The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 10th July - Trial Day 18

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Freya1977

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On the topic of "no leaves in the car" - I have struggled with the evidence led that there was "no sign of a cleanup" in the car. How do they know it wasn't vacuumed out? Sure there was no clear sign of blood found on the vacuum brush etc, but what about the leaves, mud etc? Perhaps by "no sign of a cleanup" they meant no bleach, attempt to hide/clean away blood etc.

I'd say they mean no bleach....that's the only clean-up they could test for I'd think?
 

sleepinoz

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This very simple page is relevant here. It has probably been posted before, but just in case.
It's a QLD court document showing how the jury should assess murder vs manslaughter.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data...b-146-unlawful-killing-manslaughter-s-303.pdf

Personally I think the murder of Allison wasn't premeditated and in reaction to a fight between the two.

This question here is relevant and I believe that is what the judge was eluding to when suggesting that manslaughter is an option.

4. Has the prosecution proved that A was not provoked by B?
a. If “no” to question 4, A is not guilty of murder but guilty of
manslaughter.
b. If “yes” to question 4, go to question 5.


The definition of what "provoked" is could be up for debate.
I am unsure if threatening divorce/separation can be considered "provoked" given the argument would have been about his actions, not hers.

IMO - There was no mention of anything "Provoked" in anyone's testimony, no mention of Threatening divorce/separation - so I don't believe this would apply.
 

Fluffykins

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This question here is relevant and I believe that is what the judge was eluding to when suggesting that manslaughter is an option.

4. Has the prosecution proved that A was not provoked by B?
a. If “no” to question 4, A is not guilty of murder but guilty of
manslaughter.
b. If “yes” to question 4, go to question 5.


The definition of what "provoked" is could be up for debate.
I am unsure if threatening divorce/separation can be considered "provoked" given the argument would have been about his actions, not hers.

RSBM. Wow. I really don't see why the onus should be on the prosecution to prove there was no provocation, I think it should be on the defence to prove there was. MOO
 

PrimeSuspect

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Well that's very interesting. There has to be a reason why they'd do this. Perhaps we've not heard the end of the "roundabout" yet.........da da daaaaaaaa!

Maybe, GBC had to stay home in case the girls woke, so that means someone drove the car and disposed of the body? :waitasec:
 

Thinking

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The judge all but warned them off manslaughter yesterday. He said that there had been no evidence presented by either side to support a verdict of manslaughter and that the only reason he was telling them they had the option is because he was legally obliged to do so. Hearing the way he said it, if I were on the jury I'd be thinking it was not the way to go. But, I think if they have trouble agreeing then they may go for it.

What's the sentencing likely to be if it was manslaughter, anyone know? And the interference with a corpse charge would still stick right?

Thanks Freya - this is what I thought re the manslaughter option too - the judge was saying it because he had to, not because it is actually a likely option. All or nothing I reckon! If the jury believe the PT's proposition that he smothered Allison, or even if they believe he strangled her, then it is murder all the way - you don't "accidentally" smother someone to death IMO.
 

Freya1977

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Thanks Freya - this is what I thought re the manslaughter option too - the judge was saying it because he had to, not because it is actually a likely option. All or nothing I reckon! If the jury believe the PT's proposition that he smothered Allison, or even if they believe he strangled her, then it is murder all the way - you don't "accidentally" smother someone to death IMO.

Yes I think the fact she scratched his face up shows he had the opportunity to stop. He kept going even as she fought him off.
 

Phantom's Diana

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I am concerned that the jurors are weighted more males than females , just saying not evenly balanced.
 

alioop

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I feel kinda sorry for him/her. Probably thought they were being helpful but got a stern talking to from the Judge. I believe it was innocent and won't affect the outcome of anything, but it's not exactly confidence inspiring.

If there is a guilty verdict there will almost certainly be an appeal. This is standard for murder convictions as you have nothing to lose, particularly if it is funded by legal aid. So there will now be a couple more paragraphs in the appeal paperwork that include approaches to the jury and the juror bringing in the how to deliberate booklet, all of which it seems the jury bought to the judges attention as soon as they could. From what we know of those matters they won't be sufficient grounds for an appeal.
Hopefully the jury have well and truly got the message and there will be no more shenanigans.
 

Seeking

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Eammon Atkinson ‏@EAtkinson7 2m

#BadenClay jury has asked for a copy of the judge's summary. Prosecution and Defence don't want them to have it.

Judge has told jury he will re-read parts of his summary if they want to be reminded of it. #BadenClay

Alioop, why would the prosecution and defence teams both not want the jury not to have a written copy of the judges directions?
 

PrimeSuspect

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I am concerned that the jurors are weighted more males than females , just saying not evenly balanced.

AFAIK, the DT and PT pick six each, I wonder which side picked more male jurors? I was discussing this with my eldest daughter the other night, she felt the male jurors may be more sympathetic to GBC, the female jurors not so much. I'm not sure if this is a case where gender plays a role, it definitely does in some trials. jmo
 

Amee

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Justice warns juror’s downloading is 'wrong'

"You scarcely need to know what some overseas commentator speaking about a very different system of jury trials happens to think," he said.

Justice Byrne said the jury could use the guide to jury deliberations booklet which the court had approved to help them.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/jury-begins-deliberating-baden-clay-trial/2314591/?ref=hs


Rae Wilson ‏@RaeWilson78 2m

Here is the warning justice gave jurors after one brought in document on American juries #badenclay #court #qld. http://ow.ly/yZ5YF
 

PrimeSuspect

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THE jury deliberating in the Gerard Baden-Clay has been warned for a fourth time about seeking guidance outside the courtroom after a juror brought in a document from an American jury commentator.

Justice John Byrne gave the seven men and five woman, who began deliberating at 11.10am, a stern warning about not seeking help from external sources and told them the behaviour was "wrong".

"You scarcely need to know what some overseas commentator speaking about a very different system of jury trials happens to think," he said.

Justice Byrne said the jury could use the guide to jury deliberations booklet which the court had approved to help them.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/jury-begins-deliberating-baden-clay-trial/2314591/?ref=hs
 

catswhiskers

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On the topic of "no leaves in the car" - I have struggled with the evidence led that there was "no sign of a cleanup" in the car. How do they know it wasn't vacuumed out? Sure there was no clear sign of blood found on the vacuum brush etc, but what about the leaves, mud etc? Perhaps by "no sign of a cleanup" they meant no bleach, attempt to hide/clean away blood etc.

Perhaps it was just that the carpet didn't look as though it had been freshly vacuumed? I'm sure we've seen pics of the back of the car and it does seem to contain a bit of debris/dust etc. I've thought that it would be more likely to have been given a quick flick or brush out, even by hand, to remove any obvious larger leaves, twigs, etc. And even if some of the leaf litter was found in there - it would be reasonable to assume that it could be there for an innocent reason and not out of place at all. Some of it could have even been from the bottoms of the toy baskets/boxes.
 

squizzey1

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I am concerned that the jurors are weighted more males than females , just saying not evenly balanced.

don't worry ; myself and all the males I talk to actually have shown stronger feelings against him then the females have , strange as that may seem , so breathe easy PD
 

MRSA

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This very simple page is relevant here. It has probably been posted before, but just in case.
It's a QLD court document showing how the jury should assess murder vs manslaughter.

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data...b-146-unlawful-killing-manslaughter-s-303.pdf

Personally I think the murder of Allison wasn't premeditated and in reaction to a fight between the two.

This question here is relevant and I believe that is what the judge was eluding to when suggesting that manslaughter is an option.

4. Has the prosecution proved that A was not provoked by B?
a. If “no” to question 4, A is not guilty of murder but guilty of
manslaughter.
b. If “yes” to question 4, go to question 5.


The definition of what "provoked" is could be up for debate.
I am unsure if threatening divorce/separation can be considered "provoked" given the argument would have been about his actions, not hers.
I disagree entirely, I think the judge was instructing the jury that it was open to them to return an alternative verdict of guilty of manslaughter where they were satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant had unlawfully killed Allison but were not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that he had intended to kill or do GBH.
 

marlywings

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squizzey1

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AFAIK, the DT and PT pick six each, I wonder which side picked more male jurors? I was discussing this with my eldest daughter the other night, she felt the male jurors may be more sympathetic to GBC, the female jurors not so much. I'm not sure if this is a case where gender plays a role, it definitely does in some trials. jmo

wrong from my experience talking to others and being male it is very very much the opposite very much
 
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