The actual vs. desired outcome

[Toltec]

You're misreading me, here. As far as I'm concerned, the 2nd ligature was used to forcibly move JBR while alive and resisting. It had slipknots. The 2nd ligature obviously lost purpose once she was dead, thats why it was found loose on her. The slipknots were no longer taut.


I was only wondering how the extra loops being empty on a staged crime scene makes sense to RDI. As far as I'm concerned, its a misinterpretation and oversimplification of the evidence to claim the loops were simply draped over her wrists after she was dead, and then slipped off one of her wrists, as if the stager didn't care about the loops being tight.

The 2nd ligature was used to forcibly move JonBenet while alive and resisting????

HELLO???? JonBenet would have screamed bloody murder! And don't give me that Stun-Gun explanation because if she had been Stun-Gunned...she wouldn't have been resisting.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The 2nd ligature was used to forcibly move JonBenet while alive and resisting????

HELLO???? JonBenet would have screamed bloody murder! And don't give me that Stun-Gun explanation because if she had been Stun-Gunned...she wouldn't have been resisting.

Maybe you should warn would-be kidnappers that the kid might scream. That'll change their minds I'm sure.

Seriously, how much JBR was resisting does depend on if she was stungunned or not. IMO she probably wasn't stungunned. But if she was it may explain why the cord ligatures left no marks on her wrists.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

As I see the photo, the third loop was the one around her neck. I am seeing the garotte against a blue coroner's sheet after it has been removed from JBR.


It's late, Holdon. Go to bed. You're making my brain hurt again.

.

You're seeing the photo wrong. The third loop was not the one around her neck. That loop was cut by the coroner in order to remove it from her neck. The third loop on the 2nd ligature is uncut. Question remains for RDI, what was the third loop for?

 

[JMO8778]

But it is that simple.

The cord was given many opportunities to be innocent. Any one of the following would put the cord in the house as invited guest:

1. Its not Home Depot, so a clerk could've easily remembered selling PR cord the preceeding month. When asked, clerk could've simply said yeah she bought some cord.

no,it's not Home Depot,it's McGunckins.they sell a ton of stuff.I doubt a clerk would recall specifically what Patsy bought.I used to be a cashier...it's like asking if I recall who bought toilet ppr on a certain day...how would I know? LOTS of ppl bought it that day !

Either JR or PR stating they purchased the cord for the innocent purpose. They have no reason to deny it.

just like they had no reason to deny the pineapple,the flashlight,the bowl and spoon,etc...
it's like watching an episode of Cops..."I don't know how that got there !" "That's not mine!" "I've never seen that before !"
"That belongs to someone else !" They ALL say the same thing.It's no different w/ the R's.

Plus it would be very risky to deny it and later found out they bought it.They could've simply said their intruder improvised with their cord like they did with their paintbrush

but the cord was a murder weapon,so why wouldn't they deny it? and perhaps the flashlight was,too.
Patsy took an art class and everyone knew she painted and had paintbrushes..those were hard to deny,and harder still to hide them all.
it's the same way JR denies the pineapple in DOI,saying 'the kids were free to eat whatever they wanted'. BUT..it doesn't work like that...JB specifically ate the pineapple after coming home...again,forensics is an exact science (much to the R's chagrin,I'm sure).It's not based on 'everything is everywhere,anytime and all the time'.

 

[JMO8778]

So this intruder brings with him a shoelace-type cord to do what???

he might have to tie his shoelaces.

but good point.seriously,if an intruder were to bring cord with him,I would think it would be something more substantial.now I'm not going to buy into Holdon's saying that the SFF has greater weapons,they just haven't showed them to us.One would think that for starters,they'd have better cord.Indeed they would.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

As far as I am concerned, the cord is brought to the crime scene for the purpose of assaulting and/or murdering JBR. Its pretty obvious that is the most likely scenario, because the cord appears to be exclusive to the crime, and can't be factually linked to any other purpose.

And with cord fibers showing up in JBR's bed, it has all the appearances of a kidnapping that started at the last place JBR was seen by witnesses.

So the evidence (cord, and cord fibers) is consistent with witness testimony that an assailant removed JBR from her bed using a cord brought for that purpose.

 

[BOESP]

As far as I am concerned, the cord is brought to the crime scene for the purpose of assaulting and/or murdering JBR. Its pretty obvious that is the most likely scenario, because the cord appears to be exclusive to the crime, and can't be factually linked to any other purpose.

And with cord fibers showing up in JBR's bed, it has all the appearances of a kidnapping that started at the last place JBR was seen by witnesses.

So the evidence (cord, and cord fibers) is consistent with witness testimony that an assailant removed JBR from her bed using a cord brought for that purpose.

Holdon, please cite the source that states cords in JonBenet's bed were consistent with the cords found on her body. TIA

By the way, if the cord was put on her in the bed, it doesn't prove an Intruder did it; it only suggests that's the probable location of part of the crime.

 

[coloradokares]

As far as I am concerned, the cord is brought to the crime scene for the purpose of assaulting and/or murdering JBR. Its pretty obvious that is the most likely scenario, because the cord appears to be exclusive to the crime, and can't be factually linked to any other purpose.

And with cord fibers showing up in JBR's bed, it has all the appearances of a kidnapping that started at the last place JBR was seen by witnesses.

So the evidence (cord, and cord fibers) is consistent with witness testimony that an assailant removed JBR from her bed using a cord brought for that purpose.

I for one encourage you to hold on ( no pun intended ) to that belief that the cord flashlight and the other items were brought to the scene by the intruder. You go ahead and disregard all evidence that all the stuff at McGuckins was just a coinkidink along with the phantom pinneapple etc.. its your right to believe however whatever you feel compelled to believe. :doh: :crazy: I got a headache

 

[coloradokares]

I for one encourage you to hold on ( no pun intended ) to that belief that the cord flashlight and the other items were brought to the scene by the intruder. You go ahead and disregard all evidence that all the stuff at McGuckins was just a coinkidink along with the phantom pinneapple etc.. its your right to believe however whatever you feel compelled to believe. :doh: :crazy: I got a headache

Just one little thing. Did it ever occur to you how strange it would seem to some officer had this intruder been stopped to listen to some explanation about a treasure hunt yeah thats the ticket yeah thats what it was. Yes it was a treasure hunt for pineapple flashlights and rope and tape etc yesssss all for Morgan Fairchild yeah thats it thats the ticket. :waitasec:

 

[Toltec]

Everything used in JonBenet's murder came from the home.

Flashlight....on the kitchen counter. Wiped clean of prints with the windex bottle found in the hallway shelf.

Duct tape...found in the junk drawer...the strip of duct tape coming off of one of Patsy's paintings in the basement.

paintbrush...found in the basement.

cord....most likely used up....came from one of Patsy's paintings in the basement.

Robert Ressler said...if the body is found in the home, the items used in the murder came from the home, then you have to look for the culprit in the home.

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as I am concerned, the cord is brought to the crime scene for the purpose of assaulting and/or murdering JBR. Its pretty obvious that is the most likely scenario, because the cord appears to be exclusive to the crime, and can't be factually linked to any other purpose.

And with cord fibers showing up in JBR's bed, it has all the appearances of a kidnapping that started at the last place JBR was seen by witnesses.

So the evidence (cord, and cord fibers) is consistent with witness testimony that an assailant removed JBR from her bed using a cord brought for that purpose.

That cord was way too flimsy to have been used to remove a, awake child from her room. If she was unconscious, they wouldn't have needed the cord. The cord fibers did NOT show up in her bed. The rope fibers that were found in her room were from a think, hemp rope that was found in the adjoining bedroom. Actually, PR used that hemp rope to decorate the "western" theme Christmas tree that was in JAR's room. PR admittedly placed decorated artificial trees in nearly every room that year, for the house tour. Each tree in the bedrooms was decorated in a theme specific to that person. PR decribed JAR's tree as having rope garland and tiny cowboy boots (weren't there "mystery" cowboy boots found in Charlevoix?).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Everything used in JonBenet's murder came from the home.

Its widely reported that the cord and tape have not been sourced to anything in the house.

I could respond with a similar claim, that it was brought there by 3 adults who intended to kidnap JBR and take her to another country.

 

[DeeDee249]

Its widely reported that the cord and tape have not been sourced to anything in the house.

I could respond with a similar claim, that it was brought there by 3 adults who intended to kidnap JBR and take her to another country.

Why three? Do you have a theory as to who they were? What was their plan to get her (unnoticed) out of the county when they have left a ransom note which informs the parents she had been kidnapped?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Why three? Do you have a theory as to who they were? What was their plan to get her (unnoticed) out of the county when they have left a ransom note which informs the parents she had been kidnapped?

The one ransom note author, plus the two gentlemen, makes three, right?

The ransom note informs the parents that they'll call between 8 and 10 tomorrow, and to not call police or she dies. Within the context of the ransom note author's view of things, 8 and 10 AM tomorrow would've been the next day. In fact, that would be 26-28 hours after the R's called 911.

Thats enough time for many different plans to get her out of the country unnoticed.

 

[DeeDee249]

The "two gentlemen" were really PR & JR.

No kidpapper actually believes parents won't call police. They always call police. In this case, they also called a posse of friends victim's advocates. They wanted to portray themselves as victims immediately.

Holdon, I took another look at the autopsy pics of the wrist loops. You are correct- the neck ligature was not pictured attached to the wrist loops. However, on close inspection, I can clearly see that what you think is a "third" loop is actually the second wrist loop that had been tied so loosely that part of it slipped back through the knot. It really isn't 3 loops.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The "two gentlemen" were really PR & JR.

No kidpapper actually believes parents won't call police. They always call police. In this case, they also called a posse of friends victim's advocates. They wanted to portray themselves as victims immediately.

Holdon, I took another look at the autopsy pics of the wrist loops. You are correct- the neck ligature was not pictured attached to the wrist loops. However, on close inspection, I can clearly see that what you think is a "third" loop is actually the second wrist loop that had been tied so loosely that part of it slipped back through the knot. It really isn't 3 loops.

'On close inspection' happens to be more an opinion. Really, there's a double slip-knot at one end and what looks like a fixed loop at the other.

Three loops. Thats my opinion, as opposed to your opinion.

Of course, you could just count loops. One, two, and, yep, sure enough, three.
For others who would like to count loops, here's the link.
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote5.jpg

 

[icedtea4me]

Three loops. Three pages. Three exclamation marks. John mentioned three times in the note. Patsy says note was found on the third step. Quite a few references to the number 3. A triangulation?


-Tea

 

[JMO8778]

As far as I am concerned, the cord is brought to the crime scene for the purpose of assaulting and/or murdering JBR. Its pretty obvious that is the most likely scenario, because the cord appears to be exclusive to the crime, and can't be factually linked to any other purpose.

I think that's b/c...it was all used up !!

 

[JMO8778]

By the way, if the cord was put on her in the bed, it doesn't prove an Intruder did it; it only suggests that's the probable location of part of the crime.

and strangely,BR's knife got moved to the basement,even though the housekeeper said she'd hid it from him on a shelf right outside JB's bedroom.
And then in DOI,we have another one of JR's highly general remarks that 'Burke had a tendency to leave his knife anywhere at any given time'. (another one of those anytime,any place remarks re: evidence).I guess it got up and walked to the basement,right outside where JB was found.
I think it was used to cut the rope,and besides the housekeeper,only Patsy would have known where to find it.(no wonder they tried to frame the housekeeper as well).

 

[JMO8778]

I could respond with a similar claim, that it was brought there by 3 adults who intended to kidnap JBR and take her to another country.

I hope they got her passport.was that part of their plan,too?