The Supposed "Evidence" Against Damien

[reedus23]

I doubt you see that I've no interest in humoring wild speculation that L. G. was involved in the murders and other Hollingsworths conspired to cover for him.

In fairness, it doesn't take any more speculation to think L.G. was involved than it did to say Damien was involved.

 

[reedus23]

Nobody sees things which are impossible. Sometimes honest mistakes or dishonest intentions result in people claiming to have seen things which are impossible, but what's impossible inherently can't be seen. As for your previous questions regarding what Narlene said she saw around 4:45 on the day of the murders, I've not done nearly enough research on that topic to even know if they can be answered with any reasonable degree of certainty, which is why I ask that you stop beating around the bush and get to your point if you actually have one worthy of consideration.

So it is possible that Narlene made an honest mistake when she said she saw Damien?

 

[reedus23]

Anyway, back to the topic of evidence, I recalled two other tidbits of evidence which I left off the list. One is the candle wax found on a shirt of one of the victims and which matches candles found in the home of Echols' girlfriend where he regularly stayed, as testified to by Lisa Sakevicius. As for the other bit of evidence I recalled, can anyone else think of it? Does nobody else care about the evidence presented against Echols at trial?

Kyle, I still would like to add your other tidbit of evidence to the list and if you gave it to us I apologize, I missed it. I took a shot at what you were thinking and didn't come up with it. Can you let us know and we'll add it to the list.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

IIRC, Damien was asked during the trial what medication he was taking and JMB was questioned about what medications he was taking when he was on the stand, but I don't recall anyone else being questioned wrt medication. However, since the convictions, both Michael Carson and Vicki Hutcheson have stated that they were medicated when they testified. As was pointed out, drugs seemed to be a real problem in the area. Therefore, it is not much of a stretch to believe that Narlene (and maybe even other Hollingsworths) could have been medicated when on the stand - maybe only Valium or some other calming drug, but I don't think it was ever discussed. It's a question worth investigating, IMO. I just don't know how to go about doing so!

 

[reedus23]

I think they were discussing the Hollingsworth evidence.

I am curious as to the other item of evidence you had referred to before. I think you said it was in Ridge's testimony.

So far we have:

1. Damien's lifestyle/writing (1 and 2 from CR).
2. Fibers
3. Girl's club girls
4. Hollingsworth crew
5. Lake knife
6. Sticks
7. Wax
8. Hairs
9. Jessie's statement.
10. ?????kyle?????

Kyle, please acknowledge that I have acknowledged the evidence you claim I don't acknowledge. Also, do you feel up to sharing the other piece of evidence with us yet or does it not exist and I can end the list at 9?

 

[kyleb]

I'll go ahead and bold it for you:

I narrowed it down to the notable stuff in this post:

It seems to me to that consider the evidence weak one would have to assume the following:

1. Anthony and Narlene Hollingsworth were lying or confused about seeing Echols near the scene of the murders covered in mud as someone who'd just hidden the bodies in the creek would be.
   
   
2. Either Jodee Medford and Christi VanVickle were lying confused when they told Jodee's mother Donna that they'd just heard Echols brag about committing the murders, or they were both lied along so did Donna Medford when she testified confirmed that her daughter and Cristy told her Echols he bragged about committing the murders at the softball game as soon as the girls got in the car with her to leave.
   
   
3. Bryn Ridge was lying or confused regarding Echols' knowledge regarding unconfirmed details of the murders.
   
   
4. The consistency between wounds on the victims and survival knife just some wild coincidence. or perhaps the result of some level of conspiracy.

Am I including unnecessarily supposition in that, or do those who argue the jury should've found reasonable doubt not comprehend the fact that juries are required to focus on the evidence presented by both the prosecution and the defense rather than dream up ways to do otherwise?

 

[reedus23]

I'll go ahead and bold it for you:

Thanks. I did not realize that that is what you were pointing at.

 

[reedus23]

1. Damien's lifestyle/writing (1 and 2 from CR).
2. Fibers
3. Girl's club girls
4. Hollingsworth crew
5. Lake knife
6. Sticks
7. Wax
8. Hairs
9. Jessie's statement.
10. Echol's knowledge of unconfirmed details of the murders.

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong but I think that this is the list as it stands currently.

 

[kyleb]

Well if you're going for a list of what evidence was presented against Echols at trial, as is the topic of this thread, then you've got stuff that shouldn't be there. If what you're going for a list of all the evidence which connects Echols to the murders, then you're falling short.

 

[reedus23]

1. Damien's lifestyle/writing (1 and 2 from CR).
2. Fibers
3. Girl's club girls
4. Hollingsworth crew
5. Lake knife
6. Sticks
7. Wax
8. Echol's knowledge of unconfirmed details of the murders.

Ok, I took off the hair and Miskelley's statement. I wasn't sure whether or not to take the Hollingworth crew off or not because at one time you said it shouldn't be considered but then also included it in your list. I'm easy either way, do you think they should be on or off the list?

 

[kyleb]

I said Rick and Tabitha Hollingsworth shouldn't be included in discussion of evidence at trial, but of course Anthony and Narlene should.

 

[reedus23]

I said Rick and Tabitha Hollingsworth shouldn't be included in discussion of evidence at trial, but of course Anthony and Narlene should.

1. Damien's lifestyle/writing (1 and 2 from CR).
2. Fibers
3. Girl's club girls
4. Rick and Tabitha Hollingsworth
5. Lake knife
6. Sticks
7. Wax
8. Echol's knowledge of unconfirmed details of the murders.

Obviously, you, me or others may think of other things, but I take it that as of now, this is an exhaustive list? Don't think I missed anything.

 

[gheckso]

Sorry for being daft but I'm trying to find where Echols reveals unconfirmed details within kyleb's link. I see where he states some of his own opinions of the crime which correspond to other peoples opinions at that time and is confirmed as much by Ridge in cross examination.

Am I just missing the key word here being "unconfirmed" as opposed to "unknown"?

So he relates some opinions of the crime which correspond to the belief of other people at the time but I am to take Damiens as being knowledge of unconfirmed details of the murders and exclude the others?

Off topic: Is it just me or can the tilt be seen within this particular transcript?

 

[reedus23]

Sorry for being daft but I'm trying to find where Echols reveals unconfirmed details within kyleb's link. I see where he states some of his own opinions of the crime which correspond to other peoples opinions at that time and is confirmed as much by Ridge in cross examination.

Am I just missing the key word here being "unconfirmed" as opposed to "unknown"?

So he relates some opinions of the crime which correspond to the belief of other people at the time but I am to take Damiens as being knowledge of unconfirmed details of the murders and exclude the others?

Off topic: Is it just me or can the tilt be seen within this particular transcript?

I hear ya gheckso. My next intention was to start a thread doing that allusive "analysis of all the evidence" and go through each item of evidence. My bet is that no one's opinions will change but at least that argument could no longer be made.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

The problem with saying that Damien had knowledge of previously unrevealed facts is that, in the small community of West Memphis, nothing remained "secret" for long. Once the bodies were discovered, the whole town knew what was found - in gory detail! So, to imply that Damien provided the police with information that "only the murderer would know" simply wasn't the case, unfortunately. It is the peculiarity of a small town that nothing remains a secret for very long.

 

[kyleb]

The problem with saying that Damien had knowledge of previously unrevealed facts is that, in the small community of West Memphis, nothing remained "secret" for long.

Do you not know what the problem with sweeping generalizations is?

Once the bodies were discovered, the whole town knew what was found - in gory detail!

The reality of the situation is far more complicated than that.

So, to imply that Damien provided the police with information that "only the murderer would know" simply wasn't the case

Nor has such has been implied, but [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214341"]this thread[/ame] has more recent discussion of the actual facts of the matter.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

The point remains, no matter what thread it is discussed in, that Damien had no special knowledge regarding the crime. Generalizations are generalizations for a reason - because they are generally true!

 

[reedus23]

The problem with saying that Damien had knowledge of previously unrevealed facts is that, in the small community of West Memphis, nothing remained "secret" for long. Once the bodies were discovered, the whole town knew what was found - in gory detail! So, to imply that Damien provided the police with information that "only the murderer would know" simply wasn't the case, unfortunately. It is the peculiarity of a small town that nothing remains a secret for very long.

And really Damien didn't say all that much about the crimes themselves. What he did say could be directly attributed to the first couple of media reports, and that's without watching any of the TV news reports. The rumor mill was certainly running rampant and I agree, nothing remained secret at all. I didn't really include talk about the rumor mill because I knew kyle would simply ask for a source, so I stuck with the media reports alone because those alone prove that the argument that Damien knew unconfirmed details about the crime is complete BS.

 

[reedus23]

Do you not know what the problem with sweeping generalizations is?

Again, what I take from you is that you know the substance of the statement was accurate so you attack the messenger.

The reality of the situation is far more complicated than that.

Not really. Heck, LE was telling witnesses the details themselves.

Nor has such has been implied, but this thread has more recent discussion of the actual facts of the matter.

So you would agree that Damien, at no time, demonstrated a knowledge of unconfirmed details about the murders?

 

[kyleb]

Again, what I take from you is that you know the substance of the statement was accurate so you attack the messenger.

Wherever you're taking that from, it's not me.

So you would agree that Damien, at no time, demonstrated a knowledge of unconfirmed details about the murders?

No, I don't agree with that, and I've already explained why to you. Do you not comprehend the difference between unconfirmed details and details "only the murderer would know", or are you just ignoring the difference for the sake of making an argument?