The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 7th July - Trial Day 15

Discussion in 'Allison Baden-Clay of Australia' started by marlywings, Jun 3, 2014.

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  1. alioop

    alioop Verified Attorney (AU)

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    The defence may as well also have said to the jury, "it is also open to you than an alien space space hovered about the house and teleported Allison up into the ship, then it moved to Kholo bridge and teleported her onto the creek bank. Now you may reject that but it is open to you to consider"
     
  2. marlywings

    marlywings Former Member

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    Sure is...there's little gremlins all over the place in auto save...lol.
     
  3. alioop

    alioop Verified Attorney (AU)

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    Hi Fly, it would be expected that the jury will take a couple of days at the very least, likely more ( Rolf Harris jury took 8 days) so everyone would go home/ back to their legal offices/ work etc. Then when the jury are ready they tell the bailiff who notifies the judge and lawyers. Someone would also let the media know. A time is then made for the court to resume and everyone then comes back to court.
     
  4. JK673

    JK673 New Member

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    That sounds like a Trooper comment lol
     
  5. alioop

    alioop Verified Attorney (AU)

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    I agree. I am not usually so witty! I am tired and a bit over it I think. Best I go to bed.
     
  6. Freya1977

    Freya1977 Well-Known Member

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    I so wish they could live stream at least the verdict :(

    I don't see why not, if it's open to the public anyway.
     
  7. Susan12

    Susan12 Active Member

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    If I was the jury and knew the distance involved and the nature of the route, I would find that utterly implausible. I hope the jury get that. *Hoping*

    The defence want to have the jury believe all those circumstancal evidences from the prosecution are just coincidences that happened to line up together and dont mean anything. Yet they want up the jury to believe all the items in their scenario above could line up to have that result in her death, not even just an injury but death, and provide a plausible alternative to seriously consider. To me that's even more implausible and shows how there really is no better more likely explanation.
     
  8. Freya1977

    Freya1977 Well-Known Member

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    Ali have the jury been allowed to discuss the case together up to this point, or is that only allowed during deliberations?

    Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk
     
  9. KG1

    KG1 Registered user

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    I so hope so Trooper. Never before have I read where a victim was so maligned. It must be horrific for those who love Allison, especially her parents and siblings as they knew the real Allison - a very strong, loving/lovable, decent, moral, honest, caring human being. It is making me very upset and angry.
     
  10. Susan12

    Susan12 Active Member

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    Does that take into account hills? There are hills on that route and no walking paths or tracks.
     
  11. KG1

    KG1 Registered user

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    I bet the BCs are all feeling very smug at the moment. Often juries go the other way if a victim is fiercely demonized. which is what is appearing here IMO. He is trying too hard and if the jury has any nous, they will see through this.
     
  12. Susan12

    Susan12 Active Member

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    "Dr Schramm said the medication peaked at around 6 to 8 hours, roughly the time when she went to the hairdressers, Mr Byrne said."

    If the medication peaked at the hairdressers then wouldn't her disorientation and side effects have been then and not after 1:38am when she apparently put the phone on the charger and went on a walk and got disorientated according to their theory? If she connected the phone that would be the earliest time she went walking. Sounds like based on that peak she would have been clear minded well before she got to that bridge. They cannot have it both ways. She can't have peaked at the hairdresser then peaked on a walk. Just rubbish.
     
  13. KG1

    KG1 Registered user

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    Totally agree. And Olivia started it all with the very first time she opened her mouth and told the world that Allison suffered from depression. Then proceeded to say how wonderful Allison was and 'we want her returned'. Depression was the go right from the commencement and one now wonders of planning, pre or post murder?
     
  14. Seeking

    Seeking New Member

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    Thanks for all the tweets and updates today. One question that I have is probably for Alioop. I have limited experience with courts (very grateful for that), so
    I may just be naive. My understanding is that everyone needs to speak the truth in court. Of course the jury will need to decide whether defendants and witnesses are speaking the truth or not and of course unfortunately lies will sometimes be told under oath. The extension of this understanding would be that a defense barrister would need to only present what he knows to be truth too. Of course if his or her client has told them a lie they will still present that assuming that it is true. That makes sense to me. Unless told otherwise the defense barrister at least outwardly believes their client. Of course inwardly there is always the chance that they have a different personal opinion. What I find to be confusing is when evidence is presented to the jury as fact when it seems to be already proven that it is not. I know the job of the defense barrister is to create doubt, but it can't be ethical to misrepresent things to the jury. Examples where this seemed to be happening today with the defense summary were when he suggested that Alison could have been shifted to the spot she was found in through tidal movements where I thought that all of the reports indicated that she was in the position she was found in very soon after her death. Another example was when he said that Alison could have jumped, but this seems to be in contrast to her body being found under the bridge with no broken bones. Of course I have not sat in the court and heard all the evidence and I am not an expert. In the interests of justice shouldn't known truthful facts be left as known truthful facts. It seems unfair and unethical to create confusion about these type of facts for the jury. I can understand creating doubt about things like who put the phone on the charger at 1:48am, whether the blood in the back of the Captiva was the result of Alison being transported to Kholo in the car or not, and even how she died. I also thought that there was evidence that she didn't drown and so I wondered why that come up again too. My other question is about how people speak of a victim in a court case. In the very limited court cases I have supported people through and therefore witnessed, the legal people always gave me the idea that alleged victim's need to be spoken to and about in respectful and non condemnatory ways, even if a defendant believed that an alleged victim was lying and had character flaws. In this case Alison is a true victim. There is no question about whether or not she has experienced an injustice, nor is there a question about whether she is telling the truth or not, as she lost her life and can't "speak" to defend herself. Again, I am not in the courtroom, and have only followed the case from afar, but the impression I got was that at times Alison was portrayed very negatively...... yet she is the victim. This confused me as to why this was allowed, as it seemed (from a distance) in some ways to be disrespectful. Alioop, can you please explain. It might be that I live in a different part of Australia and there are different rules and expectations about how defense teams speak about victims. I don't know. These are just my observations and questions from a distance as we wait for justice for this beautiful lady and her family.
     
  15. Susan12

    Susan12 Active Member

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    Yep and same goes for Moggill Rd which would have to be the main stretch although it carries more traffic so even more chance of being seen.
     
  16. Total

    Total New Member

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    Thank you so much Anemone for describing for us some of the reality of the court room. You did so in a way that reminds me very much of why I am still so attached to seeing justice done for Allison, and what drew me in the first place. Not much seems to have changed in the ensuing years. The Dickies' genuine humility and grace contrast (and contrasted right from the beginning) with the self righteous and downright cold and cruel blame game of the BC gang. This contrast none more evident than in the approach taken by the defence and prosecution respectively. I am so thankful that GBCs ego couldn't go past an appearance on the stand. This means that the vicious misogynistic words of Byrne (on instructions from his clients), will not be the last thing the jury will have ringing in their ears, before the Judge's final words. It will be the words of Fuller and/or Boyle which, I have no doubt after today's performance, will counter and lift the attempt to cloud and throw a veil over Allison's memory and gentle and kind brilliance.
     
  17. Susan12

    Susan12 Active Member

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    What are you saying? You think the jury will aquit? Based on Byrne's talk or their expressions?

    It's good they have to go through all the evidence again before voting,
     
  18. Fuskier

    Fuskier Well-Known Member

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    Well said brizzymum. Exactly, Allison was raising three dependent primary school aged children, the demands of their daily care needs,
    after school activities, friends, family relationships, homework tasks, etc. IMO one needs to be organised to achieve these daily tasks: [breakfast, school lunches, morning bathroom routine & personal grooming, clean clothing, socks, uniforms, shoes, etc for each child; after school activities, friends, homework tasks for each child; behavior/discipline management, special TLC when needed; getting dinner on the table each evening within good diet guidelines; bedtime bathroom routines, etc]. Then attend to her own personal health & care needs, clean clothing, shoes, etc all ready for the next days demands. Then get up each day and do it all over again. This is the demands of raising three healthy, educated, socially well adjusted children. children. In addition, a mother who works part-time on top of all of this faces extra demands on her limited time and needs to be very organised to achieve these tasks. Allison worked in addition to her parenting tasks e.g. she taught ballet, sold health products, attended the gym for personal health & fitness, as well as worked at the C21 Real Estate agency without pay. Further, she qualified in resilience training and ran classes for children; she was training with Pathways and also undertook a Real Estate training with a friend from the school; in addition she contributed to the school via tuck shop duty and stalls, etc. This is a very full load indeed.

    IMO Allison experienced the full-on demands of raising three dependent primary school aged children coupled with part-time work, education, training, making time for friends and family relationships. It appears that she did this without the emotional support of her husband who was often absent on his trysts 4 nights per week. Allison's depression was certainly managed in order for her to 'juggle' all these demands. It seems she was an organised person who was well liked, in her own right, by many others. And all done with love and care for her children and others, not the rigidity of military precision and emotional stunting.

    I agree that some on the DT seem out of touch with the pressures facing mothers today and the 'juggling' required to meet multiple demands at a higher standards than in times gone by. We live in a complex society where women also contribute to the family income, but are still predominantly responsible for organizing the children and the home. Sometimes this needs to be spelled out for those 'out of touch' with the pressures on young mothers today. We have witnessed the defense of an alleged murderer at Allison's expense, by a one-sided degradation of her coping ability. This is very uncomfortable. :furious:

    From all accounts of her treating clinicians, her depression was well managed. As one poster aptly said earlier, treating depression is similar to treating heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, hypothyroidism etc that once therapeutic doses of the prescribed medication works, the condition becomes well managed and the patient able to conduct a normal daily routine.

    IMO Allison's reputation and character have been violated all over again - even in death. My opinion only.
     
  19. ThaiBali

    ThaiBali Well-Known Member

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    Mr Byrne will continue (briefly) tomorrow. A ploy to allow the Jurors to sleep on his disgraceful defense. I so hope the Jury found it as we do.
     
  20. Susan12

    Susan12 Active Member

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    Haha well done you made me laugh!
     
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