The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

[Brightbird]

I can't answer completely, but i know many antidepressants have suicidal ideation as a side effect, in particular when coming off them. Some drugs need to be carefully withdrawn from your body or you get nasty side-effects including suicide. It's why they say don't just stop taking them. A lot of people have taken antidepressants then felt better so stopped, only to kill themselves.

***note this is only from my own reading and i am not a healthcare professional***

ETA: However I am a professional psych patient LOL

I don't think it's established that suicidal ideation is a side-effect of anti-depressants. Drug companies and insurers freak out over observations of these things in people who take them, so they are pretty much obliged to report it as a possibility even it's a rare event. There is a theory that some people feel more energised before the depression lifts, and that increases the risk for suicide. Also, they can't prove that the anti-depressants just aren't working and the suicide/ideation would have happened anyway. I've never heard that suicide is a side-effect of stopping them. But it stands to reason that if the depression returns then so might suicidal thoughts, especially if it returns quite dramatically. It's all still very speculative. Also not a health professional, but have studied clinical psychology post-grad and taken anti-depressants.

 

[catswhiskers]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 26m

Gerard says yes, there were "a number" of people he went to for sex "and we've talked about some of them". #badenclay

Wait, what? Some being Toni, Jacqui, and Michelle, so who else was there? If those 3 were all there were, wouldn't he have said "we've talked about all of them"..????

If he was being truthful (there's still a chance he couldn't resist hinting that there were others to promote his big man about town image), then I imagine there would have been a few middle aged women about town collectively gulping while waiting to see if he was about to drop them into his pile of you know what.

 

[Amee]

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 42s

Dr Schramm says maternal attachment would count against suicide risk. #badenclay

Caroline Overington ‏@overingtonc 41s

And he agrees that his remarks about suicide are general in nature, not specific to Allison #badenclay

 

[Amee]

essa Scott ‏@TessaScott9 1m

Dr Schramm says his comments are general only, not specifically about Allison #badenclay @9NewsBrisbane

 

[silverau]

I think Dr Robertson is just a waste of Tax payers money !

I don't think so,,he's effectively helping the prosecution! Everybody shoots a goal!

(except for GBC....lol)

 

[Amee]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 45s

Boyle says a mother's attachment can protect against suicide. Dr Schramm agrees, but says can never rule it out #badenclay

Sarah Elks ‏@sarahelks 37s

Maternal attachment "is something that goes against the argument that she (Allison) was suicidal" #badenclay

 

[Amee]

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 54s

Dr Schramm says if there was no triggering event, that would also count against risk of suicide. #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 45s

Dr Schramm agrees that a person making short and long terms plans would also be at lower risk of suicide. #badenclay

 

[Amee]

12:56pm: Mr Byrne asked Dr Schramm to comment how often suicide was "unexpected".

"It's not uncommon that suicide, unfortunately, is a surprise," Dr Schramm said.

"It is also the case that very often, and unfortunately, suicide is a surprise and that even in retrospect it has been impossible to predict."

12:53pm: Defence counsel Michael Byrne QC has asked Dr Schramm to comment on the nature of suicide.

Dr Schramm said more than half of people who committed suicide did not leave a note.

He recalled a well-respected study on suicide which he said found that "most people who took their lives did not leave a suicide note".

"One-tenth to one-third do not leave notes," Dr Schramm said.

Mr Baden-Clay has repeatedly pointed to his wife's history with depression to suggest she took her own life.

Anyone needing support can contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Mensline on 1300 789 978.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...y-14-week-4-20140702-3b76w.html#ixzz36HBdDgsA

 

[Trooper]

I wonder if Schramm has a theory about people who suicide out of deep unhappiness with their partner, but also leave that partner the beneficiary of their insurance policies...



be a small book of references in that event..

 

[Freya1977]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 40s
Gerard says yes, there were "a number" of people he went to for sex "and we've talked about some of them". #badenclay

He's big-noting himself again.

Yes Gerard, you were a prize catch. "some of them"? So he cheated on his wife with more than the 3 discussed? Wow, what a charmer.

 

[Consider]

12:44pm: Psychiatrist Dr Mark Schramm has been called to the witness box.

He reviewed Mrs Baden-Clay's medical records upon the request of the defence team. Dr Schramm chiefly works within the Queensland prison system but also has a private practice at Toowong.

His report was reviewed by Professor Diego De Leo, a suicidologist, based at Griffith University.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...y-14-week-4-20140702-3b76w.html#ixzz36H8uls00

suicidologist !

I've been living under a rock

 

[DrWatson]

Come on Danny-boy:

"Didn't you just testify that just because someone has a degree and is an expert, doesn't mean that they know anything?"

 

[Amee]

Caroline Overington ‏@overingtonc 45s

People can make either short or long term plans - and still go on to commit suicide #badenclay

 

[Amee]

Mr Baden-Clay has repeatedly pointed to his wife's history with depression to suggest she took her own life.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...y-14-week-4-20140702-3b76w.html#ixzz36HC02mnE

 

[Lu-Lu]

Dr Schramm says it is foolish to be completely confident that someone with a history of depression isn't going to take their life.#badenclay


It is foolish to be completely confident that someone with an extremely dire financial situation, where their wife's life insurance policies are able to cover debts, that they wouldn't take their wife's life. :drumroll:

 

[Trooper]

He's big-noting himself again.

Yes Gerard, you were a prize catch. "some of them"? So he cheated on his wife with more than the 3 discussed? Wow, what a charmer.

my god, I hope that part that Gerald attested to that Alison had an STD check is correct..

oddly, he didn't say that HE had had one done...

 

[Mountain Misst]

:loveyou:

Danny Boy(le)'s turning the defence's psychiatrist into a prosecution witness...

 

[Amee]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 54s

Allison seemed to put her hand up when she needed to help - Dr Schramm #badenclay

Caroline Overington ‏@overingtonc 44s

He agrees that depression can worsen in pregnancy #badenclay

 

[Amee]

12:59pm: Dr Schramm has been cross-examined by Crown prosecutor Danny Boyle.

He conceded a woman's "maternal instinct" would be considered a factor that would prevent suicide.

He also conceded a person making "short and long term plans for the future" would also be considered a prevention factor.

Mr Boyle asked Dr Schramm about suicide in people who had been proactive in seeking help for depression and anxiety.

"Allison seemed to be a person who put her hand up and sought help," Dr Schramm said.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...y-14-week-4-20140702-3b76w.html#ixzz36HCOyXAV

 

[itsthevibe]

Putting aside my views about GBC, listening to Schramm, he doesn't seem objective to me. Every question being asked by Danny Boyle to counter ideas of suicide is answered to bring things back to not ruling out suicide. There's a fine line between not being led, and leaning in one direction.