The Whites Party Photos and also When exactly did JBR die??

pageantmom

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Ok so in another thread I started ("Patsy's makeup") someone posted photos from the Whites Christmas party which was great since I'd neve seen those before. But, I have also heard on this forum peopl saying "oh I wish we could see photos from the White's party, it would explain so much" etc. I kind of don't get it...what do the party photos tell us?? Sorry if I sound dumb, I have read a lot of this forum and I've read two of the books about the case, but there are still things I don't know yet.

My other question....do we know when JonBenet actually died? Because maybe this sounds crazy..but what if she didn't die through the night at all? What if something happened during the Whites party or after it on the car ride home or something? Is that possible? I remember John Ramsey saying in a quote somewhere that they stopped at some various neighbors to drop off Christmas gifts...did any neighbor see JBR get out of the car, move, etc? Am I nuts for thinking it may have happened much earlier than previously thought, and maybe more adults knew about it than just the Ramseys? Or maybe I just need to get some sleep. :p
 

BOESP

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If I am following the correct threads, the photos you mention as being at the Whites were from a party the Ramseys had at their house a few days before Christmas. This is the one with JonBenet in the black velvet dress and the one with Santa and the children. If I've assumed wrong about which photos you meant, please accept my apology in advance. To my knowledge the photos from the White's party on the night of December 25th have never been released to the public.

ETA: based on the rigor JonBenet was found in and the location of partially digested pineapple in her duodenum, she died some time after 10 PM and probably no later than midnight on Christmas night. By all known statements, that would place JonBenet in her own home. There isn't a lot of leeway pointing to anything other than JonBenet died in her own home.
 

KoldKase

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Those photos on the other thread were from the Ramsey Christmas party for the children on Dec. 23rd. That was the one with Santa McReynolds--oh, how he must have rued the day he was part of that group.

I am not aware of any photos released from the White's party. Since the Whites, their children, and other family members were present, I guess no one wanted to release photos and drag them into this awful, public mess any worse than Team Ramsey already did in their horrific trashing of that family through the years.

But it would tell us so much if we could see the Ramseys in those photos: what each actually wore to that party, how JB's hair was styled, etc.

I doubt it will ever happen, though.

If the child had died somewhere else and then been moved about, livor mortis would have presented in a way the medical examiner would have known that.

Because of the condition of the body, so far as I've ever seen it was determined that she died in the Ramsey house.
 

eileenhawkeye

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I also think JBR most likely died on 12/25 because Patsy was still wearing the clothes she had worn to the Whites' party when LE came on 12/26. The murder had to have happened pretty soon after they came home since Patsy hadn't changed out of her clothes yet.
 

KoldKase

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But now that you mention it, after all the photos that have leaked through the years, most from Lou Smit and Team Ramsey, who had them after Smit copied case files and photos onto a DVD and then made copies for himself after he resigned from the DA's Office shortly after Thomas resigned from the BPD.

Smit paraded those he chose to share with the media, to put forth his "intruder" theory, not long after the Spring of 2000, when the Ramseys and Thomas both released books on the case.

But for some reason, no picture of any Ramsey from that party was ever released by Smit or his little toadies.

So why not? Was there something about the Ramseys they didn't want the public to see in those pictures? Not releasing pics of Burke I get. But they certainly weren't shy about releasing photos of a murdered child taken at her autopsy, so why not photos of her at the Party, or Patsy and John?

Not ONCE did I ever hear a Ramsey protest the release of those photos by Smit, so "sensitivity" won't wash with me.

Hm.
 

eileenhawkeye

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But now that you mention it, after all the photos that have leaked through the years, most from Lou Smit and Team Ramsey, who had them after Smit copied case files and photos onto a DVD and then made copies for himself after he resigned from the DA's Office shortly after Thomas resigned from the BPD.

Smit paraded those he chose to share with the media, to put forth his "intruder" theory, not long after the Spring of 2000, when the Ramseys and Thomas both released books on the case.

But for some reason, no picture of any Ramsey from that party was ever released by Smit or his little toadies.

So why not? Was there something about the Ramseys they didn't want the public to see in those pictures? Not releasing pics of Burke I get. But they certainly weren't shy about releasing photos of a murdered child taken at her autopsy, so why not photos of her at the Party, or Patsy and John?

Not ONCE did I ever hear a Ramsey protest the release of those photos by Smit, so "sensitivity" won't wash with me.

Hm.

You would think the R's would want to release at least some pictures of JBR from that party (or the entire family) for the sympathy angle--here, we are, a normal full family only hours before an intruder destroyed our lives. There was even a new picture of JBR from Xmas morning on the cover of Smit's new book, so why not a picture from later on in the day?

Is it true that JonBenet was not feeling well during the party? I thought I read that somewhere.
 

cynic

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You would think the R's would want to release at least some pictures of JBR from that party (or the entire family) for the sympathy angle--here, we are, a normal full family only hours before an intruder destroyed our lives. There was even a new picture of JBR from Xmas morning on the cover of Smit's new book, so why not a picture from later on in the day?

Is it true that JonBenet was not feeling well during the party? I thought I read that somewhere.
Have a look here...
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127992"]Was JonBenet feeling sick Christmas day and if so why would the R's deny this? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 

pageantmom

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Thanks for answering my questions and not minding my ignorance of the case..lol.

Ok so those party pics are from the Ramseys party NOT the Whites party....and still no photos to be seen of the Whites party.

I have been reading here more and read about JB wearing a ponytail for the top/front part of her hair and then another ponytail for the bottom of her hair, and seeing the Whites party pics would tell us if that is how she wore her hair to the Whites party, or, if someone changed her hair later. I'm going to assume someone changed her hair later just because as the mother of a little girl I would not have her go to a party wearing two different hair bands that dont even match and don't match her outfit either. I mean really? How hard is it to put on a matching bow? I mean even when my daughter picks out her own things she knows to match everything lol. So I'm assuming her hair was changed after the party?
If it was changed later, was it to hide the head injury?? If so, I kind of don't understand the need to change her hairstyle to hide a head injury, because, I read that the person who did the autopsy was surprised by the head injury ..like, it wasn't visible at all from the outside.
 

Venom

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Thanks for answering my questions and not minding my ignorance of the case..lol.

Ok so those party pics are from the Ramseys party NOT the Whites party....and still no photos to be seen of the Whites party.

I have been reading here more and read about JB wearing a ponytail for the top/front part of her hair and then another ponytail for the bottom of her hair, and seeing the Whites party pics would tell us if that is how she wore her hair to the Whites party, or, if someone changed her hair later. I'm going to assume someone changed her hair later just because as the mother of a little girl I would not have her go to a party wearing two different hair bands that dont even match and don't match her outfit either. I mean really? How hard is it to put on a matching bow? I mean even when my daughter picks out her own things she knows to match everything lol. So I'm assuming her hair was changed after the party?
If it was changed later, was it to hide the head injury?? If so, I kind of don't understand the need to change her hairstyle to hide a head injury, because, I read that the person who did the autopsy was surprised by the head injury ..like, it wasn't visible at all from the outside.

I understand what you mean, I have 2 little girls and like to have things match. I think that the ponytail she wore to the party was her sides and front up and the second ponytail was put in after she got home as she got ready for bed. I don't believe she was asleep after getting home. Maybe she did fall asleep in the car, but I think she was awake from the car into the house. JR said he read her a book, and PR said she sang her a lullaby so I think she was awake for that. Unless they made that up to make the night seem "normal." MOO
 

pageantmom

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Ok that bothered me too, JR saying he carried her inside because she was asleep, and then later he said he laid her in her bed and read to her for a few minutes. He didn't say, "and then she woke up so I read to her", he just said he carried her inside asleep and then later he said he read to her in bed. I don't know how to find that part of the interview.. But that bothered me. Either she was asleep or she wasn't, either you read to her or you didn't. I don't sit there reading to my child if she is already ASLEEP...
 

Chelly

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Ok that bothered me too, JR saying he carried her inside because she was asleep, and then later he said he laid her in her bed and read to her for a few minutes. He didn't say, "and then she woke up so I read to her", he just said he carried her inside asleep and then later he said he read to her in bed. I don't know how to find that part of the interview.. But that bothered me. Either she was asleep or she wasn't, either you read to her or you didn't. I don't sit there reading to my child if she is already ASLEEP...

In BR's police interview he said JB walked into the house.
 

Venom

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Ok that bothered me too, JR saying he carried her inside because she was asleep, and then later he said he laid her in her bed and read to her for a few minutes. He didn't say, "and then she woke up so I read to her", he just said he carried her inside asleep and then later he said he read to her in bed. I don't know how to find that part of the interview.. But that bothered me. Either she was asleep or she wasn't, either you read to her or you didn't. I don't sit there reading to my child if she is already ASLEEP...

My thoughts exactly.
 

KoldKase

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Ok that bothered me too, JR saying he carried her inside because she was asleep, and then later he said he laid her in her bed and read to her for a few minutes. He didn't say, "and then she woke up so I read to her", he just said he carried her inside asleep and then later he said he read to her in bed. I don't know how to find that part of the interview.. But that bothered me. Either she was asleep or she wasn't, either you read to her or you didn't. I don't sit there reading to my child if she is already ASLEEP...

I have never seen the police reports written by the BPD of what the Ramseys said to them when questioned that morning at the home, separately, I believe.

I think we only have that information from the books written and what the Ramseys later said in their various interviews and wrote in their book.

I believe Thomas wrote that John told an officer that morning while they were in the house awaiting the ransom call that he read to JB. Later John denied saying this.

Patsy is reported in Thomas' book to have told LE that morning that JB was wearing the red turtleneck when she went to bed, but Patsy later denied ever saying that, as well.

I don't think Thomas would have lied about the reports. Of course, the police officers writing the reports could have mistaken what the Ramseys were saying, or the Ramseys could have actually given differing versions of those events that morning.

I doubt we'll ever know exactly what the truth is.

But it's pretty important to know what a kidnap victim was wearing when kidnapped, especially a child. So the most logical thing I can imagine is Patsy went into one of her long, winding stories about what JB was wearing and mentioned the red turtleneck, possibly with the story we've now heard about the argument they had over her wearing it to the White's party the night before. Maybe Patsy didn't get to "finish" the story as no doubt people were moving around and things were confused. Or maybe the police officer didn't get the full story written, was interrupted, etc.

Remember that red turtleneck was found on the vanity in JB's bathroom, wet and wadded up.

All to say that a "best guess" is often what we have in this case because the Ramseys changed their stories many times that we can see ourselves.

So JR and Patsy stuck to a final story that JB was asleep and carried to bed. Burke says she walked. Obviously if she was asleep, JR wouldn't have read to her. He later said he read HIMSELF when he went to bed and maybe that's what cops got confused.

The most accurate thing we can take away from this is the Ramsey's stories were often inconsistent and continue to be to this day.

That's a huge red flag because the truth doesn't change.
 

oldspice

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Maybe JonBenet was killed around 2am when the witness Melody Stanton said she heard a scream.
 

SapphireSteel

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Ok so in another thread I started ("Patsy's makeup") someone posted photos from the Whites Christmas party which was great since I'd neve seen those before. But, I have also heard on this forum peopl saying "oh I wish we could see photos from the White's party, it would explain so much" etc. I kind of don't get it...what do the party photos tell us?? Sorry if I sound dumb, I have read a lot of this forum and I've read two of the books about the case, but there are still things I don't know yet.

My other question....do we know when JonBenet actually died? Because maybe this sounds crazy..but what if she didn't die through the night at all? What if something happened during the Whites party or after it on the car ride home or something? Is that possible? I remember John Ramsey saying in a quote somewhere that they stopped at some various neighbors to drop off Christmas gifts...did any neighbor see JBR get out of the car, move, etc? Am I nuts for thinking it may have happened much earlier than previously thought, and maybe more adults knew about it than just the Ramseys? Or maybe I just need to get some sleep. :p

It would be great if you could post a link....:seeya:
 

UKGuy

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The R's would prefer you believe JonBenet died before midnight 12/25/1996, simples.

Check JonBenet's tombstone for confirmation.

The truth is slightly more convoluted and involves all three
Ramsey's.

.
 

DeeDee249

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Maybe JonBenet was killed around 2am when the witness Melody Stanton said she heard a scream.

Mrs. Stanton reported she heard the scream around midnight. We also have to consider the pineapple in her digestive tract and the stage of rigor mortis she was in. Taken as a whole, the time of death was between 11 pm and 1 am.
 

eileenhawkeye

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Mrs. Stanton reported she heard the scream around midnight. We also have to consider the pineapple in her digestive tract and the stage of rigor mortis she was in. Taken as a whole, the time of death was between 11 pm and 1 am.

The 11 PM - 1 AM time of death seems to point towards a family member. My guess is, that something happened before JonBenet went to bed or she got up after being put to bed.
 

UKGuy

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Thanks for answering my questions and not minding my ignorance of the case..lol.

Ok so those party pics are from the Ramseys party NOT the Whites party....and still no photos to be seen of the Whites party.

I have been reading here more and read about JB wearing a ponytail for the top/front part of her hair and then another ponytail for the bottom of her hair, and seeing the Whites party pics would tell us if that is how she wore her hair to the Whites party, or, if someone changed her hair later. I'm going to assume someone changed her hair later just because as the mother of a little girl I would not have her go to a party wearing two different hair bands that dont even match and don't match her outfit either. I mean really? How hard is it to put on a matching bow? I mean even when my daughter picks out her own things she knows to match everything lol. So I'm assuming her hair was changed after the party?
If it was changed later, was it to hide the head injury?? If so, I kind of don't understand the need to change her hairstyle to hide a head injury, because, I read that the person who did the autopsy was surprised by the head injury ..like, it wasn't visible at all from the outside.

pageantmom,
This case is littered with clues such as the hair-ties. On there own incidental accumulatively they all seem to add up to RDI?

The two main competing theories, as I see things, are PDI and BDI. PDI is the most obvious one with lots of supporting evidence along with Steve Thomas to lend support.

BDI now has Kolar behind it, and looks just as credible as PDI, whereas for years it limped in at third place.

Personally I reckon the White's photos are a smoking gun, just as any photos or video from Christmas morning might be. This I have itemized in my basic RDI theory.

Its a very big hint as to who did what on 12/25/1996.


.
 

otg

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pageantmom,
This case is littered with clues such as the hair-ties. On there own incidental accumulatively they all seem to add up to RDI?

The two main competing theories, as I see things, are PDI and BDI. PDI is the most obvious one with lots of supporting evidence along with Steve Thomas to lend support.

BDI now has Kolar behind it, and looks just as credible as PDI, whereas for years it limped in at third place.
Actually, UKG, I think the BDI theory limped in over most of the years at fourth place, behind PDI, JDI, and IDI. Believe it or not, there were more people who argued for IDI than there were who felt BDI. Or perhaps it was that the BDI folk were simply shamed into silence. Kolar has certainly added more merit to the theory by telling us things that were not known previously, but you still see posters who are reluctant to even acknowledge it as a possibility and try to stifle any discussion of it.


Personally I reckon the White's photos are a smoking gun, just as any photos or video from Christmas morning might be. This I have itemized in my basic RDI theory.

Its a very big hint as to who did what on 12/25/1996.
I wouldn't count on these pictures being any kind of smoking gun simply because they have been withheld from the public. They are simply part of the evidence that was gathered in police custody that they don't release to the public. While much of the pictures we do have was also in their custody, they didn't release them. They were simply leaked. These weren't. I don't think it's anything any more sinister than that.
 
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