The cross-fingerpointing defense

[Intriguing]

Returning to the opening of this thread, I think the inconclusive grouping of fingerprints was certainly a big factor. However, I reckon if any prints were found on the ligature, body, nightie etc and they came from both parents, then I feel that a prosecutor would have pressed hard to open some alternative avenue to prosecute. If Burke's prints were present alongside one or both the parents, that would introduce such a bizarre and confusing series of possibilities that no jury could convict anyone beyond reasonable doubt.

Regarding the final post, people seem to be talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) when describing Patsy. That seems to be readily apparent. Yet such a disorder rarely leads to murder - children are seen as 'extensions' of the parent and a parent rarely lops off a limb as it reflects badly on them. What would be intolerable for an NPD is any sign of dysfunction in the objectified extensions of her own personality i.e. the kids. Now any suspicions of Burke engaging in inappropriate activities with his sister would not be viewed kindly by the NPD - it wouldn't be seen from the child's point of view.

I get a sense that Patsy ruled the roost in the house. She was the dominant figure - doesn't necessarily mean she was physically abusive or intentionally cruel. I do think an NPD confronted with the potential social ostracism of 'incest' (kids playing doctors and nurses to a more balanced adult mind), would be empowered to stage an elaborate cover-up to keep this hidden. NPD's typically cause their offspring sustained phsychological damage - the last thing they would do is cause any visible signs of physical trauma as they would be judged negatively by their peers.

 

[Flatlander]

Returning to the opening of this thread, I think the inconclusive grouping of fingerprints was certainly a big factor. However, I reckon if any prints were found on the ligature, body, nightie etc and they came from both parents, then I feel that a prosecutor would have pressed hard to open some alternative avenue to prosecute. If Burke's prints were present alongside one or both the parents, that would introduce such a bizarre and confusing series of possibilities that no jury could convict anyone beyond reasonable doubt.

Regarding the final post, people seem to be talking about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) when describing Patsy. That seems to be readily apparent. Yet such a disorder rarely leads to murder - children are seen as 'extensions' of the parent and a parent rarely lops off a limb as it reflects badly on them. What would be intolerable for an NPD is any sign of dysfunction in the objectified extensions of her own personality i.e. the kids. Now any suspicions of Burke engaging in inappropriate activities with his sister would not be viewed kindly by the NPD - it wouldn't be seen from the child's point of view.

I get a sense that Patsy ruled the roost in the house. She was the dominant figure - doesn't necessarily mean she was physically abusive or intentionally cruel. I do think an NPD confronted with the potential social ostracism of 'incest' (kids playing doctors and nurses to a more balanced adult mind), would be empowered to stage an elaborate cover-up to keep this hidden. NPD's typically cause their offspring sustained phsychological damage - the last thing they would do is cause any visible signs of physical trauma as they would be judged negatively by their peers.

I watch a lot of forensic shows because it has always intrigued me. There has to be fingerprint anaylsis done on a lot of things other than the pineapple bowl and tea. i.e. spoon with pineapple. Ever hear any word about who those belonged to?

From BR drawing I would not say that PR was NOT a dominant figure in the R's household. Maybe over JB's life because I believe PR lived her life through her daughter. Nobody wants to be judged negatively, period. But considering the Pughs household I wouldn't be surprised if PR wasn't sexually molested. Look at NP comments that JB was only a little molested. Really? There is no such thing as a little abuse. As for the NPD and PR I will agree with you. Remember her actions after JB death - poor me best decribes PR. But I still believe that she staged the crime scene as a cover.

 

[midwest mama]

I watch a lot of forensic shows because it has always intrigued me. There has to be fingerprint anaylsis done on a lot of things other than the pineapple bowl and tea. i.e. spoon with pineapple. Ever hear any word about who those belonged to?

From BR drawing I would not say that PR was NOT a dominant figure in the R's household. Maybe over JB's life because I believe PR lived her life through her daughter. Nobody wants to be judged negatively, period. But considering the Pughs household I wouldn't be surprised if PR wasn't sexually molested. Look at NP comments that JB was only a little molested. Really? There is no such thing as a little abuse. As for the NPD and PR I will agree with you. Remember her actions after JB death - poor me best decribes PR. But I still believe that she staged the crime scene as a cover.

And John Ramsey is still trying to make it about him - new book to explain how well he's doing now. Yuck. JR is host of NPD also!

I wondered if they took the 'garrote' apart and dusted the part of the stick under the cord wrapping. If there were no gloves worn when the cord was wrapped around it, that part of the stick might have clear prints on it. They put the original ransom note through testing that altered it from it's original state, so why couldn't they have done that with the stick?

 

[dodie20]

I watch a lot of forensic shows because it has always intrigued me. There has to be fingerprint anaylsis done on a lot of things other than the pineapple bowl and tea. i.e. spoon with pineapple. Ever hear any word about who those belonged to?

From BR drawing I would not say that PR was NOT a dominant figure in the R's household. Maybe over JB's life because I believe PR lived her life through her daughter. Nobody wants to be judged negatively, period. But considering the Pughs household I wouldn't be surprised if PR wasn't sexually molested. Look at NP comments that JB was only a little molested. Really? There is no such thing as a little abuse. As for the NPD and PR I will agree with you. Remember her actions after JB death - poor me best decribes PR. But I still believe that she staged the crime scene as a cover.

I agree with your opinion on BR's drawing. What it sounded like, (even though I didn't see the picture), is that JB was non existant, JR was distant, PR was insignificant, and I would guess that BR saw himself as the dominant figure... and wow, on that thought. I don't know how much JB's death affected his drawing, (I'd guess a lot, but IDK with this guy), but I would think if PR was running the show, it would have shown up in the drawing. JB, not being in the drawing, bothered me the most.

 

[Flatlander]

JB, not being in the drawing, bothered me the most.

Very telling don't you think? I lost my ex seven years ago and still have a hard time coping with the fact that he is no longer a part of our lives. I can not imagine losing one of my brothers as a young age and not be affected by it!
Also worth noting here is that BR was all smiles at JB funeral. Seemed to be it was all about BR now. So sad for me to see it and then for me say it

 

[BBB167893]

If the evidence is so overwhelming that the Ramseys did it, then ask yourself why the entire RDI can't reach a consensus on which Ramsey did it?

Linda A- John Did It
Steve Thomas- Patsy Did It
James Kolar- Burke Did It, Parents Covered It Up

They don't agree because there is a cluster mess of information and evidence.

Linda A. was their when the body was found and she saw Patsy's reaction and decided no way that she did it.
Steve Thomas spent his entire career in narcotics and came to the conclusion that John did it because John was more consistent in the interviews.

I think this is the right thread for that conversation.

 

[andreww]

I think this is the right thread for that conversation.

Well if all three are involved, then nobody is wrong.


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[bettybaby00]

Quote Originally Posted by Global Justice Ops
If the evidence is so overwhelming that the Ramseys did it, then ask yourself why the entire RDI can't reach a consensus on which Ramsey did it?

Linda A- John Did It
Steve Thomas- Patsy Did It
James Kolar- Burke Did It, Parents Covered It Up

They don't agree because there is a cluster mess of information and evidence.

Linda A. was their when the body was found and she saw Patsy's reaction and decided no way that she did it.
Steve Thomas spent his entire career in narcotics and came to the conclusion that John did it because John was more consistent in the interviews.
I think this is the right thread for that conversation.

I think this is the right thread for that conversation.

The first quote I posted seems to have been c&p? As there is no link button back to the original quote.

Anyway, it's an interesting question. For me, This case is RDI, yet there are numerous variations, PDI, JDI, PDI&JDI, BDI, etc., etc.

I think the main reason this case could never move toward resolution stems from the Rs themselves. They never allowed themselves to be fully investigated. EVER. Their high priced l gal team successfully thwarted any meaningful investigation. It's common knowlegend that parents, close associations have to be cleared, yet they weren't cooperating. They refused to any kind of official questioning for FOUR MONTHS. And thanks to Hunter and then Lacy, many of the usual avenues of investigation were blocked. the phone records are one glaring example. Ditto for the medical records.

This case is a perfect storm, and that's why I feel the Rs proved such elusive suspects. The botched crime scene, the issue of treating the Rs with kid gloves, the failure to obtain critical evidence in a timely manner, and perhaps the most significant issue of having a DA who was too afraid to to seek justice for this poor child. I think a more vigilant, and determined prosecutor could have overcome these obstacles, or at the very least would have tried to do so.

MOO

 

[andreww]

Amen to that. I've always wished that Alex Hunter would have had the balls to move forward with the case despite the fact that he probably would have lost. At least the evidence would have come out and the public could decide for themselves. People are pretty good at telling fact from legal trickery. OJ was acquitted, but that trial exposed him for what he was, and there were not many people that actually believed in his innocence after that. It would have been nice to see the Ramsey's publicly exposed as well.


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[BBB167893]

Well if all three are involved, then nobody is wrong.


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Sadly, andreww, if all three are involved, then nobody is right, either. It's built-in reasonable doubt.

 

[BBB167893]

I think a more vigilant, and determined prosecutor could have overcome these obstacles, or at the very least would have tried to do so.

bettybaby00, that is, to my way of thinking, the crux of the matter. I've heard it from multiple sources: you don't solve a domestic homicide with forensic evidence: you do it by getting a confession by getting one accomplice to turn on the other. That's what the police wanted to do, but the DA turned them down flat. In his 60s-radical mindset, the police were more dangerous than 1000 criminals.