The actual vs. desired outcome

[Holdontoyourhat]

You need to acquaint yourself to the facts of this case if you dont know what painting slings. Patsy was into painting and she would make slings for transporting those paintings out of the very materialls purchased at McGuckins . The very materials that also could make a garrote along with the broken paint brush and tape Jon Benets already silenced screams.

Facts? Fact is there was no sling made from cord or tape anywhere. Where do you get this stuff?

 

[JMO8778]

Aunt Pam Then it was on to Mickey D's to get some courtesy refresments not that Aunt Pam was courteous, dont get confused . How to describe Aunt Pams behavior....braggin how shed made her first million and could not seem to spring for her own McDonalds and screaming to get those gloves off her hands. I swear Id of gone through all that contraband evidence that walked out of that house and exchanged the rubber gloves for handcuffs and there would I am sure have been enough to make the charges stick. That whole deal would have come tumbling down like a house of cards. That is my opinion.

good point ! I feel sry for the guy that had to deal w. her,but I think I'd have slammed on the brakes right then and there at her hissy fit..'something ain't right' would have clicked in my head,and I'd have gone through ALL of it ! (if I hadn't b/f!)

 

[JMO8778]

You need to acquaint yourself to the facts of this case if you dont know what painting slings. Patsy was into painting and she would make slings for transporting those paintings out of the very materialls purchased at McGuckins . The very materials that also could make a garrote along with the broken paint brush and tape Jon Benets already silenced screams.

yes and I think the rope was in a small plastic package on top of the painting items in the paint tote.it was likely there w. the rest of the items to be used for her paintings.when looking for items to do the staging,it was all right there.the package was disposed of,after being hidden,just as the missing underwear was, (that suddenly turned up).:waitasec:
I suspect the rope was all used up,if not,then the rest of it walked out of the house just like the rest of the evidence did.I think it likely the tape was taken off something else,there was no roll of it to begin with.(I think it appeared to be used b/f it was placed on JB?)
didn't Pam carry out a painting? correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Toltec]

What about murder for thrill/sex?

This is where the perp set out to kill JBR for the thrill or the sex of it. That again seems like too much risk to take for a pedophile. Usually they don't work in the house where the parents are. I'd think if it were a murder for the thrill/sex, the perp would've taken JBR to another location.

Remember Danielle Van Damm? That sick guy David Westerfield snuck in through the unlocked garage door, went upstairs, knocked Danielle out with one punch, picked her up, went out through the french doors and walked to his home. There he did the most indispicable things to that poor baby. He than placed her in his RV, took her to the beach where he continued to do his sick thing. He than dumped her nude body by the side of the road where the animals ate parts of her body.

 

[BOESP]

Facts? Fact is there was no sling made from cord or tape anywhere. Where do you get this stuff?

Holdon, Patsy painted so she more than likely used duct tape and cord. You don't make up a sling in advance. You make and use them as needed. You also use tape for mountings. You can rephrase your question till the cows come home and it won't change the fact that duct tape and cord are almost always in a painter's kit. Patsy took classes. Her instructor is going to tell her to get the duct tape and cord. Since no fancy attache paint carriers or envelopes were noted in the home, we can assume she used the standard sling that almost all beginners are taught to use.

 

[sandraladeda]

Holdon, Patsy painted so she more than likely used duct tape and cord. You don't make up a sling in advance. You make and use them as needed. You also use tape for mountings. You can rephrase your question till the cows come home and it won't change the fact that duct tape and cord are almost always in a painter's kit. Patsy took classes. Her instructor is going to tell her to get the duct tape and cord. Since no fancy attache paint carriers or envelopes were noted in the home, we can assume she used the standard sling that almost all beginners are taught to use.

Just to add to this, not only do you not make a sling in advance, when you are finished using the sling, you chuck it. It is used to transport. After transporting takes place, the tape and cord is removed and tossed.

My mother is an artist and I grew up my whole life seeing her do this.

HOTYH, were you thinking PR would have a stockpile of paintings in slings sitting around her house, the absense of which makes it impossible she ever used slings?

imo

 

[DeeDee249]

Holdon- remember these items were (allegedly) bought a few days before the murder. There may not have been a murder planned, but there was a trip planned- and it being Christmas, PR may have intended to give some of her paintings as gifts. So the tape and cord were bought so she could make the slings AT THE LAST MINUTE as she decided which paintings to bring. As was stated, they are not something you make in advance, you have to make the sling as you are taping the rolled paper. And the painting has to be completely dry when you roll it. Like the garotte which was made right on JBR's neck, the sling is made right on the painting.
PR was very narcissistic- she thought of herself as a beauty queen, but also as quite the artist. It is very in keeping with PRs personality to give her paintings as Christmas gifts.

 

[DeeDee249]

sure,but by intentional,I don't necessarily think it means planned..no one planned to kill her beforehand that night..however,what if a split second decision was made to do away with her? would that still be an accident? what if it was pondered for more that a split second..over a period of a few minutes,perhaps? (second degree murder,I believe).But then,(either in ST's book,or PMPT)...a description of everyone coming out of the meeting of evidence leaves some saying, 'looks like we got it,Murder One'.

I think any time you WANT to kill someone, even if it is a split-second decision, it's murder. Not Murder 1- but a crime of passion, as it's called.

well-said,only thing I would add is that it's common to blame the victim,even if it's a child.the killer rationalizes that he/she couldn't be all that bad of a person,so it must be (at least in part) the victim's fault.
SD mentioned the 'Snow White' syndrome,and I wonder about that,too.I think it could be plausible.If JR was abusing 'Mega-JonBenet',then Patsy wasn't the fairest one of them all anymore,(even if it was of her own creation),and I think it very likely she couldn't handle that.

Yes, this could very well have played a part in PR's emotional state as well. Especially if she suspected or knew that her husband was replacing her as an object of sexual desire with her beautiful daughter. PR knew her days were numbered. She was in remission, but ovarian cancer...well, you know. PR could have "sacrificed" JBR to keep her from years of sexual abuse by her father.
I believe both parents covered up this crime. But as an RDI, I can't decide for sure if PR, JR, or both killed her. But if PR made the "sacrifice"- it is in keeping both with her misguided religious beliefs and also explains why JR would help his wife cover up the crime- and why to this day he can't reveal anything for fear of exposing the secret of his abuse of his daughter.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So the tape and cord were bought so she could make the slings AT THE LAST MINUTE as she decided which paintings to bring.

You can't just make stuff up. The tape and cord were NOT bought, there were NO slings.

The tape and cord present a problem for accidental death, because they require evidence of another use, or of scraps laying around, or packaging. There was no effort to hide the ransom note pen or paper, the broken paintbrush pieces. There wouldn't have been a selective effort to ignore pineapple and broken paintbrush while smuggling tape and cord.

There was no accident. The tape and cord were brought in the house to either assault or murder JBR. IMO by an intruder.

 

[DeeDee249]

Whose making it up? Just as I can't PROVE PR bought the tape and cord (though it is highly probable) you can't PROVE she didn't.
None of us knows for sure what happened. Every single post is OPINION. And we all have a right to one.
The sling is an explanation for why the tape and cord were bought in the first place. I don't think anyone thinks PR decided to go out and buy equpiment to garrotte her daughter to death! They were bought for an innocent purpose. While the sling can't be proven, it is a reasonable explanation for why she would buy the tape and cord.
Getting too close to the truth?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Even if PR bought the tape and cord to make slings, that wouldn't incriminate the R's because the intruder could've simply improvised those like he did the paintbrush. The R's staged intruder crime scene could've just incorporated the roll remnants, they wouldn't need to smuggle anything.

However, your claim that PR bought cord and tape to make slings isn't supported in evidence at all. The idea that PR ever bought cord and tape to make slings isn't supported either.

If this is as common a practice for artists as you say it is, why can't I find anything on google?

 

[DeeDee249]

Who knows? This is a homemade device. If you google slings, I doubt it would show up. I know I learned in art school. PR took art classes. That's likely how she learned too. If an innocent reason is to be considered for the purchase of the tape and cord by PR, it is as likely as any. Maybe more so.
Just let go of it. It's 10 years later. McGuckin's receipts from 1996 don't show the item and that's that. IDIs believe the tape and cord came in and went out with the intruder. So be it. Many RDI's think the Rs bought the tape and cord, and it is supported by the price and department key being identical to those items sold in the store. End of story. Does is PROVE it? No. But it doesn't DISPROVE it. We won't be convinced and neither will you. It's unproductive to go on about this particular matter, and that is all I have to say about it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If there was an accident then parents would have to improvise using items found in the house, right? These items have to have other legitimate uses. None were found. No remnants of the same tape or cord were found either. This makes it look like the tape and cord were exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR. The explanation that new tape and cord were just not used yet AND remnants smuggled out, seems too convenient.

The tape and cord APPEAR TO BE exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR, so the tape and cord ARE THEREFORE PROBABLY brought there for the purpose of assault or murder.

Original plot could be assault, sexual assault, murder, or kidnap. Probably not rage, though because it appears to have been planned.

 

[BOESP]

If there was an accident then parents would have to improvise using items found in the house, right? These items have to have other legitimate uses. None were found. No remnants of the same tape or cord were found either. This makes it look like the tape and cord were exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR. The explanation that new tape and cord were just not used yet AND remnants smuggled out, seems too convenient.

The tape and cord APPEAR TO BE exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR, so the tape and cord ARE THEREFORE PROBABLY brought there for the purpose of assault or murder.

Original plot could be assault, sexual assault, murder, or kidnap. Probably not rage, though because it appears to have been planned.

If the two purchases at the local hardware store were tape and cord, and there is a strong suggestion they were based on what the detectives said, it doesn't mean much that any remainders weren't found. Patsy or John could have easily removed both items just as you say an Intruder would. Patsy's jacket fibers were found on the underside of the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth and intertwined in the cord around her neck. The ifs and/or's don't mean much but those fibers aren't going away and their location is incriminating.

It doesn't seem odd that matching cord or tape was not found used elsewhere in the Ramsey home if they were bought only a short while before JonBenet's death, particularly if the items were bought for art use.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If the two purchases at the local hardware store were tape and cord, and there is a strong suggestion they were based on what the detectives said, it doesn't mean much that any remainders weren't found. Patsy or John could have easily have removed both items just as you say an Intruder would. Patsy's jacket fibers were found on the underside of the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth and intertwined in the cord around her neck. The ifs and/or's don't mean much but those fibers aren't going away and their location is incriminating.

It doesn't seem odd that matching cord or tape was not found used elsewhere in the Ramsey home if they were bought only a short while before JonBenet's death, particularly if the items were bought for art use.

I'm not saying its odd that cord or tape was not found. I'm saying that because neither cord nor tape was found except on JBR, it GIVES THE APPEARANCE that the cord and tape were exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR.

Based on that, the murder PROBABLY wasn't an accident. The cord and tape PROBABLY were brought by somebody exclulsively for the purpose of assault and murder.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Realistically, and with the help of some here, it seems the list dropped to about three 'more likely' original plot possibilities.

1. Murder for obfuscation of abuse.
2. Sexual assault.
3. Kidnap for slave.

Each has the cord and tape brought there exclusively for criminal purposes.

Less likely original plots seem to leave the perp with no reason to hang around the house, and instead to leave with JBR quickly.

 

[BOESP]

I'm not saying its odd that cord or tape was not found. I'm saying that because neither cord nor tape was found except on JBR, it GIVES THE APPEARANCE that the cord and tape were exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR.

Based on that, the murder PROBABLY wasn't an accident. The cord and tape PROBABLY were brought by somebody exclulsively for the purpose of assault and murder.

I understand what you are saying since JonBenet's body is the only place the tape and cord were found. However, some weight should be given to the detectives' deduction that a roll of tape and cord were bought at the hardware store and it is a given that such tape and cord are used by artist's. I'm sorry you can't find anything about it on the Internet because it is a useful piece of information in this case to know that Patsy was an artist who, in particular, painted with oils and would have had a need for tape and cord. To me, the fact that not just one but two staple items were not found in Patsy's kit is interesting.

 

[BOESP]

Realistically, and with the help of some here, it seems the list dropped to about three 'more likely' original plot possibilities.

1. Murder for obfuscation of abuse.
2. Sexual assault.
3. Kidnap for slave.

Each has the cord and tape brought there exclusively for criminal purposes.

Less likely original plots seem to leave the perp with no reason to hang around the house, and instead to leave with JBR quickly.

Bold above -- you made an assumption. It isn't a fact. Many IDIs and RDIs (and probably some Fence Sitters) believe the tape and cord were already in the house. Regardless, it's something that can't be proven or disproved so I have to contest your statement.

By the way, your "sexual assault" ... you make it sound like it could only be an Intruder who did the sexual assault. Could you clear up exactly what you mean with #2. TIA

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Bold above -- you made an assumption. It isn't a fact. Many IDIs and RDIs (and probably some Fence Sitters) believe the tape and cord were already in the house. Regardless, it's something that can't be proven or disproved so I have to contest your statement.

By the way, your "sexual assault" ... you make it sound like it could only be an Intruder who did the sexual assault. Could you clear up exactly what you mean with #2. TIA

Correct, it is an assumption the cord and tape were brought for criminal purposes. Its PROBABLY a safe one.

Original sexual assault plot could be along the lines of the 'pedophile ring' or the 'sex game' theories already presented. Even if JBR was willing participant in these scenarios, it would still originally have been a sexual assault plot.

 

[BOESP]

Correct, it is an assumption the cord and tape were brought for criminal purposes. Its PROBABLY a safe one.

Original sexual assault plot could be along the lines of the 'pedophile ring' or the 'sex game' theories already presented. Even if JBR was willing participant in these scenarios, it would still originally have been a sexual assault plot.

Bold above - you have many folks who disagree. If we are to take this seriously, neither side can insert opinion and use it for or against an Intruder or Ramsey-Did-It theory. Or are we just brainstorming here?

As to the second paragraph above, wouldn't it be better to say "sexual assault by Intruder?" For all we know the sexual assault could have come by Patsy, John, Burke, or some invited guest or combination thereof.