The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 24th June - Trial Day 9, Week 3

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IBR

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Grrr - don't you hate it when the lawyer asks "Can you exclude it 100%?" and of course the expert witness HAS to say "Not completely - but it is unlikely".

Sometimes I just wish an expert witness would have the courage of their convictions and say "Yes I CAN exclude it! On the basis of my 35-year experience as a specialist in this field, an area where you, the lawyer, have NO expertise at all - zero - there was NO overdose in this case. An overdose of sertraline did NOT cause the death. So shove that in your pipe and smoke it!"

Defence is using this strategy with EVERY evidence, pretending that there is reasonable doubt if the experts can't exclude 100 %. At first sight this seems to be a clever strategy but if you look at the whole picture, you'll realise that defence does this all the time and that this, altogether, means that there is a reason that so many situations, although not 100 % impossible, are unlikely. The reason is that there is no reasonable doubt. Hopefully jurors at least have a rough idea of statistics...
 

MadDoc

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David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 56s
Defence asks about serotonin syndrome. Prof Drummer agrees it can cause confusion, anxiety agitation, delirium #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
But Prof Drummer says it wouldn't be expected from people taking normal doses of Sertraline #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 47s
Defence asks whether Sertraline can cause serotonin syndrome. Prof Drummer agrees it can. #badenclay

If Allison had serotonin syndrome, she would have been in no fit state to walk across the street, let alone walk 14km in the dark. She would have been shaking, sweating, heart racing, muscles twitching or un-coordinated, confused (would have got lost on her way to the bridge)...would have had a blinding headache, dilated pupils, nausea/vomiting, diarrhoea...

Plus, she would have had a much, MUCH higher level of sertraline in her system than "on the high side of clinical usage". Either that, or another drug must have been added to the sertraline to produce the serotonin syndrome - and there were no other drugs present.
 

ollijack

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Every time I scroll down and see PrimeSuspect and Amee's avatars in a row I feel like we should all have the same one as it gets closer to the day of the verdict.



that is a lovely idea:loveyou:
 

PrimeSuspect

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David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 51s
Police gave Dr Guymer specimens of plant material to examine #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 49s
Dr Guymer says he received specimens of plants taken from Allison's body on June 28. #badenclay


Francene Norton ‏@francenenorton 1m
Dr Guymer received plant specimens from police in June 2012 #badenclay @abcnews


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 41s
Dr Guymer says he looked at them under a microscope before comparing them to known specimens. #badenclay
 

PrimeSuspect

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David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Dr Guymer recognised some of the specimens straight away. Looked at some under microscope and compared with herbarium specimens #badenclay


Francene Norton ‏@francenenorton 54s
Dr Guymer says of 6 species he identified, 4 were entwined in Allison's hair and had to be cut out. #badenclay @abcnews


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Dr Guymer says he identified seven leaves of crepe myrtle entwined in Allison's hair. #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Four species entwined in hair included seven leaves of crepe myrtle #badenclay
 

DrWatson

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Now I'm just waiting to see how the defence is going to try and discredit Dr Guymer's evidence and expertise..... I know that's their job, but.....
 

PrimeSuspect

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Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Dr Guymer says fishbone fern was identified, as well as lillpilly. #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Thirdly, he found seven pinnae of fishbone fern in the hair #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Dr Guymer says three leaflets of Cat's Claw Creeper were identified. #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Dr Guymer also found leaflets and a tendril of cat's claw creeper #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Dr Guymer says parts of eucalypt leaves and bark were also identified. #badenclay

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Fourth, he found lilly pilly #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 2m
Dr Guymer says fishbone fern was identified, as well as lillpilly. #badenclay
 

PrimeSuspect

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David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
The specimen jars also included the bark and leaf of eucalypt, and Chinese elm #badenclay

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Six species in total identified in samples provided to Dr Guymer #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Chinese elm was also found with the body, Dr Guymer says. #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 58s
Dr Guymer says four of those species were found entwined in Allison's hair. #badenclay
 

MadDoc

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Any bets that the defence will try to argue Prof Drummer's figures or expertise? ;)

Hypothetical situation only - not related to the present trial at all...

Barrister (cross-examining): Tell me Doctor, is it true that you are not a true "doctor" at all? Isn't it the case that in Australia, the medical degree is only a bachelor's degree, not a doctorate, and therefore you are not entitled to be called "doctor"?

Medical practitioner: Yes, it is true that strictly speaking I'm not a Doctor. But my colleagues refer to me as "Doctor" as a professional courtesy - in much the same way that your colleagues refer to you as "my learned friend."
 

PrimeSuspect

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David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Court being shown photos of some of the leaves retrieved from Allison's hair and body #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 49s
Dr Guymer says the crepe myrtle leaves were "fallen leaves". #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Dr Guymer says crepe myrtle loses its leaves March to May. He says each one he examined was a fallen leaf #badenclay
 

L_B

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Now I'm just waiting to see how the defence is going to try and discredit Dr Guymer's evidence and expertise..... I know that's their job, but.....

Probably say something along the lines it's possible the plants were from somewhere else not just the carport (ie doesnt mean something happened in the carport, could have been elsewhere :banghead:)
 

PrimeSuspect

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Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 37s
Dr Guymer says the cat's claw creeper leaf has been pulled from a plant. It was attached at the time. #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 41s
Court shown a photo of a cat's claw creeper leaf retrieved from Allison's body #badenclay






This is quite interesting. :)
 

bikerchick

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Allison having her hair done may have been a double blessing - wonder if hair styling products helped those leaves to stick!
 

marlywings

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Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 37s
Dr Guymer says the cat's claw creeper leaf has been pulled from a plant. It was attached at the time. #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 41s
Court shown a photo of a cat's claw creeper leaf retrieved from Allison's body #badenclay






This is quite interesting. :)

Yep indication her body was dragged.
 
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