The "war",what was it all about

What was it all about?

  • JR did something and FW knows what

    Votes: 138 80.7%
  • FW did something and JR suspects what

    Votes: 6 3.5%
  • BOTH were involved somehow in what happened

    Votes: 17 9.9%
  • Both are innocent and it was all just a misunderstanding/ego

    Votes: 10 5.8%

  • Total voters
    171
Burke and Fleet are merely observers/witnesses to things which may support theories in my books. Not actually involved, but involved enough to add to what is suspected.

Having said that, the fact that they do not offer up information makes me look at them with contempt.
 
Despite the new evidence, Ramsey is still haunted by suspicions that a close friend with access to the house had some role in the murder, and he questions this person’s alibi.

Michael Archuleta, who was the pilot of John’s King Air Jet, and his wife, Pam—also speaking publicly for the first time—share Ramsey’s suspicions.

------------

Yet Ramsey’s suspicions persist. Asked directly if he thinks this acquaintance killed JonBenet, Ramsey says, "Oh, I don't think so, But then he proceeds to poke holes in the man’s alibi and describe how the Boulder police botched the investigation from the beginning. Moreover, Pam and Michael Archuleta, who remained close to the Ramseys and are also speaking publicly for the first time, tick off circumstantial evidence that they believe points to this man. Asked about the new samples of “stranger” DNA, Michael, who was the pilot of John Ramsey’s King Air jet, adds, “perhaps this person's DNA was not found because he hired someone to do it for him."



http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...lly-exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter/

Thank you for the link, but that is some of the most bizarre reasoning I have ever encountered. To wit,

a. Ramsey and his friends, the Archulettas, still suspect a family friend and have intimated as much to LE, yet Ramsey remains outraged that he and his wife were ever suspected of JBR's murder. Um, if the family friend "had access to the house", guess who not only had access but is known to have been INSIDE the house at the of the murder?

Ramsey further claims there are holes in the friend's "alibi". I suppose that would be opposed to the brilliant alibi of "I took melatonin and didn't hear a thing."

b. Ramsey and the Archulettas still suspect the family friend, despite the touch DNA which doesn't match the friend ("well, maybe he had someone commit the crime for him"); yet the rest of us are supposed to believe the Ramseys are innocent because that same DNA doesn't match them.

c. Ramsey bitterly complains that Linda Arndt failed to secure the crime scene (i.e., the house) and he is right; but he seemingly fails to remember it was he and his wife who called in half the population of Boulder before the police even arrived. I only know kidnappings from TV shows, but even I know better than to hold a party while you're waiting for a ransom call.

None of the above proves that JR (or PR) are the killer. But it does show how time hasn't improved Mr. Ramsey's ability to articulate a rational theory to the press.
 
To me, JR's "family friend" is a blatant reference to FW, and an "insurance policy" for JR to be sure that "family friend" never comes forward with what he knows or suspects. JR is saying to FW- "you better keep your mouth shut".
Of course, the fiber evidence actually ON THE BODY comes from TWO people- JR and Patsy.
There is ZERO evidence pointing to FW. The note intimates a business grudge- FW was not in business with JR nor was he a disgruntled employee nor did the Ws have any reason to be jealous or resent the Rs.
Does JR even see how ridiculous this seems?
There has long been suspicions that the pilot/friend knows something, and many felt he actually came to the house in the wee hours before the 911 call and was given a "package" to take away and destroy/hide.
The fact that these two (JR and pilot/friend) are now blathering about the "family friend" is suspect.
I understand that pilot/friend had marital trouble, and got divorced. True? Anyone know? If that is the case, hmmmmm. Wonder why she was upset with hubby?
I try to picture the emotions and adrenaline in the house early that morning before JB was found. I picture FW, called by the Rs themselves to the house, hearing the horrible news that JB had been kidnapped. Thoughts racing everywhere- the horror of a good friend's child, a little girl you knew and who played with your own little girl- gone- Christmas night. Breath coming quicker, heart rate up, blood pressure up, adrenal glands going into overdrive. And he is asked to take the Rs remaining child to his own home. Obviously the Rs trusted him enough for that. He made some level of small talk just to ease the child. Understandably, BR talks about his favorite present - his Nintendo, and this was a good choice for something that was easy to take with him and could occupy his mind while there.
THEN- after FW returns to the R house, he experiences the horror of seeing that same little girl, obviously NOT kidnapped, but DEAD, stiff and gray with a cord around her neck so deep that it made furrows in her skin, arms pulled by rigor mortis into a grotesque parody of a self-defense pose, up in front of her face like a tiny boxer. He also notices that JR, ahead of him by just steps, sees this sad corpse in a dark room before he even turns the light on. A room he himself had looked in hours before and saw nothing. So suspicions start to form, and JR sensed it.
Did he ask BR what he may have seen or heard that night? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends if he wanted to keep him distracted. Better leave that questioning to the police. However, if he did probe a bit, JR would surely have asked BR when they took him to the Fernie's (where they stayed when they left the house), BR may have told them FW asked questions and from that point on FW was someone to add to that list of faux-suspects.
 
To me, JR's "family friend" is a blatant reference to FW, and an "insurance policy" for JR to be sure that "family friend" never comes forward with what he knows or suspects. JR is saying to FW- "you better keep your mouth shut".
Of course, the fiber evidence actually ON THE BODY comes from TWO people- JR and Patsy.
There is ZERO evidence pointing to FW. The note intimates a business grudge- FW was not in business with JR nor was he a disgruntled employee nor did the Ws have any reason to be jealous or resent the Rs.
Does JR even see how ridiculous this seems?
There has long been suspicions that the pilot/friend knows something, and many felt he actually came to the house in the wee hours before the 911 call and was given a "package" to take away and destroy/hide.
The fact that these two (JR and pilot/friend) are now blathering about the "family friend" is suspect.
I understand that pilot/friend had marital trouble, and got divorced. True? Anyone know? If that is the case, hmmmmm. Wonder why she was upset with hubby?
I try to picture the emotions and adrenaline in the house early that morning before JB was found. I picture FW, called by the Rs themselves to the house, hearing the horrible news that JB had been kidnapped. Thoughts racing everywhere- the horror of a good friend's child, a little girl you knew and who played with your own little girl- gone- Christmas night. Breath coming quicker, heart rate up, blood pressure up, adrenal glands going into overdrive. And he is asked to take the Rs remaining child to his own home. Obviously the Rs trusted him enough for that. He made some level of small talk just to ease the child. Understandably, BR talks about his favorite present - his Nintendo, and this was a good choice for something that was easy to take with him and could occupy his mind while there.
THEN- after FW returns to the R house, he experiences the horror of seeing that same little girl, obviously NOT kidnapped, but DEAD, stiff and gray with a cord around her neck so deep that it made furrows in her skin, arms pulled by rigor mortis into a grotesque parody of a self-defense pose, up in front of her face like a tiny boxer. He also notices that JR, ahead of him by just steps, sees this sad corpse in a dark room before he even turns the light on. A room he himself had looked in hours before and saw nothing. So suspicions start to form, and JR sensed it.
Did he ask BR what he may have seen or heard that night? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends if he wanted to keep him distracted. Better leave that questioning to the police. However, if he did probe a bit, JR would surely have asked BR when they took him to the Fernie's (where they stayed when they left the house), BR may have told them FW asked questions and from that point on FW was someone to add to that list of faux-suspects.

DeeDee249,
When Fleet White returned to the wine-cellar for his third visit. I am certain he would not have missed the pink barbie nightgown, barbie doll, partially opened gifts along with the blanket lying on the floor.

With a dead JonBenet lying upstairs, obviously now the focus of attention FW decides to head down to the wine-cellar, why so? What did he see that he wanted to confirm?

I reckon he realized, given his cumulative observations, that JonBenet had been killed by an R. The staging must have been obvious, once it sank in JonBenet had never been kidnapped.

I'll bet you a cent to a dollar, once he returned to the wine-cellar and looked over the pink barbie nightgown, barbie doll, partially opened gifts along with the blanket lying on the floor, he thought How could I have missed all this on my first visit, never mind JonBenet?


.
 
The White's weren't the only people to have cut ties with the Ramsey's. I do believe, along with most, that Fleet White knows alot. I'm convinced of that. I also believe that the Fernies may feel the same. In, I believe the 2000 interview with John, he states that Barbara Fernie asked Patsy to not contact her anymore. John's reason was because it was too painful for them to be friends. I'm not believing that. The Fernies have been friends of the Ramseys and were not thrown under the bus like the White's were and they still cut the ties with the Ramseys, not the other way around. I believe that Pam Archuletta stated that her divorce from Paul was due to the fact that helping the Ramseys put a strain on their marriage. Unfortunately none of these couples have gone to LE to at the very least give any any any information that could be useful and that is a shame. I feel that if Fleet White has any pertinent information he has nothing to lose and he would be doing justice for jonbenet.
 
The White's weren't the only people to have cut ties with the Ramsey's. I do believe, along with most, that Fleet White knows alot. I'm convinced of that. I also believe that the Fernies may feel the same. In, I believe the 2000 interview with John, he states that Barbara Fernie asked Patsy to not contact her anymore. John's reason was because it was too painful for them to be friends. I'm not believing that. The Fernies have been friends of the Ramseys and were not thrown under the bus like the White's were and they still cut the ties with the Ramseys, not the other way around. I believe that Pam Archuletta stated that her divorce from Paul was due to the fact that helping the Ramseys put a strain on their marriage. Unfortunately none of these couples have gone to LE to at the very least give any any any information that could be useful and that is a shame. I feel that if Fleet White has any pertinent information he has nothing to lose and he would be doing justice for jonbenet.

momof4ws,
You could be right on the button. The unspoken remarks, or at least publicly, must have been someone molested JonBenet. Once the details became public, all the R's friends knew, including those paid to prote the R's agenda, so they all knew what was on the table.

With Fleet White it is possible JonBenet was not in the wine-cellar when he looked that morning.

Although he cannot prove this, and many think the lack of light or where JonBenet was positioned prevented him from seeing her.

But when you add in the other items that should not have been there, it is difficult to understand, how he missed a pink barbie nightgown, or a white blanket?

Fleet White probably has some theory that involves JR moving JonBenet into the wine-cellar during the period he vanished. Even if he is right, he cannot come out and state it, since I guess LW would sue him for defamation etc.


.
 
That must be some Melatonin John took, if he indeed say he "took A (meaning one) melatonin and heard nothing..." It sure takes more than one of the standard walmart or drugstore brand melatonin pills, i.e., 3mg., to put a dent in my wakefulness. LE should've confiscated the bottle he took one from, then slipped one to him and observed if it actually put him to sleep at all, let alone into a deep enough slumber to keep him from hearing the ruckus that fateful night!
 
momof4ws,
You could be right on the button. The unspoken remarks, or at least publicly, must have been someone molested JonBenet. Once the details became public, all the R's friends knew, including those paid to prote the R's agenda, so they all knew what was on the table.

With Fleet White it is possible JonBenet was not in the wine-cellar when he looked that morning.

Although he cannot prove this, and many think the lack of light or where JonBenet was positioned prevented him from seeing her.

But when you add in the other items that should not have been there, it is difficult to understand, how he missed a pink barbie nightgown, or a white blanket?

Fleet White probably has some theory that involves JR moving JonBenet into the wine-cellar during the period he vanished. Even if he is right, he cannot come out and state it, since I guess LW would sue him for defamation etc.


.
The wine cellar door opened out, according to john. I could possibly understand Fleet not seeing her body ifthe door opened in ie less light coming in. BUT the door opened out which may bring in more light in a larger area so I agree, she may have not even been there when he looked. So where was she previously? I say the train room...chair in front of the door, suitcase, odd marks on her body which were thought to be stun gun marks. Too suspicious.
 
That must be some Melatonin John took, if he indeed say he "took A (meaning one) melatonin and heard nothing..." It sure takes more than one of the standard walmart or drugstore brand melatonin pills, i.e., 3mg., to put a dent in my wakefulness. LE should've confiscated the bottle he took one from, then slipped one to him and observed if it actually put him to sleep at all, let alone into a deep enough slumber to keep him from hearing the ruckus that fateful night!

Funny you mention that...in the, i believe 1998 interview, john was asked if he normally slept good at night and he said he has always been a pretty good sleeper maybe waking up once to use the bathroom. No mention of taking melatonin on a regular basis though. He does make it a point to tell LE that he took a melatonin the night of the 25th.
 
The wine cellar door opened out, according to john. I could possibly understand Fleet not seeing her body ifthe door opened in ie less light coming in. BUT the door opened out which may bring in more light in a larger area so I agree, she may have not even been there when he looked. So where was she previously? I say the train room...chair in front of the door, suitcase, odd marks on her body which were thought to be stun gun marks. Too suspicious.

momof4ws,
Its difficult to say. My money would be on JonBenet inside something like a packing crate or suitcase. Something you would never consider on an initial search.

Normally when a crime-scene is staged, that is what happens, in this case, the crime-scene is alike a classic dump-site, with the corresponding forensic evidence absent to confirm this, consider those long beach depositions, no forensic evidence!

But JonBenet herself was staged e.g garrote applied, redressed and wiped down. This suggests the R's had plans other than the wine-cellar, since JonBenet as dressed does not match the crime-scene.

Even if it was an intruder, what does the intruder need with her pink barbie nightgown, or barbie doll, e.g. I'm assuming the intruder is leaving with JonBenet then decides to molest and kill her, so whats with the doll and gown? I do not think they are staging, they are prior evidence being dumped out of sight, indirectly confirming that the wine-cellar has not been staged.

I'll speculate JonBenet was staged in her own bedroom, then this was changed late in the morning, with the kidnapping scenario implemented, once down in the basement the garrote was added, that is the stick, the ligature may already have been applied upstairs?

I'd love to hear FW's theory, he must know some details that we do not?



.
 
We know JRB was in the kitchen area that night after the family got home. That's a fact. John and Patsy both thought it very odd that pineapple would be in the bowl that it was found in and with a serving spoon instead of teaspoon. Are they lying about giving it to her? IDK. It could very well be that JBR and Burke were up together and in the kitchen area snacking. Here is when I have a problem. You mentioned staging maybe in her bedroom. That means that the flashlight and ligature/garrot should be in the same vicinity right? Well the paint tray was in the basement so it would take time to go down to the basement and retrieve everything needed and go back up to her bedroom. I'm just thinking that everything happened pretty fast. Alot of thought had to have gone into everything that was done. I'm thinking that the staging might have been in the basement where most of the stuff was and the flashlight was used for guidance so as to not bring any attention to lights being on in their house. I speculate that JBR may have initially been in the suitcase possibly. I'm just really curious about the marks on her back and the side of her face as if she were rubbing or resting against something that caused those marks.
 
The White's weren't the only people to have cut ties with the Ramsey's. I do believe, along with most, that Fleet White knows alot. I'm convinced of that. I also believe that the Fernies may feel the same. In, I believe the 2000 interview with John, he states that Barbara Fernie asked Patsy to not contact her anymore. John's reason was because it was too painful for them to be friends. I'm not believing that. The Fernies have been friends of the Ramseys and were not thrown under the bus like the White's were and they still cut the ties with the Ramseys, not the other way around. I believe that Pam Archuletta stated that her divorce from Paul was due to the fact that helping the Ramseys put a strain on their marriage. Unfortunately none of these couples have gone to LE to at the very least give any any any information that could be useful and that is a shame. I feel that if Fleet White has any pertinent information he has nothing to lose and he would be doing justice for jonbenet.


True friends don't end the friendship over the tragic death of the child of one of them....UNLESS they know something about the involvement of the dead child's family in the death. That would be my take on it. "Too painful to be friends" is right. Too painful because discovering that JB's own family were involved in the death/coverup is a very painful thing, and incompatible with maintaining the friendship.
 
We know JRB was in the kitchen area that night after the family got home. That's a fact. John and Patsy both thought it very odd that pineapple would be in the bowl that it was found in and with a serving spoon instead of teaspoon. Are they lying about giving it to her? IDK. It could very well be that JBR and Burke were up together and in the kitchen area snacking. Here is when I have a problem. You mentioned staging maybe in her bedroom. That means that the flashlight and ligature/garrot should be in the same vicinity right? Well the paint tray was in the basement so it would take time to go down to the basement and retrieve everything needed and go back up to her bedroom. I'm just thinking that everything happened pretty fast. Alot of thought had to have gone into everything that was done. I'm thinking that the staging might have been in the basement where most of the stuff was and the flashlight was used for guidance so as to not bring any attention to lights being on in their house. I speculate that JBR may have initially been in the suitcase possibly. I'm just really curious about the marks on her back and the side of her face as if she were rubbing or resting against something that caused those marks.

They have to be lying about it. Even if only JB and her brother were sitting at that table, Patsy's prints are on the bowl. She had to have put it there. The autopsy found the pineapple in JB's small intestine, which the stomach empties directly into. It takes about 2 hours for a food like pineapple to get there from the time it is eaten. ALL digestion and metabolic processes STOP at death. NO ifs, ands or buts. She died about two hours after eating the pineapple, the Rs admit to getting home between 9-10 PM, and rigor mortis suggests she was dead about 12 hours when she was brought up at 1 PM the following day. Put it all together, and the likely timeframe is the pineapple snack was given to JB by Patsy within an hour or so of arriving home that night- around 10 PM, and by midnight to 1 AM JB was dead.

Don't forget about two VERY important facts of death- Livor mortis and rigor mortis. They are factual and cannot be waived or made to fit around different theories easily. The fact is that both livor and rigor prove she was not folded into a suitcase or hidden anywhere except flat on her back, legs out straight, head cocked to the right, EXACTLY the way she was found. Had she been in a different position before being put in the wineceller, there would be a different livor pattern. Had enough time lapsed, her limbs would begin to be locked into place by rigor and it would be impossible to put her legs and arms and head into the position she was found in without "breaking" rigor, which is difficult to do- and in addition, once "broken" early (without waiting the 36 hours for it to subside, which obviously did not happen) it WILL NOT RE-FORM. So this proves (once and for all) that she was not in that suitcase or in a freezer or in any other position other than the one she was found in.
However- she could have been in a different place, but still on her back, head to the right, and then moved into the wineceller during the "fixed" non-blanching stage of livor. But that would have been after the house was filled with people. VERY risky to have moved her from a different place.
The ONE explanation that would be possible is if she was further back in a deeper area of the wineceller, and later JR pulled her closer to the doorway, where she would be more easily seen. He could have simply pulled her along the floor by pulling the white blanket. Or lifted her the way he carried her upstairs- upright like a giant doll, since she was stiff at that point.
I just don't see it happening any other way from a purely scientific aspect. Forensics don't lie and can't be bended to fit a theory.
 
I keep coming back to why would Fleet White keep his mouth shut for John or Pasty.

What does he know? I also think that Burke said something to him on the drive back to his house.

Why would you protect your old friends? and continue to this day. The only reason I can think of is for Burke.

Burke exhibits several aspects of Autism. Pasty tells in a deposition that Burke didn't have many friends, was quite and kinda a loner. I'm not saying Burke is Autistic, just that he has some quirks of it.

Back in 1996 Autism was thought of in a much different light than it is today. What would Burkes life be like possibly locked up? That would of been a great burden for all of them to bear.

Jonbenet was missing,a crazy ransom note left behind and then found dead in her own home. He was sure she wasn't in the wine cellar when he looked,and then she was found there. None of it make sense until you factor in Burke.

Maybe Fleet White waited for the Ramsey's to fess up, but neither did. I bet if he had confronted John, and told him he was sure that either he or Pasty had killed JB , John might of blamed Burke and FW went along for Burke's sake.

As the days went by he would learn more disturbing details about what happened to JonBenet, but JonBenet was gone and what would happen to Burke by telling?

Can you imagine the size of your penis being bragged about by your mom and
grandmother to the world?

ILTBP
 
I keep coming back to why would Fleet White keep his mouth shut for John or Pasty.

What does he know? I also think that Burke said something to him on the drive back to his house.

Why would you protect your old friends? and continue to this day. The only reason I can think of is for Burke.

Burke exhibits several aspects of Autism. Pasty tells in a deposition that Burke didn't have many friends, was quite and kinda a loner. I'm not saying Burke is Autistic, just that he has some quirks of it.

Back in 1996 Autism was thought of in a much different light than it is today. What would Burkes life be like possibly locked up? That would of been a great burden for all of them to bear.

Jonbenet was missing,a crazy ransom note left behind and then found dead in her own home. He was sure she wasn't in the wine cellar when he looked,and then she was found there. None of it make sense until you factor in Burke.

Maybe Fleet White waited for the Ramsey's to fess up, but neither did. I bet if he had confronted John, and told him he was sure that either he or Pasty had killed JB , John might of blamed Burke and FW went along for Burke's sake.

As the days went by he would learn more disturbing details about what happened to JonBenet, but JonBenet was gone and what would happen to Burke by telling?

Can you imagine the size of your penis being bragged about by your mom and
grandmother to the world?


ILTBP

There used to be a website called blipdar where each college had a page, and people started topics talking crap about students. So I did a search for Burke Ramsey, and sure enough, someone has started a topic on Purdue's page about him. The opening post? It was something like: "Anyone know him? According to his mom and grandma, he's hung!" There weren't any replies though.
 
They have to be lying about it. Even if only JB and her brother were sitting at that table, Patsy's prints are on the bowl. She had to have put it there. The autopsy found the pineapple in JB's small intestine, which the stomach empties directly into. It takes about 2 hours for a food like pineapple to get there from the time it is eaten. ALL digestion and metabolic processes STOP at death. NO ifs, ands or buts. She died about two hours after eating the pineapple, the Rs admit to getting home between 9-10 PM, and rigor mortis suggests she was dead about 12 hours when she was brought up at 1 PM the following day. Put it all together, and the likely timeframe is the pineapple snack was given to JB by Patsy within an hour or so of arriving home that night- around 10 PM, and by midnight to 1 AM JB was dead.

Don't forget about two VERY important facts of death- Livor mortis and rigor mortis. They are factual and cannot be waived or made to fit around different theories easily. The fact is that both livor and rigor prove she was not folded into a suitcase or hidden anywhere except flat on her back, legs out straight, head cocked to the right, EXACTLY the way she was found. Had she been in a different position before being put in the wineceller, there would be a different livor pattern. Had enough time lapsed, her limbs would begin to be locked into place by rigor and it would be impossible to put her legs and arms and head into the position she was found in without "breaking" rigor, which is difficult to do- and in addition, once "broken" early (without waiting the 36 hours for it to subside, which obviously did not happen) it WILL NOT RE-FORM. So this proves (once and for all) that she was not in that suitcase or in a freezer or in any other position other than the one she was found in.
However- she could have been in a different place, but still on her back, head to the right, and then moved into the wineceller during the "fixed" non-blanching stage of livor. But that would have been after the house was filled with people. VERY risky to have moved her from a different place.
The ONE explanation that would be possible is if she was further back in a deeper area of the wineceller, and later JR pulled her closer to the doorway, where she would be more easily seen. He could have simply pulled her along the floor by pulling the white blanket. Or lifted her the way he carried her upstairs- upright like a giant doll, since she was stiff at that point.
I just don't see it happening any other way from a purely scientific aspect. Forensics don't lie and can't be bended to fit a theory.

Thanks for clearing that up(rigor/livor). Disproving stun gun theory would help. To me it should be a non issue because if you ever saw a person get stun-gunned...it doesn't silence them, it most likely hurts them and they yell out in pain...JRB would have screamed out in pain if a stun gun was used which her parents would definitely have heard so the intruder theory of a stun gun being used is preposterous to me. Your thought that maybe John moved her body so it would be more visible if someone were to open up the wine cellar door makes so much sense. Fleet didn't see her when he opened the door but John saw her right away. Makes sense! Complete sense!
 
Thanks for clearing that up(rigor/livor). Disproving stun gun theory would help. To me it should be a non issue because if you ever saw a person get stun-gunned...it doesn't silence them, it most likely hurts them and they yell out in pain...JRB would have screamed out in pain if a stun gun was used which her parents would definitely have heard so the intruder theory of a stun gun being used is preposterous to me. Your thought that maybe John moved her body so it would be more visible if someone were to open up the wine cellar door makes so much sense. Fleet didn't see her when he opened the door but John saw her right away. Makes sense! Complete sense!

momof4ws,
Do not be fooled with the rigor/livor issue. This only tells you within which time-frame JonBenet was not moved. Its not proof she was not relocated by John Ramsey.

Similar applies to the garrote. Just because the garrote was constructed in the basement, it does not follow that JonBenet was strangled in the basement. This could have happened upstairs, with the garrote added later downstairs as staging, as nearly everything else was on JonBenet.

Nobody has yet explained why only the garrote should not be staging yet nearly everything else is?

.
 
momof4ws,
Do not be fooled with the rigor/livor issue. This only tells you within which time-frame JonBenet was not moved. Its not proof she was not relocated by John Ramsey.

.

I hope you are not insinuating I am trying to "fool" anyone. This scientific FACT. You can't change it to suit your own theory. I didn't say she couldn't have been moved, but there are forensic limits to how and when. She absolutely could not have been placed in a suitcase. Livor starts fairly soon, with the blood settling to the lowest (closest to the floor/ground) areas of the body. Had she been folded into a suitcase first, (before rigor began) there would be a livor pattern indicating that. And if she was then placed on her back in the wineceller, there would be either 1. a second livor pattern formed on the back of her body and right side of her face SUPERIMPOSED over the first livor pattern during the NON-Fixed stage (blanching) or 2. if she was put in the wineceller after the first pattern was "fixed". the FIRST pattern from the folded position of the body would be the ONLY pattern.
The ONLY pattern found on her body was the pattern indicating she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, legs straight out. She had to be placed in that position, not necessarily in the place she was found, but IN THAT POSITION, within minutes of death. Rigor wouldn't form that soon, but livor would. Once formed, it can't be "erased". The first pattern doesn't disappear when a second or even third pattern forms. They just superimpose on each other, as if you laid transparent colored fabric over something. The top layers don't hide the first layer, you can still see it through the other layers.
This isn't subjective. This is science.
I'll try to explain again:
JR could have moved her from the deeper area of the wineceller to an area closest to the door at any time without disturbing the livor or rigor by simply pulling her along the floor. Had he picked her up during the early livor stage, a second pattern would form, so he couldn't have actually picked her up during that phase without the coroner finding this. If he waited, and this could have been during his "unaccounted for" time between 10 am and noon or so, the livor would be fixed and he could have moved her without a second pattern forming. However, by then, rigor was formed, so he could pick her up but her body would have been stiff and her limbs locked into position. He was risking being seen by that time, because LE, as well as his friends, clergy, etc. were all over the house and there was a risk he would be seen if he had to carry her from another area of the house or basement.

Bottom line if you are going to consider scientific fact and not unproven theories?

Yes, she could have been moved, but ONLY from one area of the room to another and ONLY if her body was pulled along the floor.
And at no time could she have been placed in a suitcase after death- for all the above reasons. There is simply no clearer way to explain why other that what I have stated.
Livor/rigor confusing? Maybe, but that doesn't mean they can be disregarded or ignored.
 
I don't think he knows squat. If he DID, then he would have told the police, and Patsy's butt would have been in the slammer. I just don't buy this whole Ramseys are the Kennedys and God-like in power stuff. I just don't. I'm sure White had his ideas, but no way did he see anything of value, like an empty wine cellar, and then, cringing in fear and awe of JR*snicker*, decide to remain quiet.

It's very possible that JBR was originally pushed back deeper into the wine cellar and then JR pulled her forward, as DeeDee has suggested. I guess it's also possible that she was originally staged in her own bed, and then later moved after the pals were called, but this would have been very risky.

I believe the postmortem lividity proves that she wasn't balled up in a suitcase, period. (Although I am surprised the Ramseys didn't try that one and then drop her off the plane, really. They are that freaky.)
 
I hope you are not insinuating I am trying to "fool" anyone. This scientific FACT. You can't change it to suit your own theory. I didn't say she couldn't have been moved, but there are forensic limits to how and when. She absolutely could not have been placed in a suitcase. Livor starts fairly soon, with the blood settling to the lowest (closest to the floor/ground) areas of the body. Had she been folded into a suitcase first, (before rigor began) there would be a livor pattern indicating that. And if she was then placed on her back in the wineceller, there would be either 1. a second livor pattern formed on the back of her body and right side of her face SUPERIMPOSED over the first livor pattern during the NON-Fixed stage (blanching) or 2. if she was put in the wineceller after the first pattern was "fixed". the FIRST pattern from the folded position of the body would be the ONLY pattern.
The ONLY pattern found on her body was the pattern indicating she was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, legs straight out. She had to be placed in that position, not necessarily in the place she was found, but IN THAT POSITION, within minutes of death. Rigor wouldn't form that soon, but livor would. Once formed, it can't be "erased". The first pattern doesn't disappear when a second or even third pattern forms. They just superimpose on each other, as if you laid transparent colored fabric over something. The top layers don't hide the first layer, you can still see it through the other layers.
This isn't subjective. This is science.
I'll try to explain again:
JR could have moved her from the deeper area of the wineceller to an area closest to the door at any time without disturbing the livor or rigor by simply pulling her along the floor. Had he picked her up during the early livor stage, a second pattern would form, so he couldn't have actually picked her up during that phase without the coroner finding this. If he waited, and this could have been during his "unaccounted for" time between 10 am and noon or so, the livor would be fixed and he could have moved her without a second pattern forming. However, by then, rigor was formed, so he could pick her up but her body would have been stiff and her limbs locked into position. He was risking being seen by that time, because LE, as well as his friends, clergy, etc. were all over the house and there was a risk he would be seen if he had to carry her from another area of the house or basement.

Bottom line if you are going to consider scientific fact and not unproven theories?

Yes, she could have been moved, but ONLY from one area of the room to another and ONLY if her body was pulled along the floor.
And at no time could she have been placed in a suitcase after death- for all the above reasons. There is simply no clearer way to explain why other that what I have stated.
Livor/rigor confusing? Maybe, but that doesn't mean they can be disregarded or ignored.

DeeDee249,
I hope you are not insinuating I am trying to "fool" anyone.
No not at all. I'm just flagging up the possibility that JonBenet was moved.


JonBenet was moved from upstairs to downstairs we do not know much about the sequencing of the redressing. So its quite possible she was relocated in the white blanket, the garrote could still be attached without removing the blanket. John could have easily moved her into the wine-cellar from another location late in the morning when he went missing.

I'm not claiming this is my theory etc, only an explanation for the evidence e.g. Fleet White says he never saw JonBenet on his first visit, so its valid to suggest JR moved JonBenet from some more obscure location and into the wine-cellar.

Maybe I should be more controversial and suggest as well as moving JonBenet JR added the garrote at this point?


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