The "war",what was it all about

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, Apr 20, 2010.

?

What was it all about?

  1. JR did something and FW knows what

    138 vote(s)
    80.7%
  2. FW did something and JR suspects what

    6 vote(s)
    3.5%
  3. BOTH were involved somehow in what happened

    17 vote(s)
    9.9%
  4. Both are innocent and it was all just a misunderstanding/ego

    10 vote(s)
    5.8%
  1. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Yes, I misunderstood. I can't see the Rs suspecting FW and simply giving up on it. If they suspected, or LE suspected, the Rs would be relentless. Wouldn't anyone? Remember they sent their surviving child to FW's home that morning. Hardly something you'd do if you suspected him of killing your other child. The DNA didn't match FW, either. There were no prints or fibers linking him to the crime. While he did admit touching the tape, the suitcase and some broken pieces of glass, it doesn't seem that he raised anyone else's suspicions, and JR's "suspicions' were simply for the purpose of deflecting blame from himself and Patsy.
    That can't be the reason for the rift between the families.
     


  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    DeeDee249,

    I have always wondered if something Burke said that morning, whilst at the White's, reinforced FW's suspicions. I cannot imagine it was all happy families etc.

    .
     
  3. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    31,470
    Likes Received:
    3,748
    Trophy Points:
    113
    or Burke's complete lack of concern and refusal to say anything, or ask anything.....
     
  4. Peepers

    Peepers Member

    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I have always wondered about the deterioration of the relationship too and I think FW could see there was something not right with the whole crime scene. He may have tried to tell John , but maybe at the same time PR was telling John it could FW. I personally see John as more of a victim in a way also. Think of Cindy A..Casey's mother, Caylees grandmother..she refuses to see any of the truth also. (although Im not comparing her as a victim). I dont think John dug for the truth because he didnt want to know the truth. It was easier for him to "think" an intruder did it. I agree that perhaps FW thought if he pushed it, it would be worse for him. Personally, I dont think Patsy told anyone what happened that night , there was always just enough doubt somewhere so she didnt have to admit anything to anyone. Then she just blocked it out..with medication mostly.
     
  5. my_tee_mouse

    my_tee_mouse Done. Put a Fork in Me.

    Messages:
    3,581
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I've long thought that the Rs had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy going on.
     
  6. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Linda7NJ,
    Yes, very curious, particularly if you assume Burke was a typical nine year old, albeit, the son of a millionaire, who took him on boating lessons?

    Another assumption of mine is that Burke was confident and socially outgoing, his mother and father are, on the surface, successful people, his mother, lets say, more extraverted than his father. This rubs off on you as a child, but it would be his father that supplied Burke with his male role model. Its from John that Burke would learn to act in the world.

    Fleet White returned to the wine-cellar after being told not to do so. Presumably he reviewed the crime-scene and checked the duct-tape. Now note in no interviews, none I have read, does Fleet White mention a Barbie Nightgown, or Barbie Doll being present in the wine-cellar.

    Fleet White is a very valuable witness, he saw the wine-cellar, before others came to inspect and turn it over. I reckon he is under some form of legal restraint to talk over aspects of the case.

    So if Fleet White did have a conversation with Burke, which under the circumstances you might expect, not an inquisition, but informal questions about prior events. Burke may have, as you suggest, declined to answer, thus informing Fleet White that something was amiss?

    Fleet White was probably one of the few individuals who surmised early on that, things were not as they appeared? I reckon the discovery of JonBenet must have propelled Fleet White from doubting a friend to certainty that JonBenet's death was as John intimates an inside job.

    It must have been transparently obvious to Fleet White that someone in the Ramsey household had interred JonBenet into the wine-cellar and staged an abduction. He knew that some of John's statements were at variance with some of the facts on the ground e.g. the intruder theory and the re-used duct-tape over JonBenet's mouth. I reckon he likely saw this fall from JonBenet's lips, but given the circumstances, disregarded it, only to remember later upstairs. Doubting his own memory he returned to check?

    Long before the rise of the popular JonBenet crime boards, the conspiracy theories, the lurid tales regarding pedophile rings etc. Fleet White considered one or more members of the Ramsey household culpable in the death of JonBenet!

    This must have been at the back of his mind as he minded Burke, the only person he could quiz on events of that morning. So did he recieve an answer from Burke that confirmed his suspicions, but later, due to legal process, he is unable to repeat in public. The White's have been silent for quite a while, and if they are reserving their testimony for court, then does that not rule out Patsy?


    .
     
  7. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,972
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I personally am ruling out PR as the killer.Yes,maybe she wrote the note,am not sure about that,maybe she helped in the cover-up for one of her men,JR or BR,but I think,and this is only my opinion and gut feeling,that if the cops these days still were so sure that PDI they would have dropped it.If PDI there's not much you can do about it now anyway.
    But the fact that they still insist and wanted to question BR tells me they opened their eyes a bit,maybe,and started considering BDI and JDI scenarios as well.
     
  8. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

    Messages:
    1,644
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What I heard is that Fleet White drove Burke to his home and the only subject they talked about was Burke's new Nintendo64.

    During the kidnapping stage, a Detective drove out to the Whites and questioned Burke. From what I read, Burke knew nothing.

    Fleet was upset because John got himself lawyered up, was not talking to the Police, and was going on CNN. John Ramsey told LE that it was Fleet's idea that he and Patsy go on CNN.

    Priscilla confronted Patsy at Nedra's home and told her she had some information about JonBenet. Patsy refused to listen to her, telling Priscilla, "How could you know anything about my child?" Patsy's not wanting to hear what Priscilla knew was very suspcious, IMO.

    My belief is that the Ramseys were scared of the Whites for reasons being that the White's knew the Ramseys were involved.
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Toltec,
    Bingo!


    Thats what we are told, ...

    FW: nice nintendo Burke
    BR: yeah

    PW: you care for some soda Burke
    BR: no thanks I've got my nintendo.


    Did Fleet White see the Barbie Nightgown and Barbie Doll lying in the wine-cellar when he returned? JonBenet was upstairs now, so after checking the duct-tape the focus must have been the white blanket, the gown and the doll.

    How could he miss them, I'll bet he thought, now whats an intruder doing in the basement with a doll and nightgown?

    .
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    madeleine,
    I'm going to need a notebook soon, to keep all these points stored: Burke Ramsey was in a way a co-conspirator. He went along with his parents fake version of events, he play acted being asleep that morning, yet he can be heard on the taped 911 call.

    If Burke Ramsey ever confesses that any element of the fake version of events is fabricated then the Team Ramsey defense explodes into a million pieces. Placing him in legal jeopardy.

    We have the most important witness, after John Ramsey, e.g. Fleet White, totally silent not a snippet of text or a murmur from his lips about what he really saw or more remarkably, what he did not see in the wine-cellar on either of his wine-cellar visits.

    Other than he did not see JonBenet earlier that morning then around 1 AM , Hey Presto, after John was absent for a long period, JonBenet appears wrapped in a white blanket lying in the wine-cellar.

    So realistically the police know Burke is unlikely to admit hey guys I was awake that morning, I just put my head under the blankets and faked being asleep, because I knew my dad had said he would phone Fleet White and send me over there along with my nintendo

    So whatever questions they had for Burke they must relate either to the night before or his time spent at the White's. In the latter scenario Fleet White must have been itching to question Burke about prior events, after all Fleet had seen the wine-cellar, he saw the white blanket, the duct-tape, the pink nightgown, and the barbie doll and knew about there significance long before there were JonBenet chat boards.

    I reckon Fleet White talked with Burke and his answers along with whatever Priscilla White had to say about JonBenet would likely form the focus of any discussion. They would want Burke to confirm if these statements were correct or not, and of course the jaw dropper for Burke: Did you sip tea with JonBenet while she snacked pineapple, on returning from the White's party?

    At a minimum Fleet White knows something about the wine-cellar that we do not, after all, he saw it more than John Ramsey!


    .
     
  11. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I do believe I read somewhere that BR actually DID admit he was awake that morning, but pretended to be asleep. Did he also say that he pretended to be asleep when his father looked in his room that morning? Maybe. I don't think he mentioned knowing he was going to be sent to FW's. What he did say was that he was disappointed to realize that they wouldn't be going on vacation. Odd thing to be worried about, considering the chaos that was going on that morning and we all know there did not seem to be any concern for what had happened to his sister. Even if he did not know exactly what did happen to her, he knew SHE was not being sent to the White's- he was going alone, so that must mean (to him) that she was not there for some reason.
    All this is pretty startling to me- his reactions seem WAY off for a boy that age- he wasn't a 3-year old who might be expected to be oblivious to the whereabouts of siblings in the home.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    DeeDee249,
    Not sure about the latter but the former is out there somewhere. Even if JonBenet had not been killed that night Burke would have been awake early for his big adventure in Dad's plane.

    Burke was not concerned or even perturbed in a manner we might expect, precisely because he had prior knowledge. He was likely briefed by John and Patsy and told what to say. So he fetched his nintendo and headed over to Fleet White's.

    Well I'll hazard a guess: Burke knows JonBenet has not been kidnapped. Either Burke is ignorant of the events leading upto the 911 call, e.g. asleep in bed, or he was awake walking about, but returned to bed to facilitate the staging? I reckon, given what he has stated himself and what we know, that the latter is probably highly probable. Do not forget the Pinapple Snack, Burke was likely to have been present there also, so when you add it all up, then factor in the sexual assault and prior abuse. These are facts the we know and that Burke must know today. No wonder the LEA wish to interview him. He must be their most valuable witness, next will be Fleet White. What they observed and heard, has more credence than our speculations.


    We can assume Burke participated in the Abduction Staging Scenario. This might help explain his lack of concern. He need have none , he knows JonBenet is dead, but he has a part to play, so gets on with it? And if Burke was responsible for JonBenet's death, then play-acting was going to save his skin.

    Anyway allowing Burke to leave the house for the White's, what is all that about, who sanctioned it and why? Is this a tacit admission that Burke is the killer, being removed from the crime-scene, so to pervert the course of justice, or did it suggest something about John or Patsy and their expectations?

    One question I would like to ask Fleet White is why do you think you missed JonBenet, earlier that morning?

    Its not as if he was looking into an empty cellar with JonBenet placed at the back out of sight. there other items there, that simply should not have been there. And if he had observed those, then his intuition would have kicked in to take a closer look.

    But he never saw neither JonBenet or the items relocated from upstairs, which does suggest that JonBenet may have been moved there prior to being found. As Det Arndt observed when John Ramsey returned from his period of absence he was nervous , pacing, and his leg was twitching.


    .
     
  13. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I totally agree BR knows what happened, and knew (at least in part) that night. He knew she wasn't kidnapped, or else he would have been very afraid to be separated from his parents (and they from him). It isn't hard to see that the REAL reason for getting him out of the house that morning was to prevent him from being questioned by police or anyone else about what he may have seen or heard that night, and also to prevent him from being present in the house when his sister was "found". I do not feel that his removal in and of itself is necessarily an indication of his guilt.
    As to whether FW ever questioned why he did not see JB on his solo trip to the basement that morning- I am sure I read where he DID question it. He was the one who told LE after all, that he opened that door that morning (obviously being aware that there was a small wood latch that had to be opened first). This is an interesting thought: that wood latch was locked when Officer French went there, and I believe he was the first person to attempt to open that door (which he failed to do). So it must be assumed that it was latched when FW went to open it, and since FW said he DID look in the room, he must have unlatched it. What I want to know is if he re-latched it or left it open, and whether he observed JR having to UN-latch the door to open it when he accompanied him on his 1 PM trip to the basement to "have a look around" at Det. Arndt's suggestion. Because if there was a discrepancy there, then it DOES point to JR having gone down there during his 2-hour disappearance to move the body closer to the doorway. If FW latched it and it was UN-latched when JR opened that door, then someone (JR) had to have been in there between the time he was there in the am and the time JB was found. By the same theory, if he did NOT latch it again, ad he saw JR having to open the latch when they were there together, that also means someone (JR) had to have been there in between as well.
    As to why FW did not notice the "other out-of-place" things in the room, I can assume you are referring to the blanket, pink nightie and Barbie doll. The blanket and pink nightie were covering JB's body, so if she wasn't in a position to be seen when FW looked into the room, it follows they wouldn't have been seen either. As for the Barbie doll (which appears in photos a few feet away from the white blanket) - there were unwrapped presents in there along with the typical things stored in such a room (paint cans, window screens, etc) and he was primarily looking for JB, so he may have just not paid any attention to it. The room was dark because he couldn't find the light switch. That doll wears a dark burgundy dress and was in a cellophane box. It isn't hard to understand that he may simply have missed it or did notice it and didn't think anything of it. We will never know what he said to police about it or even if they ever asked him about it.
    We don't even know if the doll had been wrapped up with JB or was something tossed aside by the stagers when they were unwrapping boxes looking for the new panties. I feel that is what happened- that the doll was unwrapped in the search for the panties. Though JB may also have been given the doll as a gift, a Holiday Barbie isn't really a play doll - it is a collectors doll and as such is usually never taken out if the box. It would have been a perfectly appropriate gift for Jenny as well, even though she was older. Adult women collect those dolls as well. I would have loved to know if there was an identical second doll upstairs under the Christmas tree. This would prove that the one under the tree was JB's gift from Santa and the one in the wineceller was intended for someone else and unwrapped in the search for the clean panties.
    Whoever took the crime scene photos knows where the doll really was when LE first entered the winecelller. But FW knows whether it was wrapped up with JB or not- he was there in the room when JB found her, unwrapped her from the blanket and took her upstairs. It the horror of those moments- seeing the awful dead face of child he knew and cared about- it is no surprised that he may have been too shocked to notice much else.
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    DeeDee249,
    Sure it does not indicate guilt. But it does suggest John has a strategy, and one tactic is to divide and conquer, e.g. separate Burke from the family. So at this early point John is thinking tactically, and reckons Burke is better off outside of the house.


    IMO the Fleet White aspect is slightly more nuanced than first appears. Since he has never really stated what he observed. Now that might seem trivial, but bear in mind Fleet White paid Three visits to the wine-cellar that day, allegedly more than anyone else. So what you suggest regarding the latch may indeed have occurred tipping Fleet White off? Also although we can make assumptions about what he observed, only he knows what he did see! This includes whether he observed the same items in the same position on his first visit as he did on his second, or even if they were there at all? Thus prompting a third visit to reassure that his faculties were not failing him. This I reckon was the case, else why bother disobeying Det Arndt's instruction. So it appears Fleet White knows something about the wine-cellar that we do not.

    So it may be the case that although Fleet White can state he did not observe JonBenet on his first visit, he may have noted particular items, arranged in a particular configuration, and on his second visit as you point out, some of these items were now not in view, e.g. hidden by JonBenet's body?


    You may be correct here and darkness prevented Fleet White from seeing JonBenet. Then again as above, he may have noted items that he recollected were absent on his first visit?

    Well the silence emanating from BPD on this subject is deafening. Is that because it matters or because they messed up, deliberately or not? Patsy made no mention of JonBenet due to receive a doll, I wonder why? She saw the doll, yet never explained it away, as in Oh thats Jenny's gift and BPD never asked!

    Now you make an interesting point: it is a collectors doll and as such is usually never taken out if the box.. So patently there is something else going here, since you do not need to open a collectors doll box to find size-12 underwear? Why should there be a second identical doll under the Christmas tree, Christmas had come and gone. JonBenet had been given her doll, and presumably they all opened their gifts as accounted in the various books? Also if the doll was a gift for Jenny why had it not been mailed on? It was obviously not important enough to be loaded on the plane, so to be dealt with later.

    It might be that from a Ramsey perspective the doll forms part of the staging scenario, as does the pink nightgown, both of which are Barbie branded products?

    I think the doll formerly belonged to JonBenet, and for some reason, it found its way down to the wine-cellar.


    .
     
  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I was not suggesting that the panties were placed INSIDE the doll's collectors box. But the doll, panties, and whatever else (if anything) that were all gifts for Jenny may have been placed inside a larger box, which was then wrapped to mail. Patsy told police in her interview that she never got around to mailing it to Jenny and figured she would just mail it when she got back from the trip.
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    DeeDee249,
    So why did lea not ask Patsy about the doll and its assumed destination?

    Presumably the gift-box would have been tagged with Jenny's name?

    This is one aspect of the partially wrapped gifts that seems curious e.g. nobody has declared if they had name-tags. No name-tags seems to defeat the purpose of gift-wrapping.

    I thought Patsy stated she had placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her own personal use?

    The partially opened gifts could be staging, something that seemed a good idea at the time, but which we just interpret according to our favorite theory?

    The partially opened gifts do not make sense, they do not fit into any theory.



    .
     
  17. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    63
    LE never asked a lot of questions they should have.
    Patsy said she put them in a drawer. None were found there. Years later, size 12 Bloomies still in the package were sent to LE. This all tells me Patsy was lying, she never put those panties in the drawer.
    I doubt the partially opened gifts were staging..what would they be intended to portray? Neither R mentioned the panties being pulled from a wrapped gift box. There was no need to unwrap the boxes for staging purposes. We do not know if anyone ever checked the partially opened boxes for name tags.
    The partially opened boxes fit perfectly into MY theory (and that of anyone who shares my belief) that the size 12s were wrapped in a box to be sent to Jenny when Patsy returned from the trip, and when it became necessary to replace the panties JB was originally wearing, the boxes were unwrapped until they were found.
     
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113

    DeeDee249,
    I completely agree. After being told that JonBenet was found wearing size-12's, Patsy invented this cover story, which was then contradicted by lea, so then the remaining size-12's were found in a packing crate.


    You could be correct here, then surely the gift would be name-tagged? I'll have to do some research on this topic, I'm probably missing out on some aspect.


    .
     
  19. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Just a quick question.
    What if Burke didn't just talk about his Nintendo to Fleet White?
    What if he said something which either directly contradicted John's comments or at least lead him to question the story he was being told by John?
    So he confronts John with his question...John gives an answer which doesn't match what Fleet has clearly been thinking about.
    This is the barney they have at the funeral.

    Of course, Fleet may simply have thought about things...little things. Like how it's claimed that John attempted to prevent Fleet from going into the basement room, or maybe he simply put 2 and 2 together and didn't like what he got, said something to John and then they had their barney.

    Either way, the families stopped talking.
    I'd have thought a tragedy would bring friends closer together....unless they didn't buy the story that is...

    So aside from John, who by now will have convinced himself of his non-involvement, it's Fleet White and Burke Ramsey who are the most important people to this case.

    And I note neither of them says very much.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,373
    Trophy Points:
    113
    wonderllama,
    The nintendo chat is representitive and what you suggest probably took place. Fleet White would also know what to ask, we do not. I am fairly certain some evidence has been redacted, particularly relating to the wine-cellar or JonBenet?

    What Fleet White will certainly know but cannot prove is: was anything changed in the wine-cellar between his visits? If it was and he reckons because John Ramsey made a beeline for wine-cellar, he will have him down as the prime suspect. Did Fleet White see the pink barbie nightgown or the barbie doll on his first visit and did he notice it on his second visit? When he returned on his third visit it can only have been to confirm that something new was in the wine-cellar, otherwise why bother looking? Not unless he could not believe he missed JonBenet on his first visit, so was checking the visibility.

    I doubt we will hear much from Burke as long as his father is alive. Once he passes on, there will be renewed media interest, with JR gone, the litigation risk will be minimal, so there will be press articles and some documentaries along the Famous Unsolved Cases theme. Burke could pop up in one of these promoting some theory just as JR and PR did with Lou Smit. Fleet White might feel free to tell us what he knows, especially if he has JR down as the prime suspect?

    Precisely because JR sent Burke to Fleet White's house is the reason I doubt that BDI is correct. JR and PR intended to flee Colorado by plane, their abduction plan was intended to buy time, so they could make the flying arrangements etc. With Burke at Fleet White's house there was never any guarantee that they would be able to fetch Burke so he too could leave Colorado. So if BDI was correct what sense does it make to potentially leave Burke behind while the innocent parents effectively flee Colorado. Burke may have, at any moment, admitted his alleged guilt, broken down under the stress etc.


    .
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice