The Forensics is what gives the JIDI his power

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by voynich, Sep 21, 2009.

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How much time separates the head blow from the strangulation

  1. less than 10 minutes

    44.4%
  2. equal to more more than 10 minutes

    55.6%
  1. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    "The Science will decide your fate"


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukbTFgQ4jxs"]YouTube - Obi Wan talking to Luke Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope[/ame]

    You must learn the ways of Forensics, if you want to come with me to find this intruder. I need your help, Jonbenet needs your help. The case is getting too old to debate this sort of thing. Learn about Forensics. Of course, RDI you must do what spins right of course.

    What came first the headblow or strangulation? We need to explain

    why very little blood was found in the brain/skull fracture (i.e no hematoma)
    with Petechiae Evidence and absence of deep neck scratches.

    as Drs. Michael Doberson and Cyril Wecht "If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."


    "Adams County Coroner Mike Dobersen said he reviewed the autopsy photographs and thinks there would have been much more internal bleeding inside the brain if JonBenét had been struck first and strangled later."


    On the other hand, Ronald Wright, MD "director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News." RMN stated: "The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said. "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled," said Wright. 'That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.


    The simplest forensic explanation is that JB was first wacked hard with a blunt instrument, rendered unconscious from the blow. Obviously the crack in her skull would result in rapid internal bleeding. The Perp then immediately, within minutes, started the strangulation, cutting of blood supply to her brain, resulting in Petechiae Evidence. Since she was unconscious she could not remove the ligature hence scratches.

    This scenario strongly disfavors the RDI explanation, that PR struck JB in a rage attack, knocking her unconscious, then waiting 20-60 minutes along w/JR to decide to stage the CS w/strangulation. It also strong disfavors the other RDI explanation, that JR was playing sex games, and as soon as she was garrotted and choked, (which would result in deep stratches) and then blow to her head.

    Given that the strangulation occurred just minutes after the head blow, only the IDI explanation makes sense, that an INTRUDER struck a hard blow to JB then immediately (within seconds) started the strangulation.
    I have no doubt if these scenarios were simulated w/animals, that this explanation would be correct. In any RDI scenario, there is some time stretching into 10's of minutes between the initial traumatic event to the decision to stage, and then getting the materials and presence of mind to do so.

    RDI Spin Team, tell me something, do you agree that Occam's razor, the simplest explanation for the forensics was that JB was strangled within seconds of the head blow, and if so, that this meant the perp had the cord and garrote paint brush with him, and immediately set off to work strangulating her? In the RDI speculation, there had to be some time from the headblow to strangulation for the R's to decide they wish to stage, during which a blood clot would form where her skull fractured, and she would be very near death if not dead, by the time they start staging. Whether the head blow came first or strangulation, the RDI requires some time for the R's to think about what they want to do next, inconsistent w/forensic evidence. The forensic evidence is most consistent w/either grave injuries occuring in short order. And strictly speaking from an IDI POV, it's not necessarily "staging".


    Holism: head blow + immediate strangulation, forensic linguistics which rules out R's as author, DNA, cord fibers, missing items (paintbrush stick, cord, tape) plus severity of JB's injuries

    The Holistic picture SD refers to will soon be back in our hands.



    The ability to come up with some kind of RDI spin is insignificant next to the power of Forensics.

    Remember, the Forensics will be with you, always.
     
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  3. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    As far as my RDI theories go, either way works for me. If the head blow comes first, I see it as PDI- rage attack. If the head blow was a reaction to silence her after her chilling scream, I see a JDI or JARDI. I understand what the forensic experts are saying and I don't think there was much time between head bash and strangulation and to be honest, it doesn't really change my mind. It still fits RDI, IMHO. If the vagus nerve was pressed hard enough to cause cardiac arrest, there would still be some blood circulating IF the head blow came right after. For this to be the case, it is a more sinister scenario, because the strangulation may have been deliberate. Let me explain that. IF the strangulation was mean to provide an obvious cause of death, it was staging. If it came first, it was in an of itself a deliberate attack on JB, and I'd have a hard time envisioning it as anything other than a sexual assault, with a violation taking place which caused the scream. Then the scream causes the head blow. To be honest? I can't easily see a parent here. BUT I can see a half-brother. And maybe another participant.
    But I hate that version the most.
     
  4. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    So you're telling me that within 2 minutes after bashing JB's head in, the Rs decide together to strangle JB, w/o BR knowing anything, they were able to locate the items they need, asemble it, tie the complex slip knot, and strangle their daughter, and that this is more likely than an intruder bashing then immediately strangling JB? :banghead:

    In terms of time, it doesn't matter which comes first, headblow or strangulation, it's how quickly one followed the other. The R's need time to decide on staging, by which the bleeding in her brain would be obvious. An intruder could do either first in quick succession, and that would be most consistent w/autopsy and injuries.

    If you understand what the forensic experts are saying that leaves us w/IDI.
     
  5. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Less then 10min.Simultaneous.
    And no,it doesn't necessarily mean IDI,it could mean a parent did it/overkill.

    moo
     
  6. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    So you're telling me that within 2 minutes after bashing JB's head in, the Rs decide together to strangle JB, w/o BR knowing anything, they were able to locate the items they need, asemble it, tie the complex slip knot, and strangle their daughter, and that this is more likely than an intruder bashing then immediately strangling JB? :banghead:

    Why would the R's make a decision after smashing her head to immediately work on strangulation? :waitasec: Why is this MORE likely than an intruder?
     
  7. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Are you BLIND????????????
    Where did I say this???????:banghead:
     
  8. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overkill[/ame]


    In criminal profiling, the term "overkill" refers to the wounds or mutilations inflicted by offenders (especially serial killers), which go beyond what is necessary to kill the victim. Such wounds are often inflicted post mortem. This often occurs when the attacker is completely out of control i.e. a blind rage or the proverbial red mist. Alternatively, the deed may be done calmly in order to satisfy the control/possession fantasies of the assailant. A classic example would be a frenzied stabbing where the victim has suffered a very high count of abdominal wounds.
     
  9. Roy23

    Roy23 New Member

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    This only convinces me more of IDI. It could certainly be the case, but is completely not logical to me.
     
  10. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Why would either R"s after immediately bashing JB's skull, immediately overkill her w/strangulation? Wouldn't either alone be enough? Why is the R's overkill more likely than a hostile pedophile intruder overkill?

    If they intended to overkill JB why not also kill BR?

    The RDI spin team have argued that the strangulation was part of "staging" -- to misdirect and deceive investigators into believing that a sexual predator crime occurred. It is clear that such spin is not supported by the forensics, the strangulation occurred "simultaneous" to the head bash.
     
  11. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    what does the word " Simultaneous" mean in the context of head bashing and strangulation?

    Could simultaneous mean " that within 2 minutes after bashing JB's head in, the Rs decide together to strangle JB, w/o BR knowing anything, they were able to locate the items they need, asemble it, tie the complex slip knot, and strangle their daughter," "R's make a decision after smashing her head to immediately work on strangulation"
     
  12. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    NO.It means that you might lose it and bash someone's head but the rage isn't gone so you pick up whatever it is nearby and continue harming the other person.
    Did you ever hear of an abusive husband who killed his wife because he couldn't stop after the first hit?
     
  13. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    I think you're talking about a sane couple here,I was thinking more of someone who LOST CONTROL.


    Why do parents kill children in the first place,I'd like to know THAT.

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    And you know,it's not funny to edit your post AFTER someone replied.;)
    But what did I expect .......like someone told me many times!
     
  15. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Same old same old RST-like dirty tacticts.........
     
  16. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    could that someone be :devil:
     
  17. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    I have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
     
  18. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    Your powers are weak, old man. You should not have come back.

    Very little, eh? I think a revisit to the autopsy report is in order:

    "There is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area. This ecompasses an area approximately 7x4 inches."

    That's the size of a chair doily, for those of you keeping score.

    "On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere."

    Yet ANOTHER area of bleeding.

    "There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere."

    Yet ANOTHER area of bleeding.

    No argument.

    I would remind you that Wecht was operating from the premise that JB was killed during a sex game gone wrong. And Doberson can't get a story straight to save his life.

    Oh, it doesn't stop with Wright. Not by a damn sight. We also have Michigan pathologist Werner Spitz:

    "Someone went to a lot of trouble to stage sexual assault and strangulation after she was unconscious."

    Henry Lee:

    "since the head wound was fully developed."

    Tom Henry:

    "basically a blood clot in her brain."

    Not necessarily. Denver neurologist Kerry Brega has stated that it's fairly common for massive headwounds not to bleed.

    I don't know about immediately. But I'd agree with everything else. As for petechiae, those are not hard to get. A coughing fit can produce those.

    Moreover, head wounds are a funny thing. Very unpredictable. And that's not just me saying that. I've talked to several doctors, and they've told me the same thing. Let me add this: my dad was a Marine in Vietnam. He saw things no one should ever see. One day, he and his squad came upon a village that the VC had just hit. There was an old man lying in his hut. Half of his head was blown off. He'd been lying there for a while because the blood had congealed. He was still alive. He lived another two hours.

    Whatever that does for you.

    Except it's NOT a given. Werner Spitz actually performed a series of experiments. He didn't use anything living, just the usual stuff you'd expect a pathologist to use.

    As for using animals, 1) PETA would never let you get away with it. 2) Animals (with certain exceptions) are not human.

    Nope. Because the forensics say that there was at least ten minutes. I take that as a given. Thus, THAT's where the Razor starts, in my opinion.

    Precisely.

    Tell all of that to the pathologists. They're the ones you have to talk to, not us.

    My feelings exactly!

    Oh, I understand them quite well! Can't speak for other people.
     
  19. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    Really? Well, I guess a forensic pathologist with over 40+ years experience is part of the RDI spin team, because as Werner Spitz said:

    "Someone took a lot of time to stage strangulation after she was unconscious."

    He seems to support it!
     
  20. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    madeleine, when I say that child murder never makes sense, THIS is precisely what I mean!
     
  21. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    That my friends was no JIDI mind trick.
     

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