The Ligatures

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Blue Bottle 01, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    The ligatures were not stage props they were functional, they were used to pose the body. The reason there is 17" of cord from the loop around the neck to the handle is the handle had to clear the head as it was brought up behind the head and placed into a holder or one end of the stick was placed into a hole with the other end protruding out. This raised the torso to a vertical position, either seated, kneeling or on the feet. I don't think there was a free hanging suspension. The reason there was 15" of cord between the loops on the wrists is that cord was brought up over the head and placed over whatever held the handle or over the protruding end of the stick. This raised the arms to an upright postition, the same position they were found in in rigor. The 15" of cord between the wrist loops would not have restricted movement of the arms much at all and could not have fooled investigators as being a binding. The ligatures were not constructed to decieve police. They were functional as posing devices. This is a classic posing of a body after death for reasons known only to the perpetrator. The raising of arms has well known symbolism; surrender, praise, beseeching and others. Whatever it meant to Patsy can only guessed, mine is it had something to do with Victory!

    This is my opinion.
     
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  3. Chelly

    Chelly Well-Known Member

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    Weren't the wrist loops so loose that the hands could easily slip out?
     
  4. ozazure

    ozazure Active Member

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    I think they were loose. But I don't think this would mean that they could be used in this way, if the person was not conscious, as long as the loop didn't extend the length of the hand it could keep them up, say if the loop was running parallel to the hand, or the hand was simply suspended inside it.

    I don't think the cords were staging, I think they were done for a purpose. Whether that was restraint or posing, I don't know, but I tend to believe more in some sort of naive, less effectively designed than possible, restraint vs posing her body for what seems would amount to a ritual. But stranger things have happened.

    If posed, would have she still been alive because the pattern of livor mortis found?
     
  5. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    NO. The crime scene photos clearly show the loop remaining on the left arm was tight enough to keep the sweater from slipping through.

    In my opinion.
     
  6. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    No. The neck cord was tightened enough to cause death.

    The body was posed, viewed, then taken down and placed in the small room where rigor and liver mortis set it.

    In my opinion.
     
  7. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    Do you believe JonBenet was positioned as described by JR in his 1998 BDA Interview?
    (John Ramsey, BDA INTVW 1998)
     
  8. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
    8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
    9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
    10 apart?
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
    12 MIKE KANE: They were crossed like that.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
    14 were close together

    The hands close together does not match the model I made nor does it match the artist's rendition of the position of the body in rigor when John brought it upstairs. The model had the hands to the side of the head and just above the ears.
     
  9. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    Do you have an image you could post of the model you made?...

    It appears, to me, that JonBenet's hands were rather close in the crime scene photo of her upper body (side view, arms in rigor, paper sacks over her hands).
     
  10. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    I'm not tech savy enough to post an image. But I just made it again and the hands were well above the head.
     
  11. Mama2JML

    Mama2JML New Member

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    So, like "touchdown"?... JR's description seems more like "time out".
    [​IMG]
     
  12. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    There could not have been any posing after death. Livor mortis rules that out. There was NO livor pattern that indicated that she was in ANY other position than the way she was found- on her back, head cocked to the right, legs straight out. Her arms were found bent at almost a right angle at the elbow. But if you know how rigor mortis works, you know that as rigor increases it ratchets the muscles tighter and tighter and can actually pull the arms into a position like that. Her arms may have been straight up against her head or across her chest or at her sides and been pulled into that "boxer's pose" as rigor increased.
     
  13. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for the arms to be above the head. It would definitely have to be a psycho who did these things. Some of it, like the arms up and mucus left on the cheek makes me highly doubt that there was much remorse or any comforting done by covering with the blanket.

    DeeDee : Could the arms be pulled above the head during rigor?
     
  14. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    She was posed and then taken down and placed in the small room well before rigor. IMO.
     
  15. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    From JonBenet Inside The Murder Investigation:

    The two sisters settled in beside Patsy and read the Bible to her, all three waving their arms in the air and moaning. One said she had a vision in which JonBenet was an angel. A police officer later noticed that the Bible verses dealt with forgiveness. - p39.

    In prayer Patsy's sisters, Pam and Polly, waved their arms over their heads and loudley called for heavenly help. - p59.
     
  16. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    That is right. There was a psychotic reason.

    Psycho is a colloquialism. Psychotic is the appropriate scientific term.

    IMO.
     
  17. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    Lol, I know. Psychopath seems too much like a diagnosis in this case. Psycho, horror movie psycho seems more fitting, imo.
     
  18. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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    The deliberate murder of a six year old girl was no movie.
     
  19. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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  20. Blue Bottle 01

    Blue Bottle 01 Former Member

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  21. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    You've kind of lost me. What makes you so sure the ligatures were used for posing? And you think it was for posing after death? Isn't that kind of behavior usually reserved for serial killers? Unless the body was posed for a specific person and the killer knew that person would see the body, why not discard the ligatures?
     

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