the "accident" victim

Discussion in 'Israel Keyes' started by Backwoods, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    from: http://www.fbi.gov/portland/press-r...istance-in-case-of-serial-killer-israel-keyes

    While the regional threads work very well, I feel, in looking for possible victims of IK, I have been thinking a lot the past few days about the "one" victim (other than Samantha) whose body, IK told the investigative team, was recovered -- the one he did something to or moved to a location that would make the death seem accidental. The information we have is that, indeed, the death was ruled accidental.

    I thought it might be helpful to have a thread dedicated to seeing if we can identify who that victim may have been -- since we don't really have any particular geographical clue (other than the timeline).

    I think WS missing/then found deceased threads that reflect "accidental" deaths would be a great place to start -- but we may need to branch out, because we don't know if the person was ever reported missing or if, perhaps, he/she was reported missing but never made it to WS threads.

    I'm thinking we can just gather some "possibles" here in this thread -- then, for those that match up well with the timeline and such and seem very possible, we can move individual cases to the appropriate geographical region thread. (And it might be helpful, too, if there are already "accident" victims mentioned in those threads -- I can't remember for sure if there are -- that we re-list them here as well.)

    One of the places IK mentioned that he hunted victims was around boating areas. To me, that would seem a likely type of environment in which to stage an "accident" appearance. So I'm thinking that's where I will start looking -- around boating areas -- for deaths ruled drownings, one-person boat accidents, and other water-related deaths that seem unusual or mysterious. (I realize, too, that in these kinds of cases, the victim might not have been taken in the boating area, but only moved there after death.)

    That's just one idea, though, and I hope posters will come up with others regarding what kinds of "accidental" death might actually have been murder. (One that comes to mind for me is "fire" -- so I guess there might be some overlap with the arson thread, possibly.)
     
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  3. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Gonna borrow bessie's put-the-name-in-the-post-title message for this thread, too, because it makes sense to do that here as well:


    :seeya:When posting about a particular case, PLEASE :please: type the victims' names in the title of your post.

    :tyou:
     
  4. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Still working on trying to collate some reasonable possibilities for the "accident" victim, but as I do, have had a few more thoughts on this I wanted to post.

    One -- it seems IK did a lot of different kinds of body disposal. Burying, dismembering, Drano, sinking in a deep lake, and combos of these. I wonder if he planned all this out ahead of time -- thinking probably "yes" -- and if he did, was it mainly to "change things up" to avoid a pattern that might connect his murders if bodies were discovered, or was it mostly just "part of the experience" for him, an added "thrill" to try all these different methods?

    Whatever the answer there, it is interesting that he staged the one victim to appear to have died by accident. Planned, or spur-of-the-moment because the situation presented that as a viable option?

    Also, we're told IK "claimed" never to have shot any victim other than Bill Currier -- that strangulation was his main method. He talked about killing one victim by hitting the victim in the head with something in an effort at control. Could that victim be a likely one to stage as an "accident"? Car accident maybe, or...what else?

    Off the top of my head, beyond maybe covering up with arson, it's hard for me to think how he could have staged to make the death of any victim who died by strangulation look like an accident. Anybody think of any possibilities there?
     
  5. Iwatchingeye

    Iwatchingeye Member

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    When I first heard about the victim deemed an accident, the first thing that came to mind was a fall. Since he frequented trails and national forest it could be possible that one victim was trown over a cliff to appear they had fallen. This one has nagged at me because I have read or seen something in the past that fits this but for the life of me I can't figure out how to find it now.
     
  6. prd2bokie

    prd2bokie New Member

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    Train accident, that would be impossible to find the real cause of death.
     
  7. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Andrew Cook, 22..
    A long shot, but Who would push someone off a 125' Bridge?

    http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/apr/08/body-found-may-be-coffee-stand-owners/
    (aprox 400 miles from Colville, WA)
    April 8, 1996 in Nation/World
    Body Found May Be Coffee Stand Owner’s

    Cook disappeared Friday from his Tukwila espresso stand, and investigators feared he had been abducted during a robbery.

    A couple of hours after he had been reported missing, Cook’s car was found on fire
    behind a store in nearby Renton.

    Wills said it couldn’t immediately be determined how the man found under the bridge had died. It appeared he had been pushed and fell 125 feet to the ground, Wills said.
     
  8. Lucky 1

    Lucky 1 not all those who wander are lost....

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    IMO:
    http://bangordailynews.com/2012/01/...ville-remains-mystery-after-more-than-a-year/

    Discovery of decomposed body in Stacyville remains mystery after more than a year

    https://identifyus.org/en/cases/full_report/8812

    https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=...Orw-yllbcVV2s6kTDHYTPV5sOLB8g&mra=ls&t=m&z=10

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9801059&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Israel Keyes Timelines *NO DISCUSSION*[/ame]

     
  9. cynar

    cynar New Member

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    The guy he hit in the head in Washington State was the male half of a couple, both of whom were buried, according to the Nov 29 interview.

    Therefore, for the "accident victim," and assuming Keyes did strangle all other victims, we would be looking for an "accident" that successfully disguises signs of strangulation.

    To me, that would mean something like a broken neck that ends up being attributed to a fall, or such advanced decomposition at the time the body is found that soft tissue and small bones have disappeared or been dispersed by scavenging. I also get the sense this will be in deep woods, remote, so that investigators would assume a fall or hypothermia following someone getting lost while hiking or on a fishing trip.

    And for some reason I keep thinking the accident victim is a solo male, as opposed to a woman. I am not sure why. Perhaps because I imagine a woman will have been raped and tortured prior to being killed, and that the signs would have been much more difficult to disguise as an accident.

    The Maine guy, above, is a possibility, but I wonder why investigators so confidently stated "no signs of foul play." Was the autopsy truly able to rule out strangulation?

    We only have the "accident victim" scenario second-hand; in other words, we do not have an original recording or transcript of Keyes' account, only law-enforcement-as-filtered-through-media. I am always slightly leery of those filters.

    Finally, my sense is that this murder is more likely to be near the *beginning* of Keyes' career than later. That's because there does seem to be a progressive escalation of elements, from completely invisible backwoods encounters to more deliberate kidnappings/carjackings. When I imagine the accident victim scenario, it feels to me like an earlier, random backwoods encounter in the 2000-2006 range.

    all purely my feeling, of course.
     
  10. Lucky 1

    Lucky 1 not all those who wander are lost....

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    http://bangordailynews.com/2011/01/03/news/body-in-stacyville-yet-to-be-identified/

    Body in Stacyville yet to be identified

    By Jen Lynds, BDN Staff

    Posted Jan. 03, 2011, at 7:33 p.m.
    Last modified Feb. 05, 2011, at 7:05 p.m.

    The body was too decomposed to identify. They still haven't identified him. I feel that he could be Dennis Kunkel from Ohio and I do feel IK was responsible for it. I called all the listed numbers for the UID and Kunkel and got exactly :banghead:

    http://www.ohio.com/news/family-baffled-by-medina-man-s-disappearance-1.193932
    Family baffled by Medina man's disappearance

    By Gina Mace
    Published: June 23, 2010 - 06:10 PM | Updated: June 18, 2011 - 10:46 AM

    5/19 - 7/18, 2010: FBI Timeline - Midwest & Western US

    And one other fact about the UID: his hand/s were missing.

    https://identifyus.org/en/cases/full_report/8812

     
  11. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Keyes say the accident victim was a male with a blow to the head? I'll have to pull out my notes, but can't do it right now. Painful knee injury. :(
     
  12. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    I'm having the same problem with the account of a strange boating death that I read about somewhere, sometime -- not sure if it was on WS or elsewhere; haven't been able to find it again yet.
     
  13. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Yes, you are right about IK saying the person he hit in the head was the male of the Washington couple. (And didn't he also strike Bill Currier in the head before shooting him?) I had forgotten that he specifically said he buried them...

    I have the same feeling as you that the "accident" victim was likely a lone male. Not sure, of course.
     
  14. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    No, I think, now that cynar mentioned it, that the victim he said he struck in the head was the male of a man/woman couple, whose bodies have never been recovered.

    I think the "accident" victim is someone else -- and the body was recovered, how IK told things, anyhow.
     
  15. jkloc420

    jkloc420 New Member

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  16. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Yes, she could fit the timeline, depending on how one defines "Western U.S." (and I think the label has been somewhat flexible in IK's case):


    <snipped from GGE's post at the beginning of the Timeline thread>
    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9801059&postcount=1"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Israel Keyes Timelines *NO DISCUSSION*[/ame]



    More coverage:

    Article from when the initial search was called off:
    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/weather_stymies_air_support_bu.html


    Another after she was found:


    more at: http://www.kgw.com/news/Lost-Hikers-Father-Continues-to-Search-87411072.html


    I wonder what the results of the autopsy were? (So far, have not found coverage.)



    Interesting about the trailhead -- one of the other links says she texted a friend from there, saying she was about to take a short hike. IK mentioned trailheads as one of his "hunting" spots.


    Some of the stories show Katherine with her beautiful dog -- but I have not so far seen mention that the dog was with her when she was disappeared.


    RIP Katherine.


    ETA: Hmmm -- possibly there turned out not to be a full autopsy done, after all?

    more at: http://www.nwcn.com/home/Medical-examiner-to-determine-how-Gorge-hiker-died-87659512.html
     
  17. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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  18. jkloc420

    jkloc420 New Member

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    Remember keys said he made it look like an accident. There would be no need to check for foul play. Plus it seems from the stories and websleuths posters weren't sure she actually fell. I sent it over to the Fbi to check out. Were see what they say.
     
  19. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Oh, I AGREE with you that this is a good case to check, glad you sent it in!

    Yes, there were several things that stood out in the original WS thread that had made posters very suspicious -- her dog not being with her (I found that out, as I read on) when she normally took the dog hiking; cell phone left in car; credit card receipt found far from body-recovery site; and the feeling that this hike, at this time of day, etc., was not one an experienced hiker like Katherine would have chosen.

    It looks like many had a somewhat specific POI in mind but then when her body was found on the mountain (many thought she would not be there) and coroner said it was an accident, it was settled, in the minds of many. IK was not on anybody's radar at the time, of course.

    I would like to find out IF there was a full autopsy -- found coverage going back and forth: yes, there will be -- wait, no there won't -- wait, it's changed again ... but never a final answer. I hope maybe there was one. I read somewhere that K.'s parents planned to have her cremated; if they did, it would be too late now. So much could have been covered up by a staged fall!

    For those who haven't read the Missing thread: The day she disappeared was her 24th birthday!
     
  20. jkloc420

    jkloc420 New Member

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    It would be interesting if they circulating a pic of IR if anyone would say hey that guy looks familiar. I'll let you know what the FBI says if I get a response back.
     
  21. SMK

    SMK New Member

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    I still think of Shantina Smiley and her son, Azriel Carver (the 8 yr old son appeared to have drowned, and Shantina was never found)/
     

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