The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-funeral.htm

    Link to items placed in JonBenet's coffin. Here is a snip concerning John and the scarf:

    Then it was John turn. He had recently purchased a beautiful silk scarf, and he tucked it around JonBenet as if surrounding her with a final blanket of love.

    This doesn't sound to me like it was placed around her neck at all. Maybe he just wanted to get rid of a piece of evidence?[SIZE=+0]
    [/SIZE]
     


  2. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    SunnyRN can you just clarify for me please. This article says that the victims overwhelmingly are males (86.6%), average age 13 years (around the onset of puberty). Most of the boys practice this on themselves. I assume you are thinking this game was played ON JBR by one of her siblings/parents? Wouldn't this be rather unusual??

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fainting_game[/ame]
     
  3. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    OTG, I'm not arguing with you! I promise! I honestly think your explanation is probably much more likely than a curling iron (still working on this theory and I realize it SOUNDS implausible but I'm preparing to share more about it.) I think you've done an absolutely outstanding job researching this. I am so impressed by your thought provoking and information filled posts. I appreciate your research so very much.

    What about the possiblity the mark was made through more than one process? (Possibly two or more contributing factors? Possibly at different times...before, and/or during, and/or after death) I remember seeing a photo of this mark where someone had circled an area and wrote there was a deeper area of abrasion at the lower edge. Can someone post that link if they have it handy? Thanks!
     
  4. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    Anyone with photo editing software can find the outline of a gun muzzle perfectly clearly by adjusting brightness/contrast and tone adjustment etc. Try it.
     
  5. passionflower

    passionflower Just 1 tip to find a killer

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    at the 23rd party. JBR was crying saying she didn't feel pretty............
    could she have gotten this mark at the party? or that day?
    Just a thought
     
  6. Steely

    Steely New Member

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    I don't have photo editing software, sure wish I did! What outline of a gun muzzle and where? On the cone shaped neck mark? I'm sorry, I'm confused.
     
  7. Steely

    Steely New Member

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  8. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    Yes, Ok, well here it is, don't mind the green colour, it's just I changed the 'hue' there is no trickery here, this is a clear outline that looks like where a gun muzzle was pressed hard into her skin.[​IMG]
     
  9. passionflower

    passionflower Just 1 tip to find a killer

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    under hanging I noticed: brownish, dry appearance....opposite the knot
     
  10. belimom

    belimom Speak the truth even if your voice shakes~M.Kuhn

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    Minus the darkened part, the outline in general looks similar to the outline of the so-called "footprint" or caribiner or whatever (which couldn't be a footprint if it's roughly 2.5" or so long (which isn't far off of the measurements for the mark on her neck):

    [​IMG]


    ETA: I do not necessarily believe they are from the same object, but I did notice similarities and wanted to put it out there for others to see.
     
  11. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    I think the measurements are in cm and it looks like about 13cm or ~6". Don't you think that the 'caribiner' shape is actually raised rather than indented?
     
  12. belimom

    belimom Speak the truth even if your voice shakes~M.Kuhn

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    I can't read the numbers so I'm not sure. I was going off of the post below. Anyone know which is the correct size - 6" or 2 1/2"? FYI, even at 6", it can't be a footprint of JBR. That would be more like a toddler or preschooler...


     
  13. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Nor do I think any of the other marks are from a stun gun. We’ll have to address them at another time. Since you are more familiar than I... any suggestions who should begin?

    How about the one large mark on her cheek? That one too baffles me. Maybe we can look at it next. Didn't someone say they saw a smiley face there or something? :)

    Uh, oh, Sunnie. Are you trying to trick me into thinking that I had already agreed with you on the soft nature of the strangulation material?

    I cannot exclude that as a possibility, but neither can I draw that as a conclusion. At this time anyway, I think the mark (which I will refer to as a “CTE” -- see above) is the result of the trauma to the underlying blood vessels, not necessarily the result of the type of material used to cause the strangulation.

    If on the other hand, it is because of the material, why would it occur in that same area in different strangulation victims? If it was because of the softer cloth crimping a portion of the skin, as you conjectured, it seems it could just as easily occur in other locations as well? Of course, possibly, it could be (just thinking out loud here, or “spitballing” as SuperDave calls it) that the “crimp” is more likely to occur in that one area because of the softness of the underlying structures of the neck, i.e. the area between the throat cartilages and the sternomastoid (sternocleidomastoideus in referenced drawings).

    I’m not convinced that we can conclude the type of material used simply by the nature of the mark, Sunnie. I still tend to think it could be caused by any type of material used in strangulation, and is simply the result of trauma to the underlying blood vessels and how the blood is trapped on the surface within that area identified as the carotid triangle.

    The sexual choking games, to me at this point, is more than I can surmise. First of all, I don’t get the point. I mean, the purpose of choking associated with sex is supposedly for heightened arousal. Arousal for whom? Usually it’s for the person being choked. Also, it is usually self-inflicted, or if it is inflicted second-person, it still is for the arousal of the person being choked -- not the person doing the choking (although in very rare instances, that may be the case).

    (WARNING: Discussion of an adult nature is about to happen. Children, and those who might easily be embarrassed or offended, should please leave the room.)

    Autoerotic asphyxia has been around since the 1600’s, when observers noticed that males executed at public hangings experienced noticeable erections, lasting in some instances past death. It was even found that sometimes, men had ejaculated after death. (Actually, this was because of the relaxation of muscles after death and the release of many different bodily fluids. Nevertheless, I’m reminded here of a line toward the end of the song “Start Me Up” by the Rolling Stones.) The logic was that if it was good for him, why not try it, and stop it just before you die? The problem with this, like many other paraphilias, is that it tends to progress to an uncontrollable point. Witness to that end: Albert Dekker in the 60’s, Stephen Milligan of the UK in 1994, and most recently David Carradine. I remember hearing about this when I was much younger when it was called “terminal sex” because the person came so close to death, and people who did this on a regular basis were called “gaspers”. It’s probably much more common than most people realize. But again, it is usually done for self-arousal by the person doing it.

    Anyway, the point of all that is that because of its nature, I have a hard time believing that JonBenet was being strangled repeatedly as part of some sort of “sex-game”.

    (Okay, end of adult content. The children can come back now.)

    As to the scarf that John placed in the coffin... That’s a bit odd. I don’t think it was a way of getting rid of evidence as someone had suggested (too many opportunities prior to that to have already done so, and why do it in front of everyone), and I don’t think it was a way to cover her neck wound (that should have already been done by the mortician). But I’m gonna have to just mark that one up as odd (not the first thing on my “odd list”, BTW).
    .
     
  14. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    How would the strangulation have covered up the triangular mark, belimom? Even in the pictures with the ligature still on it is plainly visible. As to somehow relating to events earlier in the evening, what would that be? I'm sorry, I just don't follow you there. Do you mean that it was the result of some prior abuse, or something that happened in the car while delivering presents?
    .
     
  15. belimom

    belimom Speak the truth even if your voice shakes~M.Kuhn

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    OTG, just thinking of possibilities here. Something I read elsewhere and thought I'd throw it out there. We're just discussing all possibilities from all angles. For one, it's also possible (probable?) that the strangulation was not the primary COD - that it was staged after the fact (or pretty close to it) of another grave injury. Just like everyone else, I'm looking at all angles. You're right: the cord in no way covers up the mark, but it sure got at least one theorist (and probably more) thinking that twisting the cord caused the mark - no the cord itself but whatever was used to twist. I don't think that, but see? It has at least some people thinking that the mark and cord/strangulation are related.

    FYI, I haven't sleuthed this case nearly as much as most of you on this thread. I've read alot but don't have it all catalogued away and it all blends together after awhile. However, it was this case that initially caused me to stumble across WS to begin with, and it is the one case that haunts me more than any other. I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. None of us do. I'm just thinking out loud. I respect everyone else's theories -- even IDI which I really don't believe -- and I'd like the same. Thank you.
     
  16. SunnieRN

    SunnieRN Active Member

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    Thank you MF. The statistics you posted are from the article. The year the 'game' was first recognized by the article is what I found interesting and still do, as we know forms of this type of sexual gratification have existed for much longer than 1995.


    Otg, I believe the second strangulation, which actually killed her, was to cover the first instance. As usual, just my opinion.
     
  17. MurriFlower

    MurriFlower Inactive

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    Thank you SunnieRN,

    Perhaps I didn't make my question clear. Are you suggesting that JBR performed the fainting game on herself or are you suggesting someone else performed it on her as a sexual strangulation game? If the former, is there any statistics on 6yo girls playing the fainting game? If the latter, what do you suggest would be the motivation for someone else to do this, as it is the stranglee that receives the 'buzz' in the sexual strangulation game, not the strangler? Have you formed an opinion on who may have done the strangling?
     
  18. SunnieRN

    SunnieRN Active Member

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    I have no idea 'if' the fainting game occurred in the R household, or, if it did, who was involved. Smaller children mimic older children. I have, for quite some time, believed Burke to be involved in JonBenet's molestation, whether in play, experimentation or abuse. I have no idea as to what actually occurred, however I can not rule out a possibility of this having occurred.

    The one thing I have learned, in life, is be prepared to be surprised. The R's were around many people, had a lot of access to the internet, video games and books. I don't find role playing, imitation at all far fetched.

    Do I think that if Burke, or Burke and a friend were involved that they would have purposely killed JonBenet? No, but stranger things have certainly happened.
     
  19. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure if you misunderstood me, or if I am now misunderstanding you, belimom. In no way was I being disrespectful toward anything you said. I was simply discussing with you and trying to understand what you were suggesting. That’s what we do here. None of us knows what happened. We throw ideas out, let people discuss them, ask questions, and give possible answers. All this to try and figure out what did happen.

    I’m not certain what happened anymore than anyone else. If you, or anyone else, can convince me that you are right about something and I’m wrong, I will absolutely concede the point and change my mind.

    Again, if you thought I was being anything other than straightforward with you, I sincerely apologize. You will get no disrespect from me about a sincere post.
    .
     
  20. belimom

    belimom Speak the truth even if your voice shakes~M.Kuhn

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    Okay - I must be misunderstanding the bold and italicized font, which to me is sarcasm or emphasis, just like all caps is yelling. I apologize if I read too much into your post. If that's just your style, I can accept that.
     

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