The girls were abducted then what?

Discussion in 'Sheila and Katherine Lyon' started by SharetheLight, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    In thinking about this case, it seems we all get hung up on where the girls were abducted and who abducted them. These are all important details but since we've gone round and round with the possibilities why not try to think about what happened next.
    Where did they go? It's clear whether they were taken in the mall, outside the mall, on their way home, or at home, they didn't stay there. The abductor had to take them somewhere else. Where did they go? Were they held captive somewhere?
    The only evidence that could bring justice to this case would be solid evidence of what became of the sisters. This evidence would have to come from the location they ended up in.
    Whether you think Coffey did it, TRM did it, or someone else completely there has to be some thought as to what happened next. Where did this person take them? It would seem they immediately left the Wheaton/Kensington area, but you never know. Stranger things have happened. So does anyone have any thoughts as to where these girls were taken?
    Just trying to think things from a different angle.
     
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  3. Motherof5

    Motherof5 New Member

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    Well, I feel the only way that we will ever find them is if
    a. we get an arrest and/or confession
    b. more witnesses come forward with new info
    or
    c. someone comes across them

    I understand what you are saying,but it's difficult to find someone without having some idea of how they came to be missing. As far as what happened to them after they were taken........The worst possible thing that could have happened would be my guess. Finding out who took them is the first step to finding out the rest of the story.
     
  4. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    I guess what I am getting at is trying to figure out what a person who commits this type of crime would do next. Where would they go? This crime is unusual because there were two girls taken. It would be difficult to confine/hide two girls away for too long.
    Someone posted a profile for the type of person we may be looking for. If we look at that profile and then think where would that type of person take these girls. From the profile one would guess this guy is not a loner like Hadden Clark. He is socially adept, therefore he couldn't keep the girls with him for too long. So most likely he did not take these girls to his home. Where did he drive with them? I am working under the assumption he had a car because the profile says he has a car. Looking at the profile, it would seem the person who committed this crime would take the girls out of the Wheaton/Kensington area immediately perhaps some distance away, but a place that is still familiar to the perpetrator. But maybe not too far, maybe just far enough that he could be back to help with the search for the girls. If this person committed similar crimes before is there one place he likes to leave all his victims or are they in different places of significance??
    Just trying to get into the head of someone who would do this. There has to be something that someone has missed. Maybe something very obvious? I don't believe in the perfect crime. There are always clues, always. The right questions just need to be asked.
    I am just throwing out some thoughts, any other thoughts out there?
     
  5. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    The profile I am using to try to determine where "this type" of person would go next is post #38 by Richard in the Potential Suspects and Persons of Interest thread. He compiled a pretty thorough list of possible traits this perpetrator may posess. I don't know how to link posts from other threads, sorry.
     
  6. Jeb

    Jeb New Member

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    It seems to me that a 'general rule of thumb' is that a perp like this, never takes the victims any further than a 10 mile diameter. This rule was true with Hadaan Clark when he killed and buried little Mischelle Door.
     
  7. Motherof5

    Motherof5 New Member

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    I think you maybe right about the suspect not taking them too far. I think it would be difficult to keep them calm for too long.Just long enough to get out of sight.
     
  8. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    This is a good rule of thumb, but when I researched the Coffey cases, just the three posted about on this board. In each of those cases the victims were found about 17 miles away from where they were taken. Which isn't too much further than 10 . . .
     
  9. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    Thinking where the perp could have gone immediately after taking the girls, and operating under the theory that a perp will usually stay within 10 miles, then here is where 10 or in some cases a little over 10 miles will get you:

    -Gaithersburg
    -Olney (to the north)
    -Potomac (to the east)
    -Beltsville (and most other bordering PG county cities)(to the west)
    -DC by way of Chevy Chase or Silver Spring (to the south)

    And any other city that falls within the 10 mile radius of these cities.

    Wheaton is located by several main roads/highways that could get you out of the area quickly. Especially at 3pm in the afternoon. One could be in PG County or DC within a matter of minutes. And really into VA too.
    I believe most likely the abductor took the girls out of Montgomery County and into another jurisdiction immediately. News of their disappearance would start in Montgomery County but take a while to fan out into neighboring jurisdictions. Giving the abductor time . . .
     
  10. Rhett

    Rhett Member

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    How would he have gotten them to stay in the car? He wouldn't have had time to bind them in some way. Do you think he removed all but his inside door handles? I knew of someone who did this once, lol.
     
  11. wfgodot

    wfgodot Former Member

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    I've grown fonder of my Feast of St. Dismas/Easter week "find" from another of StL's excellent threads on this fascinating case. (The kidnapping occurred on the former, on the Tuesday of the latter.) If indeed there is a religious aspect to this case, I think they would have been taken to some place with--at leat in the mind of the perpetrator--a ritualistic significance.
     
  12. Motherof5

    Motherof5 New Member

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    Well, if it was someone they knew,he might not have had to.They may have been ok until a ride home turned into something else,by then they could have been frozen with fear. I've also thought about Steven Stayner.His abductor drugged his juice once he was in the car. He might have offered them a drink,once in the car or told them to drink or else.If this makes no sense,my son blessed me with 3 hours of sleep last night:rolleyes:
     
  13. Jeb

    Jeb New Member

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    Once the girls knew they were tricked, they probably would panic & make a lot of noise. However, maybe the perp had a gun, or knife, or a club. Maybe he hit or threatened them, & they settled down with fear. I believe having gotten them this far, he would have been prepared to continue & not sacrifice his 'catch'. Also, if he got them to the beltway, nobody is paying attention to what's going on in other vehicles.
     
  14. LillyRush

    LillyRush New Member

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    I have a few different thoughts on this.

    Going back to the idea that they may have gotten into the car of someone they knew...Could this tie into the idea that maybe the person was an older sibling of one of their friends who happened to be home from college/spring break? Would they have felt comfortable going in the car of a friend's older sibling?

    On the other hand, would they have even needed to get a ride at that point? It seems like they were not that far from home when they were last seen, per the eyewitness accounts. That, and the fact that it was a nice day, are the main things that make me question the idea that they voluntarily got into a car.

    Also, Katherine had plans to visit a neighbor who had just had a baby. So, they may not have been walking in the exact direction towards their home..that is assuming that Katherine planned to visit the neighbor immediately right after the mall.

    The other thing that I've been wondering about recently is, maybe they were hit and then the person who hit them disposed of them in order to avoid charges? What got me thinking about this was Richard mentioning that one of the witnesses said that he saw them walking "normally" down the street, but not on the sidewalk, literally in the middle of the street. Case in point: Jill Behrman, college student hit while riding her bike in Indiana. I believe her bike was found first, but her remains were missing for 3 or 4 years and it took just as long for them to get the perps (yes, more than one) to cooperate. Anyway, just thinking out loud....
     
  15. Motherof5

    Motherof5 New Member

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    You always have good ideas.:) I was thinking about your hit and run theory and it made me think of my uncle.When my uncle was 5,he was hit by a car and the couple that hit him scooped him up and took him for treatment.So, this type of thing does happen.My question would be,would there be blood evidence? My uncle left a pool of blood on the street.I guess it would depend on the injury. I've also wondered about the father of one of their friends picking them up,they would probably go willingly.Good point about Kate visiting the neighbor,I'm going to have to think on that.Keep your good ideas coming!!
     
  16. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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    This would have to be a pretty remote possibility. A car striking two girls hard enough to incapacitate them would have made a lot of noise and would have attracted the notice of residents.

    The two streets that the girls would have been traveling down were Faulkner and Drumm. There are a total of 41 houses along those two streets today - with only 20 feet spacing between them. Most, if not all, of those houses existed in 1975.

    The entire route down those two streets has sidewalks on at least one side, and in some places on both sides of the street.

    Two witnesses stated that they saw the girls walking that day. One boy, David Reed age 12, said that he passed Sheila and Kate ON THE SIDEWALK, headed east (toward the Mall) on Faulkner. David told his story to police some time between 26 and 28 March 1975. Somehow, he was quoted as saying that this took place at about 7:30 PM. By Saturday, 29 March 1975, newspapers were reporting that police were tending to "discount" David's story because the time was much later than other sighting reports.

    The second witness was a boy who police said was "Over 15-years-old". This boy said that when he heard about the "7:30" sighting (the one reported by David Reed), he did not think that his information was important. Then when he heard that police doubted the report, he decided to come forward (on 4 April 1975). According to police, he said he was riding in a car driven by another boy or man, headed west on Drumm between 2:30 and 3:30PM on Tuesday 25 March 1975. He was quoted as saying that the girls were also headed west on Drumm and walking normally in the roadway. He also stated that this was near the intersection of Drumm and Devin. Police withheld this second street sighting from the public for 13 days until 17 April when they released it to the press.

    If this "Over 15" statement was accurate and true, there would only have been a few hundred yards more for the girls to travel west on Drumm until they came to McComas, and that was where the path into the woods began. So any hit and run - or any type of abduction would have had to take place in a very short space of time and distance.

    It should be stated that while both of these witnesses made statements about the girls, police tended to discount David's statement within a few days, and had their doubts about the "over 15" statement in later years.
     
  17. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    Well if we discount the sightings on Drumm avenue, I suppose the possibility still exists that someone could have hit the girls in the parking lot, or even hit one of the girls, not even hard, but as a way to get them in the car.
    Say the girls are walking in parking lot, a car comes and bumps one or both of them enough to cause discomfort. The driver, very apologetic, offers to drive them home so they don't have to walk while injured and the driver will explain and give information to their parents. Only the driver doesn't take them home.
    This could make the abduction a random chance abduction, or someone could have been in the parking lot seen the girls go in the mall alone and waited for them to come out.
    It would definitely be an easy way to get the girls in the car without a fight.

    I really do wonder if the girls made it out of the mall, and if so, how far they made it. I am thinking also that maybe taking two girls, who are sisters, isn't as hard as it seems to have been. If the perp somehow convincingly or forcefully got one of the sisters within his control and threatened to do harm to her, then the other would probably do anything he said to keep her sister from harm.
     
  18. Motherof5

    Motherof5 New Member

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    Very interesting thoughts. I think I've read about an abduction where the perp hit a kid on a bike just to knock him off and take him. I'll have to try and remember who and when that was. What you're saying makes sense, getting one to comply or threatening one,could make the other go along.Reminds me of the movie "The Geen Mile" the guy is explaining how a man killed 2 sisters.The man said,"He killed them with their love for each other." The perp told one sister,"If you scream I'll kill her" and told the other sister the same thing. Both girls kept quiet out of fear that they would cause harm to each other.
     
  19. Jeb

    Jeb New Member

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    I believe the TRM timed this thing just right when the girls left the mall. He probably approached them in his vehicle as they walked down Drumm Ave. & continued whatever was said to them earlier on his recorder (after all these perps' know what to say, & and ask to obtain info). I do not beleive he was just talking to them at the mall, he was trolling. Somehow he coaxed them into his vehicle quickly, & after that it was 'Katy bar the door'. Credit due, these jerks are good at what they do!
     
  20. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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    Good comments and thoughts.

    I have been to Wheaton Plaza and although the inside has changed considerably since 1975, the outside area is much the same as it was; same vehicle entrances to parking lots, same walking path, etc.

    What struck me was the excellent vantage point exists near the end of Faulkner and what was the back entrance to Wards (now Target). Unlike the massive parking lots which one pictures an most malls, this is a very small area adjacent to the much larger parking area. It is somewhat sheltered and remote. Most people would park in the larger lot, unless they specifically wanted to go into Wards.

    Faulkner ends in a "turn-around" just short of the mall perimeter road, and the only way to get to it is at a cross walk from the Wards rear parking lot to a foot path which goes about 20 feet and joins up at the end of Faulkner.

    Someone parked in that lot could watch people coming and going, and could determine which children were accompanied by older friends or adults - and which were alone. The cross walk literally passes right next to one of the parking spaces. It would be possible for someone with a vehicle (especially a van) to park next to where the cross walk ended, facing out so that the side cargo door was alongside the usual path of some one crossing the street.

    Any kind of ruse could have been used when the girls came past on their way home. This small parking lot would have been the optimum point for his ambush, as he would have been in position, attracting no attention, and could keep careful watch, not only for the girls, but for the presence of any potential witnesses.

    If, for any reason, the abductor decided to abort his attempt in the parking lot, (maybe the presence of a witness, a passing vehicle, etc) he could simply let them pass by and then drive out to University Ave, only a hundred yards away, turn left and turn left on Drumm or the next road and be in the area where the girls were reportedly seen walking home. The whole evolution would have taken only minutes.
     
  21. SharetheLight

    SharetheLight Share the Light, Share the Love

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    But if it didn't happen in the parking lot, then the person would have to know his way around. It's not like the car could just follow closely behind the girls. He would have to know which roads linked to which roads, and he would have to know where the girls were headed. If one simply observed them coming through a cross walk there would be no clear indication which direction they came from. For a car to leave the parking lot and end up on the streets they were walking, I think the car would have to drive out onto University Blvd. and then in a circle to the residential streets. And those streets, at least University Blvd., is heavily travelled at all times of the day.

    Admittedly the actual plaza has changed drastically. The parking lots for the most part remain as they were. I would think there would be a big change in trees, shrubbery, and paths since 1975. When did you see this area? In 1975, or sometime later? I understand your thoughts about the parking area being the same, but maybe trees have been cleared, or landscapes redone so the view in 1975 may not have been so clear.
    Just some thoughts.
     

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