The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 24th June - Trial Day 9, Week 3

[possumheart]

Sorry - just because they went to a private boys only high school does not make them "network". Brisbane private high schools are not like Britain's Eton or the US-types as depicted in movies like "SKULLS". The "old boys networks" you talk of are really just a way the fellas may keep in touch or support the schools through fundraising.
You may have some "Old Boys" who may try the "What happened on .... stays on...." but that would be more because of their own lack or morals.

<modsnip>.

Trust me. The network is strong. A large established boys school, boarding boys from out west and offshore. Day boys too. Intergenerational loyalty. The Toowoomba Grammar vs Downlands' football matches are a HUGE deal. Boys emerging from Grammar to Brisbane need each other because they aren't from a Brisbane Private school. They need each other because they are almost, but not quite, top shelf - and hence, look after each other. In past years I have heard of OP fixing. The parents pay top dollar to buy their kids some social standing.
Perhaps I should get verified, but not long to go now ...

 

[McCoy]

Not a local and finding hard to put the screams supposedly heard into context.
Isn't the BC's home right near the show grounds? I'm confused that Dr Flegg could say the screams came from the direction of the showgrounds but then later said to defence that he would be very surprised if the screams came from the BC home?
Feel very doubtful about this testimony. It sounds like Dr Flegg and Sue Heath possibly by an 'extraordinary set of coincidences' found themselves inserted into this murder trial. Being asked to lend $400K (witness to the financial motives), hearing female screams on the night of the murder from the general direction, giving a secret phone to GBC in the days after the murder...
Weird also that Dr Flegg wouldn't know where GBC lives. It is a common question in chit chat when first meeting someone and they had known each other for a while.
Also wondering why the prosecution doesn't seem to go back to their witnesses for any clarification after the defence cross examination. They instead keep leaving the defence with the last word.

I have feeling that Gerard didn't ask many people back to his house. It was actually a fairly basic house and rented, I think he put in out that he lived at Brookfield (on 10 acres, swimming pool, room for a pony), made it sound a lot better than it was but then used Allison's depression for not being able to ask people to the house socially. In one of the partners statements ? Phil Broom? says something along the lines of "Gerard could never ask people back to his place or take Allison anywhere because of her depression". It really annoys me how her depression is being emphasised and blamed for everything.

Also in one of the partners statements they said Gerard had to resign from Flight Centre because of her depression. Didn't we discuss ages ago that Allison actually had the more senior job, Gerard did something wrong and was asked to leave so Allison felt she had to resign as the right thing to do?

 

[possumheart]

GBC did go to Toowoomba Grammar School as did his sister and brother. Their names - but not GBC - seem to be listed in this publicly available list of students during the school's first 100 years.

http://www.tppsa.org/assets/files/PrepRollList2011.pdf

Olivia and Adam went to Toowoomba Prep. Adam went on to Toowoomba Grammar and Olivia to fairholme. Gerard went from Gabbinbar primary to Grammar. Gabbinbar then was very experimental and perfect for settling OS kids into the Australian curriculum. It had blended classrooms of different grade levels to cater for learning delay and gifted children.

 

[they'll get you]

Can anyone tell that I totally forgot about the trial today and I am taking ages to catch up on the day????

She can't have been knocked unconcious AND put up a fight. I would say she was smothered only thing that explains the scratches and bruises to GBC

Or put up a fight BEFORE being knocked unconscious.

 

[digitup]

Trust me. The network is strong. A large established boys school, boarding boys from out west and offshore. Day boys too. Intergenerational loyalty. The Toowoomba Grammar vs Downlands' football matches are a HUGE deal. Boys emerging from Grammar to Brisbane need each other because they aren't from a Brisbane Private school. They need each other because they are almost, but not quite, top shelf - and hence, look after each other. In past years I have heard of OP fixing. The parents pay top dollar to buy their kids some social standing.
Perhaps I should get verified, but not long to go now ...

I agree,having attended one of these schools. I heard them aptly referred to as 'schools for parents with special needs'.

 

[possumheart]

GBC did go to Toowoomba Grammar School as did his sister and brother. Their names - but not GBC - seem to be listed in this publicly available list of students during the school's first 100 years.

http://www.tppsa.org/assets/files/PrepRollList2011.pdf

That link is Toowoomba Prep, which is primary, but also boards many kids from offshore and out west. You would be amazed at how young these boarders can be.

Gerard went to Gabbinbar State school rather than Prep. It would have eased the transition into Australia, and is free.

(Note: Last I heard, Toowoomba Prep was the most expensive school on the Downs. Toowoomba is a major centre for Health and Education.)

 

[Fluffykins]

IMO Dr Guymer's evidence can't throw light on where Allison (was) rolled on the ground.

The cat's claw, crepe myrtle, fishbone fern, chinese elm, lillypilly and greygum grow in or near most backyards in that suburb especially rented houses. Anyone owning a home and enjoying gardening will probably rip out the cat's claw, fishbone fern and chinese elm as they are weeds in the suburbs really.

I think what the prosecution is proving is that you don't get those plants in your hair by lolling around on the banks of Kholo Creek no matter how long you lie there, you get them from the suburbs.

These plants don't tie Allison to 593 Brookfield Rd.

Zorro, it seems it's possible the plant materials recovered from Allison's body may be identifiable as coming from 593 Brookfield Rd. Dr Guymer will be back tomorrow and (particularly in light of this conversation earlier today), he may just have something up his sleeve:

Hopefully they did DNA testing to prove that all this plant matter didn't just come from those species but from the particular plants in the carport area.

Genuine question. - is that possible ?

Yes. Plant DNA in Forensic Botany

Yep, I think so, unless I got something completely wrong. I'm doing a forensic science course on coursera atm. There, I just learned that individual DNA testing can be done on any species.

Here's hoping Dr Guymer knows something we don't!

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · now

Mr Christ says Allison became more involved in the business in late 2011 "and that actually gave us a lot of comfort". #badenclay

Mr Christ says his impression was Allison was involved in the management of the rental business and the business in general. #badenclay

Mr Christ says during one discussion they asked Gerard to go and confirm something with Allison. #badenclay

Mr Christ: We actually pushed that point that Allison was involved.

Mr Christ says they did not speak directly to Allison at the time of the loan. #badenclay

I bet that ticked him off!

 

[alioop]

Anyone go to court today? I am planning to go tomorrow, do we still need to line up for the overflow room?

I arrived about 10.30 to the official courtroom and was about to poke my head in the door to see if there were any seats and I was immediately approached by a court volunteer lady and some official security looking dude. The lady asked me if I was family or friends and I said neither. She said it was full and she walked me to the overflow room as she was going there anyway. She went in and found me a seat. So obviously there is some seat hierarchy going on since I was there last week. She said she also helps with the families and that both families were very distressed.
Again I was quite happy in the overflow room as you get to see the witnesses and the judge really well in close up and you have the judges view of the lawyers and the court room. Also there is more chatting and vocal reactions going on in the overflow room that make for interesting participation.

 

[KG1]

I have feeling that Gerard didn't ask many people back to his house. It was actually a fairly basic house and rented, I think he put in out that he lived at Brookfield (on 10 acres, swimming pool, room for a pony), made it sound a lot better than it was but then used Allison's depression for not being able to ask people to the house socially. In one of the partners statements ? Phil Broom? says something along the lines of "Gerard could never ask people back to his place or take Allison anywhere because of her depression". It really annoys me how her depression is being emphasised and blamed for everything.

Also in one of the partners statements they said Gerard had to resign from Flight Centre because of her depression. Didn't we discuss ages ago that Allison actually had the more senior job, Gerard did something wrong and was asked to leave so Allison felt she had to resign as the right thing to do?

Ha, Ha. (on 10 acres, swimming pool, room for a pony), sounds like 'Keeping up Appearances', but that is where the similiarity ends.

 

[Fuskier]

I have feeling that Gerard didn't ask many people back to his house. It was actually a fairly basic house and rented, I think he put in out that he lived at Brookfield (on 10 acres, swimming pool, room for a pony), made it sound a lot better than it was but then used Allison's depression for not being able to ask people to the house socially. In one of the partners statements ? Phil Broom? says something along the lines of "Gerard could never ask people back to his place or take Allison anywhere because of her depression". It really annoys me how her depression is being emphasised and blamed for everything.

Also in one of the partners statements they said Gerard had to resign from Flight Centre because of her depression. Didn't we discuss ages ago that Allison actually had the more senior job, Gerard did something wrong and was asked to leave so Allison felt she had to resign as the right thing to do?

I've gained the impression that the in-laws have spread word about Allison having 'depression' over years to many people she would come in contact with. This may have caused some discomfort for her in interpersonal/social situations. IMO this would give potential friends a preconceived idea of her. This is in itself a form of emotional abuse/neglect of her social standing as Gerard's wife and mother of the children. My opinion only.

 

[Zorro]

Can anyone tell that I totally forgot about the trial today and I am taking ages to catch up on the day????

She can't have been knocked unconcious AND put up a fight. I would say she was smothered only thing that explains the scratches and bruises to GBC

Autopsy report page 14 says: 1. Subdural haemorrhage: if this was a true injury it indicates a blunt force impact to the head, probably of a moderate degree of force.

Puts up fight, scratches and hits GBC, knocked unconcious, bleeding from the head, suffocated, put in car. It kinda works.

 

[alioop]

It was a gentlemans agreement. Nothing was signed. So doubt that they can claim much at all???

Lack of a signed agreement doesn't preclude a creditor claiming a debt as long as they can prove it. From what I heard today there were draft agreements drawn up but for some reason that seemed to escape all 3 of GBC's friends they couldn't explain why they didn't sign them. These loans were supposedly paid to the business account and interest payments were initially paid so this is evidence of the loans.

I found it very odd that they did all this due diligence using accounting principles before they handed over their money, and kept a very close eye on the business including approving every single payment from the business for some time. So they were seriously wanting to protect their investments yet they didn't sign agreements. Very odd and unprofessional of these professional men.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

She was "good" when she thought her marriage was going well. She was "quiet" when she was sad that it wasn't.

This is so typical of how a woman feels with a cheating husband. I'm starting to get a bit impatient with the men who are testifying! What, she's supposed to be all happy that her husband is running around with other women? Obviously he wasn't easy to live with - IMO, he was able to silence his own wife forever!

I also feel like it is normal for most people! Unless "quiet" means not getting out of bed, etc., yeah most people aren't always "on." At least not in my experience. :cow:

 

[Champagne4lulu]

Grrr - don't you hate it when the lawyer asks "Can you exclude it 100%?" and of course the expert witness HAS to say "Not completely - but it is unlikely".

Sometimes I just wish an expert witness would have the courage of their convictions and say "Yes I CAN exclude it! On the basis of my 35-year experience as a specialist in this field, an area where you, the lawyer, have NO expertise at all - zero - there was NO overdose in this case. An overdose of sertraline did NOT cause the death. So shove that in your pipe and smoke it!"

FFS!!!! Really defence team, REALLY!?!?? Again questioning every damn expert's years of knowledge?!?

I totally share your frustration here DW. I don't think there has been one expert here that has been 100% positive and adamant in their testimony. It makes everything seem unreliable.

And why did the prosecution not rip the investors to shreds? "...You say you knew the accused and were friends, yet you didn't know he had affairs. You didn't know he had a multitude of other debts he was paying off? That he was hitting up acquaintances in desperation for large sums of money to avoid impending bankruptcy? How good WAS your friendship? Did you every really know him, what else was he keeping from you? Did he crash your car? Why was that do you think? Oh and was he selling your place? Did it need vacuuming and hosing urgently the day ABC went missing?.." Etc.

God I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but speaking in an objective sense, seems the PT are not even trying. WTH is going on here? Seriously!?

I'm not sure I can follow this any more. It's too frustrating.

 

[possumheart]

I've gained the impression that the BC family have spread word about Allison having 'depression' over years to many people she would come in contact with. This may have caused some discomfort for her in interpersonal/social situations. IMO this would give potential friends a preconceived idea of her. This is in itself a form of emotional abuse/neglect of her social standing as Gerard's wife and mother of the children. My opinion only.

The perfect excuse for Gerred not reaching his full potential. Scapegoat.
MY OPINION ONLY

 

[DunnoZo]

What if she ran out of the house in frustration and went 500 metres closer to Flegg's house. GBC followed and they fought in some other locality where those plants prevailed (and they are very common plants). The children heard nothing but Flegg did?

I live locally and drive these streets everyday. I've been studying the maps and though BF's house is not far away, imo it would be too far from the BC 's house to be able to hear a scream clearly from that distance. However, by the look of the land, BF's house sits high on a rolling hill which would distantly overlook the show ground(lower in the valley) I could imagine sound might travel a fair way if the wind is right, and a scream could have been heard from there. Did he say it was distant? close? Why wasn't he asked?

I am still curious as to why GBC called the groundsman around noon, between chats with police & his lawyer. Maybe they fought at the show ground (was her car mentioned seen there? ) and now the groundsman has a new phone and ....
all imo. just :banghead::banghead:

and I'm a gardener and very rarely get plants stuck in my hair.
I'm frustrated. although everything points to GBC I need to see a solid link.

 

[Snails]

Toowoomba Grammar School.

Yes - he was a few years below me when I was boarding at a "sister school" in Toowoomba. Close call. Phew!

 

[enthralled]

Had forgotten this. Can't imagine what the lesser candidates must be like.

Quoting from the above article:

Gerard was once favoured in the LNP ranks as a future member of parliament, touted by at least one federal MP as the "best candidate" in the Moggill electorate for the 2004 state election.

"I thought he was definitely a future state government minister," said former LNP member and federal Ryan MP Michael Johnson. "He has a very strong pro-business background and that is the DNA of the Liberal Party."

the common DNA associated with both parties appears to be lying.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

My first thought is he was growing it to see if it is the same variety found in the hair.

I was imagining him being a bit of a plant geek and thinking, "Ooh a crepe myrtle from Brookfield in Brisbane. Haven't got one of those in my collection"

And now I see I'm not the only one who thought that, lol.