hands?
What did gas station video show, if anything?

What was attitude of the three toward LE?
Factual, respectful? Cursing? Raised voices?

Was the car tag from OK, which would seem to match their stmts? Or another state?
Was she able to show then a plane ticket, to match stmt?
What about evidence of registration for dance class, competition, (whatever) to match?
Was gas station close to dance event? Close to hotel?
They said they had a notarized letter from her mother. Did they immed. show to LE?

Was it 11 hrs from time LE made contact w. them, until released?

Racial profiling insinuations? This situation pegs my hinky meter, no matter what race any of them are.

Without LE report, I’m not drawing conclusions about truth and veracity of these young ppl and their stmts to media.

If a 13 y/o girl had been this situation without Mother's approval and some harm later came to her, and LE had not investigated and verified, the gen pub, media, and her parents would raise nine kinds of Cain about it afterward.

Sorry their weekend did not go as they planned.
 
If I were that mother, I would be grateful that police are looking out for young teen girls, hers in particular.

The cuffing might be scary but I think they did the right thing.

Why are three people dozing off in a gas station parking lot? Not one of the adults could stay awake enough to drive to the hotel? I find it odd that all three fell asleep.

They explain, in FB postings at the end of the article, that the dance teachers had driven 10 hours and then danced for 9 hours after picking up the gal from the airport. So, they were tired.

They also stated that they were told, by the police, that the specific reason for being treated that way was, "You're black and she's white...that's why we are doing this."
 
"Who nods off in a car at a gas station? Ppl drinking or doing drugs?
Nodding off rings my hinky meter. LE should not ask questions? "

for the third time in this thread - show me where anyone has said or suggested that the police should not have had any questions or initially investigated the situation.
 
They explain, in FB postings at the end of the article, that the dance teachers had driven 10 hours and then danced for 9 hours after picking up the gal from the airport. So, they were tired.

They also stated that they were told, by the police, that the specific reason for being treated that way was, "You're black and she's white...that's why we are doing this."

Police are not psychic to know that they drove for 10 hours and then danced for 9 hours and that's why they were sleeping in the car.
As for the statement attributed to police, I find it hard to believe police would say that.
 
gitana1
Snipped from your post 23:
"Nothing indicates any of these three were acting bizarrely, refusing to comply with officer requests, combative or stating there were weapons in the vehicle. Thus, the use of handcuffs was excessive, unreasonable and turned an investigatory detention into an illegal arrest."

You posted while I was writing my comments, posted a few min ago. I can't argue with your thoughts about cuffing, etc.

Maybe LE has released info I have not yet read, so maybe my Qs about what LE saw have been answered.

But based upon limited info, originating from only the 3 young ppl, I'm not ready to blast LE about inapprop action, re cuffing, CPS contact, and amt of time.
Maybe LE could not make contact w mom. Do we know, if they reached her immed'ly?
What do we know from LE?

JM2cts and I may be wrong.

As always, gitana1, thanks for bringing your legal knowledge and enlightenment to the thread.
 
“I was horrified,” Destiny Thompson told KHOU-TV. “She was with the people I wanted her to be with. She was with people I trusted. And now she was taken away from those people and in a shelter with people I didn’t know.”

At first, Thompson was told she'd have to come to Houston to get her daughter. After 11 hours, and repeated conversations with Houston officials, the teenager was finally freed into Hurd's custody.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/landry-thompson_n_4372573.html
 
"What do we know from LE?"

well, for starters we know that they did release her to the men's custody and filed no charges. seems reasonable to wonder what they found out in the 11 hours that followed that helped them make that decision.
 
"Who nods off in a car at a gas station? Ppl drinking or doing drugs?
Nodding off rings my hinky meter. LE should not ask questions? "

for the third time in this thread - show me where anyone has said or suggested that the police should not have had any questions or initially investigated the situation.

liljim

Aftr googling, I read a couple articles (MSM? maybe not) that said explicitly - LE questioned the 3, based on racial profiling.

I posted numerous things LE may have seen, which would seem to be bases for questioning, without regard to race.

My post responds more to those articles, than to posters here

My post should have been clearer. Sorry for any confusion. :seeya:
 
"You're black and she's white...that's why we are doing this."

interesting, i would like to hear more about this statement.

i certainly wouldnt immediately discount it just because of some image i have of the police.

i have actually heard many comments made like this by the police on video/audio when they dont know they are being recorded. so does it happen? absolutely.

do i think it is very prevalent? no, but it isnt exactly rare either.
 
Have I missed LE media release on this?

Any MSM articles w LE response to stmts the 3 young ppl gave to MSM?
 
"What do we know from LE?"

well, for starters we know that they did release her to the men's custody and filed no charges. seems reasonable to wonder what they found out in the 11 hours that followed that helped them make that decision.


liljim

So you are saying....[what]?
:seeya:
 
no comment from LE yet that i have seen, just saying that all we know is that whatever additional investigation they did it resulted in them having no charges to press and letting the 3 of them go without parental presence.

not implying anything, just stating that, and wondering exactly how it played out.
 
"Police then called Landry’s parents in Oklahoma, who were surprised by the officer’s tone. Destiny Thompson recalled the conversation.
“’Are you aware your daughter is with two black men?’ When I said ‘Yes, I’m aware of that,’ he called into questioning our parenting,” the mother said."

http://www.khou.com/news/local/HPD-...ing-with-Oklahoma-teen-dancers-234176921.html
 
I have no clue. I am not the kid's mother. I personally wouldn't be sending my teenage girl with adult males on any trips, but presumably that's just me.
Agreed, especially at age 13. If my daughter needs to go to a dance convention, I'm going with her!
 
Agreed, especially at age 13. If my daughter needs to go to a dance convention, I'm going with her!

I totally agree. I wouldn't want my kid alone on a plane, let alone traveling with male adults that aren't related to her. And it wouldn't matter how Christian or kid those adults are, either.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
194
Guests online
3,867
Total visitors
4,061

Forum statistics

Threads
592,252
Messages
17,966,221
Members
228,733
Latest member
jbks
Back
Top