The pattern abrasion

[JimmyWells]

Not sure if it was Steve or Chris that had the pattern abrasion on his head but looks awfully like a cast scratch to me. Not part of the Bojangles camp but that's exactly the type of pattern abrasion which would result by being struck and especially scratched with fiberglass.

Secondly, and I'm fairly well read on this case but there's always someone smarter, I'm starting to lean towards Miskelley being dirty but in a contextually different way. I think people are confused about Jesse. He deflected blame out of the gate, sold Echols up the river and continued to minimize his involvement until he was backed into a corner. He lied incessantly and provided police with false narratives from the start even so far as to confess and retract several times. Innocent people do not confess several times over with evolving knowledge and circumstances every time, especially to their lawyer. Now I'm not saying the police didn't steer questioning and use ethically questionable tactics but I think Jessie was there, maybe with LG, who knows, but the logistics of the crime scene, where bodies were placed and what not, how did he know? How could he have known Moore was so far from the others? It's a completely innocuous thing and the smartest guy in the world wouldn't have guessed Moore "Took off." Jesse, as dumb as people make him out to be, knew things he shouldn't have known. If they had just walked him through the crime scene we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not completely sold on Echols but Baldwin, not a chance he was involved, just collateral damage.

 

[DHT1339]

there have been many cases where people have confessed to a crime more than once, only to be exonerated by DNA evidence. not to mention JM's confessions were all over the place. i think in his first one he said the crime occurred at noon and said that DE raped one of the boys.

maybe JM had learned things about the crime from someone else who knew something? nothing seems to be out of the realm of possibility when it comes to this case. but personally, i don't believe the WM3 had anything to do with the crime. there is zero chance the state of Arkansas would have released them if they had even the slightest bit of evidence they committed the crime

 

[JimmyWells]

I kinda teeter. For the last twenty years I was a pro, still am to an extent. I always thought a trucker may have did what he did in the back of a trailer and walked the bodies one by one to the ditch during gaps in the search. But the scene required light and a flashlight would all but put the handcuffs on you unless it was in the early am. Two of them drowned and given their head injuries they wouldn't have survived long so we have to assume they were dumped where it occurred but conversely Chris bled out which would take some time and if he bled out due to animal predation there would have been water in his lungs because the turtles were in the water. There had to be a catalyst for the turtles to come, i.e. there would have to have been blood in the water. Both Chris' and Steve's injuries were obvious animal predation, the gouges, the patterns, I've seen it a dozen times with my job so I'm surprised why it took so long for the Bible Belt folk to figure out. Secondly, Hicks and I think two more witnesses reported mud on the pipe as early as 9:00 so we have to assume whomever did the deed waked south on the pipe rather than west to the Blue Beacon which kills the trucker theory. I realize people falsely confess but what people don't do is falsely confess with evolving circumstances, they stick to their original story. Seemed like Jesse was feeding them an ounce of the truth while altering names and times. Now I'm not saying Jesse was some criminal mastermind but his statements reek of Michael Skakel's statements in the Martha Moxley case where the suspects manipulated the police for once.

there have been many cases where people have confessed to a crime more than once, only to be exonerated by DNA evidence. not to mention JM's confessions were all over the place. i think in his first one he said the crime occurred at noon and said that DE raped one of the boys.

maybe JM had learned things about the crime from someone else who knew something? nothing seems to be out of the realm of possibility when it comes to this case. but personally, i don't believe the WM3 had anything to do with the crime. there is zero chance the state of Arkansas would have released them if they had even the slightest bit of evidence they committed the crime

 

[JimmyWells]

There was no physical evidence tying them to the crime and they would have walked after a new trial and would have had a monstrous civil case which would have broke Arkansas for years. Doesn't mean they didn't do it. If there were no statute of limitations on civil cases the Hobbs, Byers, and Moore families could sue the WM3 for wrongful death today and win. "The strongest for of evidence aside from DNA is a confession. DNA, at this point, is moot in this case and based on preponderance the WM3 are guilty. So really right or wrong doesn't matter, there is a greater than 50% chance that they are guilty based on the confession alone, forced, false or what not, he made it and its really the only viable inclusive evidence ever presented in this case. So unless Paul Holes goes to Arkansas and runs a partial familial search on the "Hobbs" hair I'm afraid we're going to keep going in circles.

there have been many cases where people have confessed to a crime more than once, only to be exonerated by DNA evidence. not to mention JM's confessions were all over the place. i think in his first one he said the crime occurred at noon and said that DE raped one of the boys.

maybe JM had learned things about the crime from someone else who knew something? nothing seems to be out of the realm of possibility when it comes to this case. but personally, i don't believe the WM3 had anything to do with the crime. there is zero chance the state of Arkansas would have released them if they had even the slightest bit of evidence they committed the crime

 

[DHT1339]

I kinda teeter. For the last twenty years I was a pro, still am to an extent. I always thought a trucker may have did what he did in the back of a trailer and walked the bodies one by one to the ditch during gaps in the search. But the scene required light and a flashlight would all but put the handcuffs on you unless it was in the early am. Two of them drowned and given their head injuries they wouldn't have survived long so we have to assume they were dumped where it occurred but conversely Chris bled out which would take some time and if he bled out due to animal predation there would have been water in his lungs because the turtles were in the water. There had to be a catalyst for the turtles to come, i.e. there would have to have been blood in the water. Both Chris' and Steve's injuries were obvious animal predation, the gouges, the patterns, I've seen it a dozen times with my job so I'm surprised why it took so long for the Bible Belt folk to figure out. Secondly, Hicks and I think two more witnesses reported mud on the pipe as early as 9:00 so we have to assume whomever did the deed waked south on the pipe rather than west to the Blue Beacon which kills the trucker theory. I realize people falsely confess but what people don't do is falsely confess with evolving circumstances, they stick to their original story. Seemed like Jesse was feeding them an ounce of the truth while altering names and times. Now I'm not saying Jesse was some criminal mastermind but his statements reek of Michael Skakel's statements in the Martha Moxley case where the suspects manipulated the police for once.

i have no doubt the killer knew the boys and that they knew the area very well

in the bob ruff miniseries on oxygen (which i was not a fan of,) he puts an animal carcass or raw meat, i forget what it was exactly, into the water and the turtles began biting at it almost immediately. if we're saying that the murders occurred where the bodies were found, then yeah there would certainly have been blood that the water washed away, which would explain why the crime scene was so clean.

i've never heard of the mud on the pipe thing but it could mean whoever was responsible may have gone towards or into the mayfair apartments. i feel like there were a lot of clues there that could help potentially solve this case but unfortunately they're gone forever

 

[JimmyWells]

I think though, Steve's face and Chris' groin area had lacerations before they entered the water, not nearly to the extent conveyed in the crime scene photos but I think there was some catalyst that had the turtles feeding where they were. The scrotum is obvious animal predation, it's a common target and completely plausible. Now it depends on where their bodies were positioned but if Steve's face was in the same general area where Chris' groin was I'd say the turtles just went for whatever was close. I mean, think about it. Moore was furthest upstream and the turtles would have come from the bayou, coming across Byers and Branch first. If you have food right in front of you why push the issue?

 

[JimmyWells]

That Bob Ruff is a bit too dramatic emotional, kind of like the dude from the ID shows. I'd say you are completely accurate with the killer knowing the boys with one exception. A trucker that frequents or had checked in to the rest stop and it's on record would have a stake in hiding the crime, probably more so than the WM3 because other than that lying Hollingsworth broad, who's brother is probably a better suspect than most, was the only one tying them to the scene. The route from the truck stop is quick, direct, and of low light if the truck is backed up to the end of the lot correctly. The boys last alleged sighting by the one witness, Cindy Rico, was up by where the service road crosses the north end of the ditch which makes sense because Chris' brother said he wouldn't have crossed the pipe, he was afraid of going across and with bikes it would have been too arduous and risky in the first place. I think a lot of the questions in this case can be answered if authorities knew for certain where the boys entered the BB woods. I don't think the WM3 would have been criminally sophisticated enough to dispose the bodies in the manner in which they were disposed but Miskelley's confessions scare me because he was remarkably accurate as to which bank the kids were attacked and the positions of the bodies. Jesse said he exited the woods after the alleged murders to the north by the service road which would not have been accessible from the west bank unless someone went in the water. Byers and Branch were found on the west bank and conversely not accessible from the east. What is plainly obvious is that opposite from either bank is a significant elevation change which would have impeded any ditch access from that respective side. So if Moore took off exactly as Jessie had said the only possible site he could have been dumped from was the east. I'm wondering if Jesse implicated Damien and Jason simply because the police were asking questions about Damien and wanted to pass the buck. This was apparent out of the gate, even in Jesse's first statement. There was obviously more than one killer here unless the crime scene was elsewhere but we have to go with the simplest explanation, the kids were seen entering the woods and weren't seen leaving so we have to assume they were murdered where they were found. The east bank lit up like a Christmas tree and I can tell you from experience, luminol does not often perform real well in a porous environment so the fact that they saw the results they did makes me think there was a whole lot more blood than advertised, so much so that Jackie Hicks noted that "It smells like blood" while walking along the ditch the night before they were found. I contend this: Jesse was there, he beat, tied and dumped Moore while whomever he was with dumped Branch and Byers. I believe their were two offenders in this case, the other of which attacked Byers and Branch on the west bank. I think this was bullying gone too far and when the offender(s) bit off a bit more than they can chew and seriously injured one of the boys, all witnesses had to be eliminated. Moore had all blunt force injuries, just as Jesse said he did. Jesse also added that he exited the area from the north. Who said the killers left together? A completely plausible conclusion is Jessie chased down Moore, beat him severely on his head just as he said he did when it was determined that no witnesses could live, removed his clothes and tied him after corresponding with his co-offender across the ditch. Clothing was found to the north of Moore and to the south of Branch and Byers, implying two offenders. The bikes were dumped in the bayou to the south and we know at least one offender crossed the pipe due to the mud caked footprints. Nothing was found on the trails to west other than a luminol hit on a trail leading to the pipe and another hit at the top of the west bank above Moore's body where the bank couldn't be accessed due to a significant elevation change. Jesse left to the north, just as he said he did, smashed the Evan Williams bottle just as he said he did. The majority of the clothing was found to the north of Moore who was already significantly far from the other two victims. The distance between where the bikes were found to where the clothes north of Moore were found was roughly eighty yards and that's as the crow flies. The killers split up at the scene, one to the north, and one to the south. No one offender, especially in these circumstances, is going to expand the crime scene to that extent. They want to get out of there as soon as possible without being seen so spreading the evidence around just isn't reasonable for one offender. Two offenders, one dumping Byers and Branch then exiting to the south before dumping the bikes while the other dumped Moore with the majority of the clothing before exiting to the north. I certainly would have liked to see the Bayou dragged as I'm fairly confident some socks, a couple pairs of underwear, and whatever was used to injure Branch's leg are probably still in it. I really think though, the only way we see anything out of this case is if investigators submit the "Hobbs" hair to a genealogy database, the same way Joseph Deangelo was caught. If Hobbs is the owner, while it makes him look even worse, is hardly conclusive as Moore could have picked it up harmlessly at the Hobbs home. If it comes up as anyone else things could get interesting because it either implicates an unknown suspect while absolving Hobbs or it could really backfire casting suspicion on the WM3 once again.

i have no doubt the killer knew the boys and that they knew the area very well

in the bob ruff miniseries on oxygen (which i was not a fan of,) he puts an animal carcass or raw meat, i forget what it was exactly, into the water and the turtles began biting at it almost immediately. if we're saying that the murders occurred where the bodies were found, then yeah there would certainly have been blood that the water washed away, which would explain why the crime scene was so clean.

i've never heard of the mud on the pipe thing but it could mean whoever was responsible may have gone towards or into the mayfair apartments. i feel like there were a lot of clues there that could help potentially solve this case but unfortunately they're gone forever

 

[truecrimeandwine]

That Bob Ruff is a bit too dramatic emotional, kind of like the dude from the ID shows. I'd say you are completely accurate with the killer knowing the boys with one exception. A trucker that frequents or had checked in to the rest stop and it's on record would have a stake in hiding the crime, probably more so than the WM3 because other than that lying Hollingsworth broad, who's brother is probably a better suspect than most, was the only one tying them to the scene. The route from the truck stop is quick, direct, and of low light if the truck is backed up to the end of the lot correctly. The boys last alleged sighting by the one witness, Cindy Rico, was up by where the service road crosses the north end of the ditch which makes sense because Chris' brother said he wouldn't have crossed the pipe, he was afraid of going across and with bikes it would have been too arduous and risky in the first place. I think a lot of the questions in this case can be answered if authorities knew for certain where the boys entered the BB woods. I don't think the WM3 would have been criminally sophisticated enough to dispose the bodies in the manner in which they were disposed but Miskelley's confessions scare me because he was remarkably accurate as to which bank the kids were attacked and the positions of the bodies. Jesse said he exited the woods after the alleged murders to the north by the service road which would not have been accessible from the west bank unless someone went in the water. Byers and Branch were found on the west bank and conversely not accessible from the east. What is plainly obvious is that opposite from either bank is a significant elevation change which would have impeded any ditch access from that respective side. So if Moore took off exactly as Jessie had said the only possible site he could have been dumped from was the east. I'm wondering if Jesse implicated Damien and Jason simply because the police were asking questions about Damien and wanted to pass the buck. This was apparent out of the gate, even in Jesse's first statement. There was obviously more than one killer here unless the crime scene was elsewhere but we have to go with the simplest explanation, the kids were seen entering the woods and weren't seen leaving so we have to assume they were murdered where they were found. The east bank lit up like a Christmas tree and I can tell you from experience, luminol does not often perform real well in a porous environment so the fact that they saw the results they did makes me think there was a whole lot more blood than advertised, so much so that Jackie Hicks noted that "It smells like blood" while walking along the ditch the night before they were found. I contend this: Jesse was there, he beat, tied and dumped Moore while whomever he was with dumped Branch and Byers. I believe their were two offenders in this case, the other of which attacked Byers and Branch on the west bank. I think this was bullying gone too far and when the offender(s) bit off a bit more than they can chew and seriously injured one of the boys, all witnesses had to be eliminated. Moore had all blunt force injuries, just as Jesse said he did. Jesse also added that he exited the area from the north. Who said the killers left together? A completely plausible conclusion is Jessie chased down Moore, beat him severely on his head just as he said he did when it was determined that no witnesses could live, removed his clothes and tied him after corresponding with his co-offender across the ditch. Clothing was found to the north of Moore and to the south of Branch and Byers, implying two offenders. The bikes were dumped in the bayou to the south and we know at least one offender crossed the pipe due to the mud caked footprints. Nothing was found on the trails to west other than a luminol hit on a trail leading to the pipe and another hit at the top of the west bank above Moore's body where the bank couldn't be accessed due to a significant elevation change. Jesse left to the north, just as he said he did, smashed the Evan Williams bottle just as he said he did. The majority of the clothing was found to the north of Moore who was already significantly far from the other two victims. The distance between where the bikes were found to where the clothes north of Moore were found was roughly eighty yards and that's as the crow flies. The killers split up at the scene, one to the north, and one to the south. No one offender, especially in these circumstances, is going to expand the crime scene to that extent. They want to get out of there as soon as possible without being seen so spreading the evidence around just isn't reasonable for one offender. Two offenders, one dumping Byers and Branch then exiting to the south before dumping the bikes while the other dumped Moore with the majority of the clothing before exiting to the north. I certainly would have liked to see the Bayou dragged as I'm fairly confident some socks, a couple pairs of underwear, and whatever was used to injure Branch's leg are probably still in it. I really think though, the only way we see anything out of this case is if investigators submit the "Hobbs" hair to a genealogy database, the same way Joseph Deangelo was caught. If Hobbs is the owner, while it makes him look even worse, is hardly conclusive as Moore could have picked it up harmlessly at the Hobbs home. If it comes up as anyone else things could get interesting because it either implicates an unknown suspect while absolving Hobbs or it could really backfire casting suspicion on the WM3 once again.

unfortunately, as I understand it the DNA they have is mitochondrial and they would need nuclear DNA to be able to narrow it down to a familial bloodline, just like in the case of the oakland child murders, they have DNA but the pool of possibilities is just far to large.

 

[herb4]

There are a couple of wounds/marks on the victims that appear to be "industrial" in nature. Meaning, could not have come an animal or a "big ole stick". A good while back, there was a theory being bandied about concerning rebar/manhole that I found compelling. One or two of the "scratch marks" bore a strong resemblance to "road rash", as if dragged over rough concrete.

There's also an "X" wound in the middle of the "bite mark" that looks to me like it was caused by a phillips head screwdriver, but I'm not forensics expert so this is just me talking.

Also, one can't extrapolate the math on the DNA "match" simply by comparing it to the population at large. The math/odds go up quite exponentially when you add in BOTH hairs and also understand that some of that "population at large" would (likely) have to be from someone within the family lineage who ALSO lived or was in the area. I'm not saying it's a smoking gun. Hairs may have been transfer for sure. Just saying the % match probability goes WAY UP when you have TWO - and it doesn't just DOUBLE or HALF. Math and percentages don't work like that.

Wish we knew which kid's shoelace the Hobbs hair was found in because if it was from a child that didn't play with Stevie or at the Hobbs' house..well then.