The “Undoing” of the Ramseys.

[Tadpole12]

Burglary interupted?

Presumption that the Ramsey's would have cash at home, the loan money for LHP and possibly vacation funds. IDI that falls within Ressler's suggested possibilities.

Known IDI or associate of someone within the Ramseys inner circle.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon2.htm

A retired FBI profiler, Robert Ressler, has told The Denver Post he is sure the child knew her killer and that the killer had to have come from the "immediate circle" of people surrounding the home. That circle would include her immediate family, neighbors, friends of the family, Ramsey houseworkers, adolescent boys who live in the neighborhood or members of her half-brother's nearby fraternity house. Ressler said he doesn't believe the killer intended to kill the child and feels great remorse about the death. The wiping is a further indication that the killer is not a serial killer or a "career" child molester or predator, Ressler said last night. "A more casual killer - a predator, a serial killer - wouldn't be into wiping the body," said Ressler. "It shows a psychological remorse or a concern. Usually a predator doesn't get into a 'cleanup.' "

 

[madeleine]

"undoing" and John Douglas

http://web.archive.org/web/20001027...olvers/douglas/1999/10/07/douglas1007_01.html

You have to look to see what the message is.

Sometimes you'll see a victim laid out nice and neat at a crime scene. The subject may go so far as to cover the corpse with a sheet or blanket.

There are various reasons for doing this. The killer may go into an explosive rage and then ask himself afterward, "What did I do?" He doesn't want to look at the crime he perpetrated, so he covers the victim.


When a parent kills a child

Or it could be that a close relationship existed between the killer and the victim. Let's say a parent kills a child and then buries the body. You may find that the child was carefully wrapped or the face covered to keep dirt from getting in the mouth. In essence, someone is caring for the child after death.

There's a word we use: "undoing." That's when someone tries to somehow lessen the damage after committing the crime, maybe by cleansing and bandaging the wounds. The killer may try softening the appearance of the crime by making the body's position restful and clasping the hands, almost like the victim is laid out. It's a way of symbolically erasing or reversing the crime, and it suggests remorse. Doing this gives the subject away. It's a personal crime -- strangers wouldn't likely do this.

-----------

hmmmmmmmm

another nice piece written by JD
how come did he forget about everything he wrote when being hired by the Ramseys

 

[eileenhawkeye]

All the kids I can think of that were killed by strangers had their bodies dumped in a ditch, field, anywhere outside, etc. It definitely didn't show remorse by the killer; they dumped their bodies like garbage. I believe that the R's did not dump JBR's body somewhere outside because there is no way they were going to have their child's body out in the elements since it could take months or years for LE to find her; just think of all the wilderness around Boulder.

 

[DeeDee249]

All the kids I can think of that were killed by strangers had their bodies dumped in a ditch, field, anywhere outside, etc. It definitely didn't show remorse by the killer; they dumped their bodies like garbage. I believe that the R's did not dump JBR's body somewhere outside because there is no way they were going to have their child's body out in the elements since it could take months or years for LE to find her; just think of all the wilderness around Boulder.

And if that happened, there would have been no open coffin with JB in her tiara and frilly pageant dress. No "Jacquie Kennedy" dramatic black chiffon veil.
I know Patsy would never have wanted JB exposed to the elements and animals. Dumping her outside was never an option for them, IMO.

 

[SunnieRN]

So if we are to believe BR that JB was awake when they arrived home....then it means she was awake when BR and PR dropped the gifts for the Stine'.sWhy didn't she go along?What happened in the car or before they got there?

It could be and most likely, she was asleep on the way home. My daughter had a way of falling asleep on the way home from my parents, but as soon as we stopped in the driveway, she was wide awake. It could also be that JonBenet was so tired that when she fell asleep she had an accident in the car, which woke her up.

 

[runsdeep]

let's take the RN,there were no foreign prints found on it.means if IDI he wrote it with gloves on.why bother?why handwritten then and not type it?can't be so easy to write a 3 page RN with your gloves on in a house you never been before with 4 people sleeping upstairs.why bother?why so long then?i can't even write a single sentence with my gloves on,i've tried,waste of time and it looks like i wrote it with my legs lol.

any mention of the pen used?

 

[runsdeep]

ETA

4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.

8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy

9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't

10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think

11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.

12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in

13 because that was his buddy, Doug.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy

16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,

17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated

18 whether we should go over there. But that's

19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home

20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would

21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.




he doesn't remember who went in and who stayed in the car.
GMAB
but he remembers that they debated whether they should go to the Fernies or not
yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

if JB being asleep was a lie why did it have to start with "she fall asleep in the car".why not she fell asleep right after we arrived home.
something stinks here.i don't buy their stories re the drive home.

JR totally vague with every answer

 

[DeeDee249]

any mention of the pen used?

The pen used was a Sharpie marker that belonged to the house, found placed right back in the cup where it belonged. The ink was tested from the pen and matched to the note.

I mean no offense, but this is one of the most well-known facts of the case. You will be able to follow along SO much better if you do some basic research on the case. A lot of questions would be answered that way. Try the JonBenet archives at http://www.acandyrose.com
Or try reading some of the recommended books, all now available in paperback. Your local library may also have them or be able to get them.

 

[runsdeep]

The pen used was a Sharpie marker that belonged to the house, found placed right back in the cup where it belonged. The ink was tested from the pen and matched to the note.

I mean no offense, but this is one of the most well-known facts of the case. You will be able to follow along SO much better if you do some basic research on the case. A lot of questions would be answered that way. Try the JonBenet archives at http://www.acandyrose.com
Or try reading some of the recommended books, all now available in paperback. Your local library may also have them or be able to get them.

careful about presuming that bloggers dont know what they are talking about or asking...

 

[DeeDee249]

careful about presuming that bloggers dont know what they are talking about or asking...

I never presume anything. But asking about the pen, as it was such a well-known and long-known fact in the case would lead me to make the comment I did.

 

[vlpate]

The pen used was a Sharpie marker that belonged to the house, found placed right back in the cup where it belonged. The ink was tested from the pen and matched to the note.

I mean no offense, but this is one of the most well-known facts of the case. You will be able to follow along SO much better if you do some basic research on the case. A lot of questions would be answered that way. Try the JonBenet archives at http://www.acandyrose.com
Or try reading some of the recommended books, all now available in paperback. Your local library may also have them or be able to get them.

DeeDee, I just want to say that I have been very impressed with your knowledge of the case and I don't think I've ever seen you post something that was not backed up by fact or evidence. I learn from your posts all the time, thank you.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, I just want to say that I have been very impressed with your knowledge of the case and I don't think I've ever seen you post something that was not backed up by fact or evidence. I learn from your posts all the time, thank you.

Thank you. I try to do my homework. I am not infallible, and I am sure I have not read absolutely everything on this case. I helps that I have a good memory- not photographic, but I do remember everything I read, though I might not remember where I read it.

 

[FairM]

I love the way you are quoting from John Douglas to support theories of undoing and staging to implicate the Ramseys but at the same time dismissing his report on the case because it doesn't support RDI ! amazing.

 

[Maikai]

Burglary interupted?

Presumption that the Ramsey's would have cash at home, the loan money for LHP and possibly vacation funds. IDI that falls within Ressler's suggested possibilities.

Known IDI or associate of someone within the Ramseys inner circle.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon2.htm

A retired FBI profiler, Robert Ressler, has told The Denver Post he is sure the child knew her killer and that the killer had to have come from the "immediate circle" of people surrounding the home. That circle would include her immediate family, neighbors, friends of the family, Ramsey houseworkers, adolescent boys who live in the neighborhood or members of her half-brother's nearby fraternity house. Ressler said he doesn't believe the killer intended to kill the child and feels great remorse about the death. The wiping is a further indication that the killer is not a serial killer or a "career" child molester or predator, Ressler said last night. "A more casual killer - a predator, a serial killer - wouldn't be into wiping the body," said Ressler. "It shows a psychological remorse or a concern. Usually a predator doesn't get into a 'cleanup.' "

I love Ressler....he was involved in a case in Europe---serial child killer who also sexually assaulted most of his victims---male and female. Ressler used linkage analysis to track him down.

This may be neither her nor there, but the room JBR was found in also contained a floor safe. I wonder if burglary could have been the original intent after the article appeared in the newspaper on JR's success. Someone that may have been in the house before may have seen the floor safe. "In Cold Blood" one of the killers met someone in prison that worked for the Cutters (sp?)....and told him about a safe the Cutter family had in the house---that's why they were targeted. The only reason I don't think JBR knew the killer is she wasn't blindfolded.

 

[DeeDee249]

Then why not try to open the floor safe? It wasn't even visible- her body was placed over it. There was no sign anyone had tried to open it. There allegedly had been paint cans placed there, and they would have been moved to make room for the body (the neighbor who heard the scream woke her husband, and he reported hearing "metal scraping concrete" just moments after she heard the scream).

Wouldn't matter if she wasn't blindfolded or whether she knew her killer. Her death had two parts- the head bash (which IMO was inflicted to silence her when she screamed- and which would have killed her anyway, and the ligature strangulation. After the head bash, she probably collapsed into unconsciousness/coma, and may have appeared dead. (if she was in shock or coma, respiration slows so much it may not be detected by an untrained person, and the body temp drops, too- the body may feel cool even though the person is still alive).
She was never going to be able to identify her killer- that ship sailed with the head bash.

 

[UKGuy]

ETA

4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.

8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy

9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't

10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think

11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.

12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in

13 because that was his buddy, Doug.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy

16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,

17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated

18 whether we should go over there. But that's

19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home

20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would

21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.




he doesn't remember who went in and who stayed in the car.
GMAB
but he remembers that they debated whether they should go to the Fernies or not
yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

if JB being asleep was a lie why did it have to start with "she fall asleep in the car".why not she fell asleep right after we arrived home.
something stinks here.i don't buy their stories re the drive home.

so glad I've found this
so SS can't confirm JB was alive

"While driving home, Patsy stopped at the houses of friends to drop off gifts a gift basket for Susan Stine and perfume for Roxanna Walker. Burke accompanied her to the door of the Stine's residence, but John and JonBenet remained in the car as JonBenet had fallen asleep. Patsy also had brought along a gift basket for John and Barbara Fernie, but because it was getting late and JonBenet was already asleep, Patsy decided to deliver this last gift some other time. The family arrived home at 9:00 p.m."

madeleine,
Good points, particularly since SS can verify JonBenet never entered the house, then again what answer might we expect, was this point at which collusion began, and a pick my words carefully?

I wonder if all the Stines were questioned on this aspect e.g. no JonBenet?


I could accept that JonBenet was asleep in the car, then awoke on returning to the house, as Burke stated she walked into the house, but definitely not straight to bed as she patently snacked on some pineapple!


I suspect there is more to JonBenet being left in the car, since a quick drive to the Fernie's and simply handing the gifts over with apologies for not staying since they had to catch a plane early the next day would have sufficed.

So is that two gifts that never arrived, Jenny's and the Fernie's all linked indirectly to JonBenet, mmm?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I love the way you are quoting from John Douglas to support theories of undoing and staging to implicate the Ramseys but at the same time dismissing his report on the case because it doesn't support RDI ! amazing.

FairM,
Do you not find it similarly amazing that there is no evidence, not one scintilla, linking anyone outside of the Ramsey house to the death of JonBenet?

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene. The primary crime-scene is located elsewhere in the house. Thats the importance of the wine-cellar it prevents people from assuming JonBenet was sexually assaulted at another location in the house.

What is interpreted as Undoing may simply be staging. The size-12's are an illustration of this!


.

 

[FairM]

I love Ressler....he was involved in a case in Europe---serial child killer who also sexually assaulted most of his victims---male and female. Ressler used linkage analysis to track him down.

This may be neither her nor there, but the room JBR was found in also contained a floor safe. I wonder if burglary could have been the original intent after the article appeared in the newspaper on JR's success. Someone that may have been in the house before may have seen the floor safe. "In Cold Blood" one of the killers met someone in prison that worked for the Cutters (sp?)....and told him about a safe the Cutter family had in the house---that's why they were targeted. The only reason I don't think JBR knew the killer is she wasn't blindfolded.

You make some very good points here. I had never considered the safe issue before , but you are right it could well have been a factor. I get your point about the blind fold , if she was being moved from her bedroom and knew the killer it would have made sense to blind fold her as well as gagging her with the tape.

 

[FairM]

FairM,
Do you not find it similarly amazing that there is no evidence, not one scintilla, linking anyone outside of the Ramsey house to the death of JonBenet?

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene. The primary crime-scene is located elsewhere in the house. Thats the importance of the wine-cellar it prevents people from assuming JonBenet was sexually assaulted at another location in the house.

What is interpreted as Undoing may simply be staging. The size-12's are an illustration of this!


.

Hi UKGuy,

Well I believe that the DNA which is of course lodged in Codis ( apparently they lodge DNA in Codis for a reason) is evidence of an intruder.

I happen to believe the Ramseys when they said that they had nothing to do with their daughter's death and that therefore leaves an intruder, that person may not have been a stranger to JonBenet. I also think that the RN is evidence of an intruder, I do not accept that there is conslusive evidence that Patsy wrote that note.

Further evidence is the fact that the tape and cord has not been sourced to the house so must have come from outside by an intruder.

We do not know for sure she was redressed in the size 12s , she could have had those on all day.

I believe the wiping down was done to remove evidence not to undo the crime. I believe the blanket was picked up with JonBenet when she was removed from her bed,

why do you think the size 12s are staging as opposed to undoing? what does dressing her in size 12 stage?

 

[UKGuy]

Hi UKGuy,

Well I believe that the DNA which is of course lodged in Codis ( apparently they lodge DNA in Codis for a reason) is evidence of an intruder.

I happen to believe the Ramseys when they said that they had nothing to do with their daughter's death and that therefore leaves an intruder, that person may not have been a stranger to JonBenet. I also think that the RN is evidence of an intruder, I do not accept that there is conslusive evidence that Patsy wrote that note.

Further evidence is the fact that the tape and cord has not been sourced to the house so must have come from outside by an intruder.

We do not know for sure she was redressed in the size 12s , she could have had those on all day.

I believe the wiping down was done to remove evidence not to undo the crime. I believe the blanket was picked up with JonBenet when she was removed from her bed,

why do you think the size 12s are staging as opposed to undoing? what does dressing her in size 12 stage?

FairM,

Well I believe that the DNA which is of course lodged in Codis ( apparently they lodge DNA in Codis for a reason) is evidence of an intruder.

Now , pray, please tell us what the reason is, they lodge DNA in Codis?

You may believe that the touch-dna is evidence of an intruder, but your belief is not fact, is it? Nobody has yet matched the touch-dna with anyone outside of the Ramsey household.

The touch-dna may have arrived on JonBenet during the autopsy procedure, have you evidence to rule this out?

I happen to believe the Ramseys when they said that they had nothing to do with their daughter's death and that therefore leaves an intruder,

Sure, but your belief is not fact. The Ramsey's may be lying, in fact Patsy Ramsey did indeed lie during her Atlanta 2000 interview.

I also think that the RN is evidence of an intruder, I do not accept that there is conslusive evidence that Patsy wrote that note.

Well all the items you consider to be evidence of an intruder can have alternative explanations. Using a staged item, e.g. the Ransom Note, to draw conclusions is very unsafe.

Further evidence is the fact that the tape and cord has not been sourced to the house so must have come from outside by an intruder.

Not so. Is the same dna that was found on JonBenet present on any of these unsourced items? The tape and the cord may have been artifacts then currently available, among items long discarded in the basement. You cannot demonstrate otherwise, and that is why you cannot conclude an intruder brought them in. Disregarding, of course, the Ramsey forensic evidence found on them!

We do not know for sure she was redressed in the size 12s , she could have had those on all day.

How could she have had them on all day, if there were no size-12's available in the house? Anyway BPD can test the black velvet pants, JonBenet wore to the White's, for fiber transfer from the size-12's!

I believe the wiping down was done to remove evidence not to undo the crime.

I agree 100%.

I believe the blanket was picked up with JonBenet when she was removed from her bed,

Maybe, it may also have originated in the basement?

why do you think the size 12s are staging as opposed to undoing? what does dressing her in size 12 stage?

IMO redressing JonBenet in her size-6 underwear, any day of the week, would represent Undoing. Which is a form of psychological normalization.

what does dressing her in size 12 stage?

That is in the mind of the stager, and is open to interpretation. Remember JonBenet had bathroom drawer full of perfectly suitable size-6 underwear.

So the size-12's are there to conform to the Ramsey's version of events, since she has just been abducted from her bed, and apparently dumped in the wine-cellar e.g. she was wiped down.

The fact that the size-12's have a Wednesday feature may be deliberate so to suggest she deceased on the Wednesday or if someone just pulled down JonBenet's longjohns and saw only the Wednesday feature they might think these must be the same pair she wore on Wednesday, just as you claim.

Since the size-12's have been staged they patently do not represent Undoing and calls into question any other items discovered at the crime-scene, e.g. pink barbie nightgown, barbie doll. Just what was an intruder doing with these items?

The wine-cellar represents a crime-scene not completed!



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