The December 23 party

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by eileenhawkeye, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,527
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    icedtea4me,
    Bashing her with what?

    So like Patsy tied the knots and told John to murder his own daughter? Sounds a bit alike a complicated Greek drama?

    Nobody can say your scenario never happened, but it does not seem to be matched up with the forensic evidence, e.g. where is JR's touch-dna on JonBenet's underwear, person, etc?

    Patsy knew something was going on between JonBenet and Burke with all their bedroom sharing, do you reckon she repressed this too?

    Patsy whacked JonBenet for wetting the bed.
    Patsy whacked JonBenet for innapropriate relations with John.
    Burke whacked JonBenet because she stole some of his pineapple.

    Anyone see the pattern here? Its explanation by visual cartoon dynamics, easy on the brain.

    .
     
    Tadpole12 likes this.


  2. proust20

    proust20 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The autopsy revealed that JB had experienced chronic sexual abuse. Therefore, by the night that she was killed, she had already been the victim of numerous crimes. Separating those previous transgressions from the murder seems unwise. This sexual aspect provides a likely motive. Certainly, it is a better one than the now notorious snatched pineapple.

    This is not to say that the abuser(s) is guilty of the murder. However, it is far too coincidental that sexual abuse of JB became part of the staging. How many could have known of the abuse?

    BTW, while we all may discuss different aspects of the staging, it often goes unremarked that there are no photos of the staged scene upon which JR 'stumbled' in the WC. The precise mise-en-scene shall never be known. This does raise the question of why the Rs would go to all the trouble of making things so overly complicated and confusing, only to have no one be able to observe the resulting theatrical tableau.

    The essence of crime is secrecy. It ought not surprise that various Rs have shown a talent to evade and prevaricate.
     
  3. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,716
    Likes Received:
    11,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Time limitations?, plan C?
    Plan B, impossibility of flight out of town.
     
  4. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Patsy aka Miss America who had no wind left in her sails didn't want to face that head on. I would suspect that there was a part of her that she wasn't consciously aware of who was angry at and jealous of JonBenet. She communicated in her 1996 Xmas letter about an "outrageous birthday [Xmas] bash" and on Xmas Eve night she admitted in DoI to seeing the My Twinn doll lying in its box as JonBenet lying in a coffin.

    I give JonBenet more credit than that. She knew what her father was doing to her was wrong. Her question to the Ramsey gardener Brian Scott "Do roses [people who love you] know their thorns [bad actions] can hurt you?" is quite profound.

    Seldom =/= never.

    During The ENQUIRER interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects the notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

    She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night."

    Patsy stated that because her mother slept in JonBenet’s room, there’s no way John could’ve been sexually molesting JonBenet. Nedra was not there the night of 25 Dec 96.

    John: “We both know what needs to be done, but you’ve got to help me do it.”

    Or it could've gone another way.

    Patsy's threat to John in the note: Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded.

    John knows that if they take her to the hospital, they're going to ask questions for which he knows he cannot provide innocent answers.
     
    DeDee, proust20 and Tadpole12 like this.
  5. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    93
    icedtea4me,
    Very interesting concept. I was researching last night and found this on strangulation and choking of a child by a family member. Eye opening to say the least!
    http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/605/73-87.pdf
     
    Tadpole12 likes this.
  6. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Whatever she could grab that was the closest.


    John talking about the murderer [perhaps himself in the third person] in DoI, pg 368: Did his own lusts push him into unexpected actions that left him feeling he had no choice but to kill JonBenet?

    The underwear she wore to the Whites' is missing.

    No, as there would be no reason for her to repress Burke, a prepubescent boy, sleeping in JonBenet's other twin bed when his room got too cold nor when JonBenet slept in Burke's other twin bed because that's where she fell asleep.

    Are you claiming that JonBenet bashed herself on the head?
     
    proust20 and Tadpole12 like this.
  7. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83

    From pg 7 of the autopsy report-

    This area of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet07.gif

    So, the item with which she was struck had to be at least 8 inches long and up to 1 3/4 inches wide.
     
  8. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,716
    Likes Received:
    11,703
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Isn't the 8" contusion related to the linear fracture
    rather than the length of the item?
     
    otg and DeDee like this.
  9. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    845
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Tadpole,
    Yep.
     
    Tadpole12 likes this.
  10. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    A contusion that is 8 inches in length isn't going to come from the surface of an object that is 6 inches in length.
     
    Tadpole12 likes this.
  11. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I did not realize JonBenet had a set of size 6 Days of the Week undies nor can I find it in Patsy's interviews. According to PR, JonBenet had access to the size 12-14 undies because Patsy placed the size 12s in JBs drawer even though only size 4-6 were discovered in her drawer by LE.

    *The interview is inserted in quotes due to the length of the reply.

    Patsy Ramsey interview 28, 2000

     
    Tadpole12 likes this.
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,527
    Likes Received:
    2,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    DeDee,
    Patsy tells you in her opening sentence that she purchased Bloomingdale's underwear for JonBenet.

    JonBenet selects the Bloomingdale's underwear
    Patsy states she purchased Bloomingdale's just for JonBenet
    So Patsy says she purchased Bloomingdale's underwear for JonBenet with the rest being third party gifts.

    Patsy also states she purchased Bloomingdale's for her niece
    Summarising:

    So JonBenet selects a package of Bloomingdale's underwear which Patsy says she subsequently purchased.

    And Patsy then selects a package of size-12 Bloomingdale's underwear for her niece Jenny Davis.

    So if JonBenet had selected a package of size-12 underwear in the store there would no need for JonBenet to request the package that Patsy purchased for her niece Jenny Davis, i.e. size-12, as JonBenet already owned a set!

    Also this would mean there should be two sets of Bloomingdale's size-12 in JonBenet's underwear drawer, as Patsy states she put Jenny's set in the drawer for JonBenet!
    Atlanta 2000 Patsy Interview, Excerpt
    So no size-12 underwear was found, meaning either 13 or 6 pairs of Bloomingdale's underwear have gone missing overnight?

    So a common sense interpretation of Patsy's description of her NY trip to Bloomingdale's is that JonBenet selected an age appropriate set of Bloomingdale's underwear for herself, i.e. size-6 which formed part of the collection found in her underwear drawer by BPD.

    And that Patsy purchased a set of Bloomingdale's size-12 for her niece which she claims she put in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

    So as per above, nowhere does Patsy state she purchased size-12 underwear for JonBenet!

    Just because Patsy says she placed the size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer does not mean it is a truthful statement.

    Hopefully this allows you to decide that Patsy purchased Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear for JonBenet?

    Also BPD have never released any details regarding the brand or the Days Of The Week relating to the 15 pairs of underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer by the police.

    Suggesting a pair missing might just be Bloomingdale's Wednesday, Size-6?

    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  13. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    UK Guy,

    Well, blow my mind.

    No. There was only the one package of size 12s purchased on the NYC trip in Nov. 1995 at Macy's Dept Store. It was meant to be part of a gift shipped to Jenny who was 11 or 12yo, att. PR did not buy any for JBR because the store was out of her size. PR had all of those NYC gifts wrapped, including the ones from Swartz & Co., then shipped to her Colorado home.

    My theory is the DOTW panties for Jenny were wrapped and shipped by Macy's, then placed in the wine cellar along with BRs legos for his birthday, as well as, any other possible gifts Patsy stored in the hell hole cellar awaiting Christmas.

    We know BR tore the wrapping paper away from the legos.

    Someone tore open the package of DOTW undies meant for Jenny and placed the brand new Wednesday pair onto JonBenet when redressing her in the long john's after the murder. (Better than being found not alive wearing skid marked panties.)

    That's the reason the size 12-14 undies she wore at death have unknown DNA on them. They'd never been washed because they'd never been worn until time of death.

    It's inexplicable that LE did not gather this new, but opened, package of size 12-14 DOTW undies during their collection of evidence but the Rs eventually handed the remainder of the package to their lawyers much later while residing in Atlanta.

    The 15 pair of undies marked into evidence from JBRs drawer all had skid marks and were either size 4 or size 6. There were never new size 6 DOTW undies for JBR.
     
  14. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    132
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The 8” by 1.75” contusion described in the AR is bruising on the brain itself. The bludgeon didn't make direct contact with the brain because it was protected by the skull (except where the depressed fracture was located). The brain was bruised from the movement of the skull when the two portions separated along the linear fracture and moved outward from the center. That movement disrupted the capillaries between the brain and the meninges.

    If you read the entire area around the section quoted, it makes a little more sense:

    "There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. On the right cerebral hemisphere underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is an extensive linear area of purple contusion extending from the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect of the parietal region and into the occipital area. This area of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches."

    Later after the brain was cut into slices for internal examination (“Multiple coronal sections of the cerebral hemispheres,...”), he describes this contusion:

    "The areas of previously described contusion are characterized by purple linear streak-like discolorations of the gray matter perpendicular to the surface of the cerebral cortex. These extend approximately 5mm into the cerebral cortex."

    If anyone has trouble understanding the medicalese in the AR (I did), you might find the following post helpful:

    JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon
     
    DeDee likes this.
  15. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    432
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Thank you, but I already knew the contusion mentioned in the autopsy report was on the brain due to the pressure on the skull.
     
  16. DeDee

    DeDee Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    1,785
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, Tadpole, plus a contusion could be thicker, longer or wider than the brain exposed at the fracture line(s) and may be located in other traumatized areas, as well. However, the skin on top of JonBenet's tiny head did not break. Her thick hair, and maybe the pony tail holder(s), prevented skin breakage from occurring by offering some protection, thankfully.

    O/T from the Dec 23 party to insert the head injuries. Strong content warning. Scroll n Roll.

    6yo JBR had a comminuted zig zag skull fracture because the fracture was located over several areas of her small skull that included her occipital portion which is the hardest skull bone.

    The large oval-shaped missing section of bone from the surface of JonBenet's skull was directly impacted by the forceful contact with the blunt weapon.

    That area's where the chunk of bone is broken away from her skull. It was caused by the pressure intentionally applied to the force of a blunt object and the amount, or area, of direct contact with her small head.

    This was a swift deadly event. A homicide. Boom. And, done.

    JonBenet's comminuted fracture reaches from the occipital to the posteriorparietal region or almost the entire linear length from the front of her tiny head to the base of her petite neck.

    Blunt force trauma to skull with various instruments
    "The effect of blunt force by commonly found objects onto the skull is largely dependent on the amount of force applied to the area, contact surface area of the object to the skull and the amount of absolute pressure transferred from the object to the skull. High pressure impact would result in comminuted fractures which in turn suggests severe trauma to the brain."
    http://www.mjpath.org.my/2014/v36n1/blunt-force-trauma-to-skull.pdf

    ...

    Material the hideous weapon's made from will cause certain impact sites. IE., a wooden weapon such as a Balabushka pool cue would absorb some of the force because wood gives a little, against the stretch of the skin; whereas, a hammer, a steel hammer has no give; think of an intentional impact on a bald head.

    The skull would fracture, but only crush the area of direct contact with the hammer (weapon), with the length of the fracture, depending upon the amount of mighty force used.

    JonBenet may have seen the person, as it seems, the killer was standing or, more likely, straddled or kneeling straight over her, possibly face to face, following the horrendous strangulation by garrote. The blow's position is based on the location of the floating chunk of skull where the weapon made contact with the surface of her skin. I think she screamed because she likely lived an hour between the two deadly assaults.

    This was a serious dead center blow created by using a very powerful force with a blunt object; one that may have a bit of give, since, given the extreme force applied, there's no skin breakage.

    The contusion(s), or really badly bruised area, encompasses the impacted brain matter and interrupted blood supply due to the massive trauma. Copious CCs.

    This type of injury is intentional.
    .
     
  17. PremeditatedCrime

    PremeditatedCrime Active Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Any theory that Patsy or Burke killed JB by (accidentally or on purpose) hitting her on the head are not medically sound. The little girl was already dead when she was struck on the head, which is why there was almost zero internal bleeding.

    Please also keep in mind that this was a premeditated crime. What were the two motives:

    1) to silence JB so that she could not report PRIOR sexual abuse, including what may have occurred on December 23, 1996. Also, keep in mind that fibers from John Andrew's EA device were found on JB's bed.

    Would not surprise me if Burke was also sexually abused. However, JB was articulate, intelligent and outspoken. If she had reported previous sexual abuse, she would be taken seriously. Burke (who may have been autistic) would be taken less seriously.

    2) to frame or at least cast suspicion on Patsy.

    Who had these two motives? Either John or John Andrew. John Andrew would want to get rid of Patsy, so that his father would reunite with his mother. This is NOT because he cares that his parents get back together, but due to his father's WEALTH.

    Please do not make the mistake of considering this an accident. It was premeditated murder.

    Common sense: A routine "sexual predator" (or organized crime, considering John's business had dubious connections and dealings) would have far more interest in framing the father, than in framing the mother.
     
  18. PremeditatedCrime

    PremeditatedCrime Active Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    43

    I do understand that the head injury may not have external bleeding, but wouldn't there be massive internal bleeding? In other words, the little girl was already dead when she received the head injury.

    Also, I consider this to be a premeditated crime. One of the motives is to frame or at least cast suspicion on Patsy. Who wants to frame Patsy? Either John or John Andrew.
     
  19. PremeditatedCrime

    PremeditatedCrime Active Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Hello, I think you need to look at motive. And also to remember that this was a premeditated crime. (Also the Burke and Patsy theories are not medically sound. We know that JB was already dead when she received the head injury, which is why there was almost zero internal bleeding.)

    So given that this was a premeditated crime, as a woman, I do not want to give John or John Andrew (at least one is a sexual abuser) a free pass, and blame Patsy or Burke. It's also worth nothing that if Patsy or Burke had accidentally killed JB (which is not medically sound), the family could have claimed that the little girl fell and hit her head.

    It's important to remember that John and John Andrew WANT us to believe that Patsy and Burke committed the crime, which is has been not possible due to medical evidence.

    So, since it was a premeditated crime, we must look at motive:

    1) To silence JB so that she could not report PRIOR sexual abuse, including what may have occurred on December 23, 1996. (And fibers from John Andrew's EA device were found in JB's bed; not sure if they were also found in Burke's bed.) The police were called on December 23, 1996. However, the person who opened the door said that the police had been called by mistake.

    JB was intelligent, articulate, and outspoken. Had she reported prior sexual abuse by John or John Andrew, she would be taken very seriously. Had Burke reported prior sexual abuse by John or John Andrew, he would not be taken as seriously. (I believe Burke was autistic.)

    Therefore the MOTIVE to silence JB so that she could not report PRIOR sexual abuse is stronger than any MOTIVE to silence Burke.

    2) To frame Patsy, or at least to discredit her. Obviously a judge or jury would not convict Patsy, but she was discredited and disgraced. People were willing to blame Patsy, claim that she killed JB by accident, and yet give John or John Andrew (at least one of whom is a sexual abuser) a free pass. Talk about sexism and bias.

    There was an obvious MOTIVE to frame Patsy: ransom note included some of her expressions and choice of words. Also Patsy's notepad and writing pen were used. Patsy's paintbrush was actually used to strangle JB. (JB died from strangulation, and was already dead when she received the head injury). Now, if Patsy herself had strangled JB (and we know that she did not do this), she would have the intelligence to hide or throw out the paintbrush. (And would Patsy write a note to incriminate herself? She was an intelligent woman.)

    Patsy's items that were used: paintbrush, notepad, writing pen. Plus the ransom note cast suspicion on Patsy.

    What motive would John Andrew have to frame or at least cast suspicion on Patsy? He would want his father to reunite with his mother, NOT because he cared if his parents got back together, BUT due to John's WEALTH.

    Therefore, John Andrew would have the above two motives. Remember that John Andrew's suitcase was found near JB's body. The suitcase contained a semen-encrusted blanket (semen belonged to John Andrew), a children's book called Dr. Seuss, and some other items. So, why was the suitcase near JB's body? Because someone (likely John the father) had every intention of disposing of JB's body, but also of disposing of the incriminating suitcase.

    As previously mentioned, fibers from John Andrew's EA device were found on JB's bed.

    Lastly, there has been some suspicion that JB told Melinda (her older half-sister) about the sexual abuse. However, I like to think that Melinda would have done the right thing, and reported this to police.

    I believe that John Andrew also had a key to the house.

    You need to also ask why John the father was not framed for the crime - only Patsy the mother!

    And let's use common sense: a routine "sexual predator" would be more interested in framing the father than the mother!
     
  20. PremeditatedCrime

    PremeditatedCrime Active Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Firstly, we must understand that this was a premeditated murder. There seems to be two motives. 1) to silence JB so that she cannot report PRIOR sexual abuse; and 2) to frame or at least cast suspicion on Patsy.

    A routine "sexual predator" would be more interested in framing the father, than in framing the mother.

    Secondly, we must understand that JB that the Patsy theory and the Burke theory are not medically sound. Most likely, the little girl was already dead when she received the head injury, since thee was almost zero internal bleeding.

    Thirdly, had Patsy or Burke killed JB by accident by striking her on the head, the family could claim that the little girl fell and hit her head.

    Fourth, as a woman, I do not want to give John or John Andrew a few pass (as least one of these men is a sexual abuser), and blame Patsy or Burke. I also consider the Patsy theory to be biased and sexist.

    So, who has these two motives? John and John Andrew!
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice