The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[human]

Aking,
Everyone should remember the R's are not saying the pineapple is not theirs, Pasty says she bought pineapple, already cut from Safeways.

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There is so,much info that I forgot about the cut up pineapple. When the fact was brought up that there was green in her stomach, all I could focus on is how incredibly difficult it is to cut a fresh pineapple. I Could not see Burke doing it.

Thanks,to everyone to bring me back on track

 

[Brendon]

That makes no sense.

She is how the kidnapper is going to get the ransom money.
The 'kidnapper' also had duct tape and had put it on her mouth.

Then he/she hit her when she struggled free.

The kidnapper is not going to get the money now. The ransom note now becomes a misdirect. Keep in mind I said the person knew the Ramseys. He/she would want to remain unknown then, and the misdirects (lets assume "foreign faction" is a misdirect) in the ransom note suggest this, yes? Example: the person is connected to the beauty pageant social clique - so they misdirect by addressing it to John instead of Patsy, and talking about his business. Just a theory.

 

[flgrl017]

Why do you think PR would be exactly the same as you? I was awake for 72 hours once (giving birth). The first 24 were a piece of cake.

Good point. Once you have a kid and make it through the first few months when they eat every 2-3 hours, one night of little to no sleep is a piece of cake.

 

[Frigga]

That makes no sense.

She is how the kidnapper is going to get the ransom money.
The 'kidnapper' also had duct tape and had put it on her mouth.

And a frickin stun gun- if you believe the Ramsey's and Lou Smit. GMAB- she was a 40 pound 6 year old girl.

The foreign faction threatening beheading is not prepared for this?

 

[Brendon]

Why do you think PR would be exactly the same as you? I was awake for 72 hours once (giving birth). The first 24 were a piece of cake.

Could ask you the same question. lol

 

[Advocate4]

Why would a nine year old boy, trying to move his unconscious sisters body try to drag her by the neck, rather then by the more obvious choice of just pulling her by the arms?

I don't think it makes much sense that any kid would think tying something around somebodies neck and pulling them by it, was a bad idea.

Possibly BR couldn't get a good enough grip on her wrists/arms to allow him to pull her very far, very fast. He would have had to bend over double to do that and walk backwards. I would tend to agree that he was old enough to know that tying something around her neck and pulling her by it was not a good idea, but that doesn't mean he understood that it could/would kill her by strangulation (or he may have thought she was already dead) and his driving thought at the time was a panicky need to hide her. Using the cord with handle attached allowed for much better grip to pull, and he would have been able to stand upright or nearly so (per autopsy report, the cord measured 17 inches from the knot at the neck to the handle).

 

[UKGuy]

Then why weren't JBRs prints on the bowl?

ElleElle,
Because, IMO, BR fetched the bowl from the fridge and used the spoon to ladle out JonBenet a serving. Bear in mind the condensed milk would probably have been in the fridge or some cupboard, and it would need opened also, unless the serving bowl was already prepared, thus explaining PR fingerprints on it?

.

 

[Funky funky]

Sooo... I've just watched the A&E show and while it was very pro Ramsey and didn't convince me of their innocence, the argument that the strangulation came first was interesting, particularly the scratch marks? I think it makes sense that she may have been strangled first and then hit on the head by one of the family to put her out of her misery ( I know that sounds awful but can't think of another way to word it)

 

[Brendon]

Possibly BR couldn't get a good enough grip on her wrists/arms to allow him to pull her very far, very fast. He would have had to bend over double to do that and walk backwards. I would tend to agree that he was old enough to know that tying something around her neck and pulling her by it was not a good idea, but that doesn't mean he understood that it could/would kill her by strangulation (or he may have thought she was already dead) and his driving thought at the time was a panicky need to hide her. Using the cord with handle attached allowed for much better grip to pull, and he would have been able to stand upright or nearly so (per autopsy report, the cord measured 17 inches from the knot at the neck to the handle).

If true it is an extreme act by a very unstable individual.

We have a 9 year old smashing his sister's skull in. Then he dragging her downstairs, after taping her mouth with duct tape, by the neck using a rope and some stick. Since no-one has mentioned violent behavior in him prior, its all escalated pretty quickly. Not that I'm doubting you.

 

[ThinkHard]

Lets go with the story that B hit her on the head, then P finished her off with the garotte. Well, its about 11pm, and yeah, Patsy is running on adrenaline. It helps her spend some time writing the ransom note, and cleaning the place up. At 8am, you could see her running on adrenaline. Been up for 24 hours, though. But this is all very exhausting. If she was still running on adrenaline 15 hours later, I got a feeling someone would have said something about her being incoherent or nodding off, which wouldn't make sense. She had a big day the day before, remember? So yes, that is no small thing.

I disagree completely. I think your trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

If this is some proof to you that they must have slept and couldn't possibly have done it, I think it's a very weak piece of evidence even if we were privy to it.

There is MUCH stronger evidence for the BDI theory that you seem to be blatantly ignoring....yet here you grasp at straws for some obscure proof of their innocence.

It's feels like you are making details fit a preconceived notion, rather then looking at the evidence subjectively.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Aking,
Its fairly common I have it regularly, using condensed milk, very tasty. You can use other fruits too, but the natural sweetness of the pineapple ads to the flavor.

i disagree with Kolar and think it was JonBenet who was snacking at the breakfast bar. BR would not need the serving bowl, he would just need to fetch from the fridge and eat.

He probably had a cup of tea and cookies while JonBenet snacked on the pineapple. It was Christmas so both children were up to all sorts of tricks to enjoy themselves, away from the boring adults?

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JonBenet's prints weren't on the bowl or the spoon, so presumably it was Burke - whose fingerprints were on the bowl - who was going to eat the pineapple, despite Patsy's claims that, while he was okay with pineapple, he would have found chocolate instead. And he was the one who liked sweet tea. His fingerprints were on that glass as well.

Burke's reaction to the photo of the pineapple is very significant to me. I don't think he was thinking about the fragments in her digestive tract. He probably had no idea about that. Either something happened while he was eating the fruit that played a direct role in the murder, or he knew it was proof that it was a lie that he went to bed and stayed there.

 

[TTF14]

Sooo... I've just watched the A&E show and while it was very pro Ramsey and didn't convince me of their innocence, the argument that the strangulation came first was interesting, particularly the scratch marks? I think it makes sense that she may have been strangled first and then hit on the head by one of the family to put her out of her misery ( I know that sounds awful but can't think of another way to word it)

I can't see it happening that way. One blow to the head is not enough to guarantee putting anyone out of their misery.

On the other hand, I could see JBR still being alive after a blow to the head, but unconscious and appearing to be dead. She was then strangled with force (because who is going to stage a strangling on a person they think is already dead and NOT do it with force.....it wouldn't look real.) I don't think those are fingernail marks on her neck, either. Weren't her hands "tied behind her back?" (please correct me if I'm wrong)

If the strangulation came first, and if her hands were actually tied, she couldn't have scratched at her neck. If the blow to the head came first, I think the strangulation was just an attempt at staging, but actually did contribute to her death because she was still alive.

Does a body continue to digest food even when brain dead?

 

[human]

ElleElle,
Because, IMO, BR fetched the bowl from the fridge and used the spoon to ladle out JonBenet a serving. Bear in mind the condensed milk would probably have been in the fridge or some cupboard, and it would need opened also, unless the serving bowl was already prepared, thus explaining PR fingerprints on it?

.

So what about the can of condensed milk and a can opener? Anything about that?

 

[Brendon]

I disagree completely. I think your trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

If this is some proof to you that they must have slept and couldn't possibly have done it, I think it's a very weak piece of evidence even if we were privy to it.

There is MUCH stronger evidence for the BDI theory that you seem to be blatantly ignoring....yet here you grasp at straws for some obscure proof of their innocence.

It's feels like you are making details fit a preconceived notion, rather then looking at the evidence subjectively.

I have asked for actual evidence that ties any of the family to the murder. Not one answer. Because there is none. So I'm hardly grasping at straws looking at other angles, am I?

You do it: put forward actual real evidence tying in one of the family into JB's killing. Strong evidence, as you say.

 

[TeaTime]

The story that one of the Ramseys killed JonBenet (accidentally or on purpose) that night, then the three of them covering it up, is a story you could drive a truck through, and back it up at an angle. And still not hit anything.

You have to be blind to a lot of basic things to believe it. When you stack all the improbables next to each other, the story looks close to impossible to swallow. jmo


But if you say:
There was no obvious footsteps outside,
pineapple "something, something",
highly unlikely they got in through the back window,
Burke (accidentally) hit JonBenet with a gold club over a year before,
Burke looks funny
they got lawyered up (how dare they)
etc

Why then, they just got to be the ones!

Brendon, of course I could not disagree more. The totality of the circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly points to Burke as the person who crack JBR's skull and to ignore the mountain of evidence that incriminates him is to just a decision to remain blind when offered a corneal transplant to restore sight.

To continue to believe in the mythological intruder is to be served a platter of 'improbables' and stubbornly swallow them whole with full knowledge that they are, in fact, 'improbables' while sitting in the valley of the mountain of probables.

 

[Amity]

I haven't kept up with the JBR threads here at Websleuths in forever.
It wasn't until I started hearing the rumblings of Docuseries/Movies, etc that would be coming up for the 20th anniversary of JBR's death that I ventured back to these forums.
Great to see so many familiar names from years ago!

I am going to share a theory that's been in my brain for several years.
Watching the TV shows about JBR murder have only intensified my thoughts.

What I need from all of you Websleuth JBR experts is to de-bunk my thoughts so that I can move on with more realistic theories about JBR's murder.

Being it's been years since I've followed the JBR threads I have forgotten so many names of the key players.
Outside of PR and JR, who would you think would be the closest person to BR?
Someone he trusted.....teen or adult.....to open up to, vent to, discuss things happening around him/behind closed doors of the mansion that he didn't like, etc.

What I'm getting at..........and please don't roll your eyes too hard at my idea of what happened. I know it's way out there.

What if PR and JR are actually innocent of knowing that JBR was dead in the WC?
What if everything happened that night as it's been speculated here on the board and on the 2-part Docustory.

JBR comes down stairs, and in a bratty neener, neener style grabs pineapple out of BR's bowl and runs. From the latest information coming out, sounds like BR had some anger/rage inssues.
A chase ensues with JBR running down toward the basement and BR following close behind.
BR would have already been caught up to JBR in this chase but he stopped to grab the longest-reach and heaviest object he could to 'pay back' JBR for touching and taking his pineapple.


Everything happens down in the basement/wine cellar as speculated EXCEPT.....
What if JR and PR stayed asleep?
What if this some say 'sneaky' almost 10 year old saw what he did, realized it was more serious than just konking his sister hard over the head for taking his pineapple and after some panic, makes a phone call to a teen or adult he knows will help him out of this situation?
Who was considered BR's sort of mentor back then? Someone who would be able to come over and BR unlock and open the front door for that person or persons?
One or two people rushing over in the wee hours of the morning to 'help' BR out of this predicament? They probably got to the mansion without knowing just how serious the situation was.

Yes, JR found JBR rather quickly when told to go check the house again. Could it be that while all the commotion of people in the house was going on, JR was quietly going through things in his mind and a light bulb moment happened where he realized there was only one correct answer to who did this?
Maybe he saw the bowl of pineapple.....anything could have triggered his light bulb moment and at that moment he realized one of BR's favorite hiding places or places where he liked to be alone was in the wine cellar and JR took it from there.

Having a lot of teens around me daily, ages 14 - 19, I can see a couple teens or even young adults concocting the whole ransom scenario......and especially composing that RN with all the movie quote references.

I just can't get the idea out of my head that all the staging looks more like it was done by one or two older teens or young adults than it would be done by parents who supposedly loved that little girl.

I'm not saying the parents didn't do all that staging but I am hoping you all can help me de-bunk my idea about BR calling someone to the home to help him with the mess he got himself into.

If you've read my short novel here, thank you!

 

[Frigga]

Then he/she hit her when she struggled free.

The kidnapper is not going to get the money now. The ransom note now becomes a misdirect. Keep in mind I said the person knew the Ramseys. He/she would want to remain unknown then, and the misdirects (lets assume "foreign faction" is a misdirect) in the ransom note suggest this, yes? Example: the person is connected to the beauty pageant social clique - so they misdirect by addressing it to John instead of Patsy, and talking about his business. Just a theory.

If the kidnapping was "botched" you don't take the time to stage the body- you certainly don't leave the 3 page ransome note with the treasure trove of clues that can lead back to you.

Why are the kidnappers- the group of individuals back in the basement- at all if you are there to kidnap her? You walk out the front door- it was the middle of the night? The parents are on the 3rd floor for god sake. You've left the note on the stairs- you have Jonbenet out of her bed.

Not buying what you're selling here- not many people will. Been there- done that... for years here.

 

[johnjay]

I have asked for actual evidence that ties any of the family to the murder. Not one answer. Because there is none. So I'm hardly grasping at straws looking at other angles, am I?

You do it: put forward actual real evidence tying in one of the family into JB's killing. Strong evidence, as you say.

Well there was a dead body found in their house and there is no evidence that points to anyone else being there. And they lied to police about very basic events in that house. There's no reason to suspect anyone but a Ramsey. And to decided which one, judgement must be applied.

 

[GoodGurl]

ElleElle,
Because, IMO, BR fetched the bowl from the fridge and used the spoon to ladle out JonBenet a serving. Bear in mind the condensed milk would probably have been in the fridge or some cupboard, and it would need opened also, unless the serving bowl was already prepared, thus explaining PR fingerprints on it?

.

Re PR fingerprints, did she have a everyday housekeeper? Not likely she emptied dishwasher, esp at a busy season like that. More likely she handled the bowl at a later time. Now knowing it's condensed milk (requires opening a can), and a huge serving, not a few pieces....would a kid do all that? Or just eat out of the plastic box in the frige?

 

[UKGuy]

JonBenet's prints weren't on the bowl or the spoon, so presumably it was Burke - whose fingerprints were on the bowl - who was going to eat the pineapple, despite Patsy's claims that, while he was okay with pineapple, he would have found chocolate instead. And he was the one who liked sweet tea. His fingerprints were on that glass as well.

Burke's reaction to the photo of the pineapple is very significant to me. I don't think he was thinking about the fragments in her digestive tract. He probably had no idea about that. Either something happened while he was eating the fruit that played a direct role in the murder, or he knew it was proof that it was a lie that he went to bed and stayed there.

HarmonyE,
BBM: presumably JonBenet never touched the bowl, it was fetched and served by BR, so explaining his fingerprints. Anyway it need not be an exclusive snack, both BR and JonBenet might have snacked pineapple, otherwise why bother with the serving bowl. Incidentally JonBenet was too small to reach into the freezer and fetch the pineapple.

Regardless of the details, JonBenet snacked pineapple and BR's prints are on the glass and bowl thereby linking both to the breakfast bar!

.