The Whites Party Photos and also When exactly did JBR die??

questfortrue

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My guess is midnight. Just so some of the posters here (not you) will know that it is a conclusion based on studying this case and not a feeling (are you listening Chrishope :)), here's what I used to come to my best guess conclusion. :)

1. Midnight falls within the scientifically developed time frame based on digestion.

2. Patsy stated she usually got JonBenet up at midnight to potty (but said she didn't on the night JonBenet died; maybe she lied? maybe JonBenet was already dead by midnight?).

3. That Patsy stated she always turned on a nightlight and left JonBenet's door cracked so Patsy could hear JonBenet if she needed anything (but she didn't hear a thing that night; maybe she lied?)

4. That Patsy and John stated they got home 9-9:30 (depends on which version and from which participant you believe was accurate) then gave a list of things they did that imo would have put them in bed no earlier than 10:30 (and probably, for Patsy, no earlier than 11 PM).

5. That JonBenet would have never gone downstairs by herself at night and that she would have screamed bloody murder if some stranger tried to force her to do so.

6. And as DeeDee pointed out above, Melody Stanton reported hearing a scream around midnight.

Thank you. Very well explained.
 

BOESP

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If there were other pictures or a video taken that Christmas, and it was deleted, maybe it's because either JonBenet and/or Patsy appear upset on film due to what happened with the My Twinn doll.

Also, there was a new picture of JonBenet that Christmas morning on the cover of a book that came out last year about the case. But weren't we told for years that there were only two pictures of JBR taken that morning? Well, we know that wasn't true now...It's at least three.

The my Twinn doll is a good possibility or maybe the Ramseys wanted to destroy evidence of who was there that morning.

The warrants for the Boulder house have a Christmas ornament from a downstairs tree as being taken into evidence. Iirc, it is an angel ornament. Not sure exactly which room was meant but it was in a family living area.
 

Blue Bottle 01

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I wonder if the scarf in the photo was related to the scarf John Ramsey said he put in the casket with JonBenet? I always thought a scarf was a weird thing to put in a six-year-old's casket.


It's also a weird thing to give to all the members of a softball team, which Patsy did.
 

UKGuy

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If there were other pictures or a video taken that Christmas, and it was deleted, maybe it's because either JonBenet and/or Patsy appear upset on film due to what happened with the My Twinn doll.

Also, there was a new picture of JonBenet that Christmas morning on the cover of a book that came out last year about the case. But weren't we told for years that there were only two pictures of JBR taken that morning? Well, we know that wasn't true now...It's at least three.

eileenhawkeye,
For a family of the Ramsey's wealth and status not to record Christmas Day must suggest a red flag particularly when it just happens to coincide with the the death of JonBenet that same day.

The White's pictures can tell us how JonBenet was dressed, bulky velvet pants might suggest size-12's? The color of any hair ties and their position on her head can tell us if her hair was adjusted after she arrived back home.

In my basic RDI I have considered that the video recording equipment might have been used to record JonBenet, lets say, inappropriately? This might have happened after the pineapple snack, and the person doing the recording might be the owner of the collection of JonBenet photographs dumped down in the basement?

It is curious that we have next to no pictures of JonBenet, excepting the pink pajama photo, from 12/25/1996, so whats to hide?


.
 

ScarlettScarpetta

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eileenhawkeye,
For a family of the Ramsey's wealth and status not to record Christmas Day must suggest a red flag particularly when it just happens to coincide with the the death of JonBenet that same day.

The White's pictures can tell us how JonBenet was dressed, bulky velvet pants might suggest size-12's? The color of any hair ties and their position on her head can tell us if her hair was adjusted after she arrived back home.

In my basic RDI I have considered that the video recording equipment might have been used to record JonBenet, lets say, inappropriately? This might have happened after the pineapple snack, and the person doing the recording might be the owner of the collection of JonBenet photographs dumped down in the basement?

It is curious that we have next to no pictures of JonBenet, excepting the pink pajama photo, from 12/25/1996, so whats to hide?


.

It just doesn't. Lets just say that I am well aware of what it is like to have holidays in an affluent house hold and there are holidays where we just didn't.

This is not anything more than no pictures. You can not make something not existing some thing bad. It just does not exist. Why? Who knows? If anything if they had pictures they would show them because it shows probably a good holiday!

So because I did not take pics of my kids at the fair a few weeks ago, It means something? Nope. Just didn't.
 

Chrishope

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eileenhawkeye,
For a family of the Ramsey's wealth and status not to record Christmas Day must suggest a red flag

Wealth and status are irrelevant. What would tell us if there is a red flag or not is this - did the Ramseys usually record their holidays and special events ? If so, it's odd that they didn't do so this particular Christmas. If they often didn't bother with pics, then there is nothing unusual.

particularly when it just happens to coincide with the the death of JonBenet that same day.

Are you suggesting premeditation? Why then the pink PJ photo?

The White's pictures can tell us how JonBenet was dressed, bulky velvet pants might suggest size-12's? The color of any hair ties and their position on her head can tell us if her hair was adjusted after she arrived back home.

It seems most likely that someone at the Whites took at least some photos. But since JB is not the center of the universe for anyone outside the Ramsey household, the photos may not be of her, or if they are, may not reveal much. There may not be close-up photos of JBs pants to determine whether or not size 12s were worn. How JB was wearing her hair may not have been recorded for posterity. IOWs there may be pics of JB at the party, pics that haven't been released/leaked, but they may tell us absolutely nothing. People were at a party, not at a photo shoot.



In my basic RDI I have considered that the video recording equipment might have been used to record JonBenet, lets say, inappropriately? This might have happened after the pineapple snack, and the person doing the recording might be the owner of the collection of JonBenet photographs dumped down in the basement?

It is curious that we have next to no pictures of JonBenet, excepting the pink pajama photo, from 12/25/1996, so whats to hide?


.


Well, again, it's only curious if it's contrary to their usual habits. Establish that they habitually took photos, which shouldn't be difficult if it's the case, then you have a basis for saying it's curious.
 

Nom de plume

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Wealth and status are irrelevant. What would tell us if there is a red flag or not is this - did the Ramseys usually record their holidays and special events ? If so, it's odd that they didn't do so this particular Christmas. If they often didn't bother with pics, then there is nothing unusual.



Are you suggesting premeditation? Why then the pink PJ photo?



It seems most likely that someone at the Whites took at least some photos. But since JB is not the center of the universe for anyone outside the Ramsey household, the photos may not be of her, or if they are, may not reveal much. There may not be close-up photos of JBs pants to determine whether or not size 12s were worn. How JB was wearing her hair may not have been recorded for posterity. IOWs there may be pics of JB at the party, pics that haven't been released/leaked, but they may tell us absolutely nothing. People were at a party, not at a photo shoot.






Well, again, it's only curious if it's contrary to their usual habits. Establish that they habitually took photos, which shouldn't be difficult if it's the case, then you have a basis for saying it's curious.

It most certainly was unusual that they didn't that year. JR says in DOI that he ALWAYS set up the video camera, and lights, and took many photos as well. He says he grew up with his father doing this, and no one was allowed to open gifts until the video was taping. He said that he did this every year too, except 1996. His excuse was that he just wanted to enjoy the day and not worry about recording it on film.

Guess that's just one more odd coincidence that the one year he didn't was JB's last Christmas, and last day on earth. Uh huh....sure it was. I'd bet there were pictures, but the roll that showed someone that they said wasn't there, was destroyed or hidden. Video too. IMO that's the only reason that makes any sense.
 

Chelly

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It appears the 1996 Christmas season at the Ramsey home was way out of the ordinary long before JB was murdered.
 

2 percent

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It appears the 1996 Christmas season at the Ramsey home was way out of the ordinary long before JB was murdered.

Didn't I read somewhere that Patsy's 40th birthday was soon after that Christmas? I imagine it was weighing on her mind a bit.
 

Chelly

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Didn't I read somewhere that Patsy's 40th birthday was soon after that Christmas? I imagine it was weighing on her mind a bit.

Her birthday party was Nov 30.

A comic dressed up like the girl who beat Patsy out for the Miss America crown did a three minute spoof from material supplied by Nedra.


MIKE KANE: Do you have any follow
22 up, Lou?
23 LOU SMIT: No. I don't believe
24 so.
25 I did have one follow-up question
0469
1 and that was in regards to the Brown Palace.
2 There was mention in one of the reports about a
3 comedian, some comedian that somebody had hired
4 for that.
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla hired. It
6 was a -- he dressed up as Miss America. With a
7 beard, with a --
8 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he was
9 from Boulder here?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know where
11 he was from.
12 LOU SMIT: I was just wanting to
13 know if anybody knew his name?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know that we
15 did or would. I don't. I think Priscilla
16 arranged for it.
17 LOU SMIT: If you happen to hear
18 it, we can make a quick check on him.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...es-433-531.txt


MIKE KANE: On the -- I want to
24 talk about Patsy's birthday, there was a big
25 party down at the Browns, that's what I
0439
1 understand?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
3 MIKE KANE: And that was in
4 November?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was late
6 November, early December.
7 MIKE KANE: Who organized that?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla White.
9 I funded it, she planned it basically.
10 MIKE KANE: Did you take any role
11 in planning at all other than writing the check?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not much, other
13 than writing the check. Actually my idea was a
14 lot less elaborate than Priscilla's. I wanted
15 to go up to Boulderado and -- (INAUDIBLE). So I
16 actually my idea which got shot down.
17 MIKE KANE: What besides
18 Boulderado?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was the
20 main one. My idea was less than her, the scale
21 of the 800 -- the concept. Mine was less than
22 hers. But she (INAUDIBLE) with it.
23 MIKE KANE: I mean, you say you got
24 shot down. Obviously, you must have agreed at
25 some point that--
0440
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Priscilla is a
2 pretty forceful person. I mean just she was,
3 no, I can't do Boulderado. You know, it's got
4 to be -- out in Denver.
5 MIKE KANE: And how many people
6 were there?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: There was gosh,
8 50 maybe.
9 MIKE KANE: And what were the
10 arrangements I mean how did you all--
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they, she -- we
12 hired two Greyhound buses, as I recall, and
13 everybody met at a parking lot, where the bus
14 was and then we all got in the bus and both the
15 buses came over and pulled up in front of our
16 house and we got Patsy, I had arranged for Patsy
17 to go out for dinner just her and I, as I think
18 it was a belated anniversary dinner is how we
19 billed it so she was dressed to go out.
20 MIKE KANE: So it was a surprise?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I believe
22 it, yes, it was a surprise, the reason I believe
23 it was a surprise to her was that she was, that
24 she said herself this old wool dress was ready
25 to go up to a restaurant in the mountains, she
0441
1 said she would have in no way worn that dress,
2 if she knew what was up. So yeah, I believe it
3 was a surprise.
4 MIKE KANE: How did she react?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was, I
6 knew now, she was just excited. The kids came
7 on the bus.
8 MIKE KANE: The kids stayed at home
9 for the party?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...es-433-531.txt
 

2 percent

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Her birthday party was Nov 30.

A comic dressed up like the girl who beat Patsy out for the Miss America crown did a three minute spoof from material supplied by Nedra.

Ouch.

I just looked up her birthday and it was December 29th. To a woman who appears to be vain, the big 4 0 can be a hurdle. She may not have wanted cameras on her starting that year.

Just a thought.
 

questfortrue

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Her birthday party was Nov 30.

A comic dressed up like the girl who beat Patsy out for the Miss America crown did a three minute spoof from material supplied by Nedra.


MIKE KANE: Do you have any follow
22 up, Lou?
23 LOU SMIT: No. I don't believe
24 so.
25 I did have one follow-up question
0469
1 and that was in regards to the Brown Palace.
2 There was mention in one of the reports about a
3 comedian, some comedian that somebody had hired
4 for that.
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla hired. It
6 was a -- he dressed up as Miss America. With a
7 beard, with a --
8 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he was
9 from Boulder here?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know where
11 he was from.
12 LOU SMIT: I was just wanting to
13 know if anybody knew his name?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know that we
15 did or would. I don't. I think Priscilla
16 arranged for it.
17 LOU SMIT: If you happen to hear
18 it, we can make a quick check on him.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...es-433-531.txt


MIKE KANE: On the -- I want to
24 talk about Patsy's birthday, there was a big
25 party down at the Browns, that's what I
0439
1 understand?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
3 MIKE KANE: And that was in
4 November?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was late
6 November, early December.
7 MIKE KANE: Who organized that?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Priscilla White.
9 I funded it, she planned it basically.
10 MIKE KANE: Did you take any role
11 in planning at all other than writing the check?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not much, other
13 than writing the check. Actually my idea was a
14 lot less elaborate than Priscilla's. I wanted
15 to go up to Boulderado and -- (INAUDIBLE). So I
16 actually my idea which got shot down.
17 MIKE KANE: What besides
18 Boulderado?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was the
20 main one. My idea was less than her, the scale
21 of the 800 -- the concept. Mine was less than
22 hers. But she (INAUDIBLE) with it.
23 MIKE KANE: I mean, you say you got
24 shot down. Obviously, you must have agreed at
25 some point that--
0440
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Priscilla is a
2 pretty forceful person. I mean just she was,
3 no, I can't do Boulderado. You know, it's got
4 to be -- out in Denver.
5 MIKE KANE: And how many people
6 were there?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: There was gosh,
8 50 maybe.
9 MIKE KANE: And what were the
10 arrangements I mean how did you all--
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they, she -- we
12 hired two Greyhound buses, as I recall, and
13 everybody met at a parking lot, where the bus
14 was and then we all got in the bus and both the
15 buses came over and pulled up in front of our
16 house and we got Patsy, I had arranged for Patsy
17 to go out for dinner just her and I, as I think
18 it was a belated anniversary dinner is how we
19 billed it so she was dressed to go out.
20 MIKE KANE: So it was a surprise?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I believe
22 it, yes, it was a surprise, the reason I believe
23 it was a surprise to her was that she was, that
24 she said herself this old wool dress was ready
25 to go up to a restaurant in the mountains, she
0441
1 said she would have in no way worn that dress,
2 if she knew what was up. So yeah, I believe it
3 was a surprise.
4 MIKE KANE: How did she react?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was, I
6 knew now, she was just excited. The kids came
7 on the bus.
8 MIKE KANE: The kids stayed at home
9 for the party?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...es-433-531.txt

Thanks for posting this. The comic was actually a female impersonator/transvestite, and I remember wondering where the investigators were going with this interview. I took away just a couple of things. It sounds from this interview as though the investigators were trying to get a “read” on the R marriage before JB’s homicide. Also, JR distances himself almost totally, except for paying for the party. Most people would want to claim at least a little part of the success of the party since this was put on for his wife. So I found JR’s response puzzling.

Then, although I’m not sure how much one can read into this, PR includes a comment from their Christmas letter of ’96 in which PR wrote, saying “thank you to all my “friends” and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I’ve ever had!” Noted friends was in quotation marks. It sounded somewhat appreciative. OTOH, if a spouse endorses (by paying the bill) something which was a back-handed attention getter, it might cause some tension. A female impersonator with a beard, wouldn’t be something a woman might find too entertaining, especially on the big 4-0. But JR had an out. He could blame it on PW. moo
 

Blue Bottle 01

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Thanks for posting this. The comic was actually a female impersonator/transvestite, and I remember wondering where the investigators were going with this interview. I took away just a couple of things. It sounds from this interview as though the investigators were trying to get a “read” on the R marriage before JB’s homicide. Also, JR distances himself almost totally, except for paying for the party. Most people would want to claim at least a little part of the success of the party since this was put on for his wife. So I found JR’s response puzzling.

Then, although I’m not sure how much one can read into this, PR includes a comment from their Christmas letter of ’96 in which PR wrote, saying “thank you to all my “friends” and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I’ve ever had!” Noted friends was in quotation marks. It sounded somewhat appreciative. OTOH, if a spouse endorses (by paying the bill) something which was a back-handed attention getter, it might cause some tension. A female impersonator with a beard, wouldn’t be something a woman might find too entertaining, especially on the big 4-0. But JR had an out. He could blame it on PW. moo

Birds of a feather ...

PW and PR. Can you spell over-the-top?
 

Chrishope

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It most certainly was unusual that they didn't that year. JR says in DOI that he ALWAYS set up the video camera, and lights, and took many photos as well. He says he grew up with his father doing this, and no one was allowed to open gifts until the video was taping. He said that he did this every year too, except 1996. His excuse was that he just wanted to enjoy the day and not worry about recording it on film.

Guess that's just one more odd coincidence that the one year he didn't was JB's last Christmas, and last day on earth. Uh huh....sure it was. I'd bet there were pictures, but the roll that showed someone that they said wasn't there, was destroyed or hidden. Video too. IMO that's the only reason that makes any sense.


Thank you for that. You have established the usual pattern, and we can say that the usual pattern was not followed.

What you suggest is very possible. But it's also possible they just didn't feel like taking video, just as claimed.

As far as pictures (snaps, photos) as opposed to video, there is a pic of her in her PJs. An innocent enough picture. Why just the one ?

If you want to suggest someone else being there, someone who it was claimed was not present, then you almost have to be saying that "someone" was involved in the murder and/or coverup. Otherwise there is no problem with that person being there. So at that point the "solution" to the crime involves a mysterious "someone" who was also at the house. Certainly this is possible, but what evidence, other than lack of evidence, might lead us to think that?

Since we are basically exercising our minds by making inferences based on the lack of pics/vids, what if anything would you make of the lack of photos (vice video) ? I would conjecture that if they took snaps that day, a great many were as innocent as the PJ photo. Why not reveal them in order to make things seem more "normal" ?

Revisiting the matter of the lack of photos from the White's party - it would have been nearly impossible for the Rs to control picture taking at other people's house, and impossible to keep the pictures from surfacing. Seems to me the most likely explanation is that the pics exist, but have not been made public. (I believe OTG pointed this would a week or so ago. I agree with him)
 

Nom de plume

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Thank you for that. You have established the usual pattern, and we can say that the usual pattern was not followed.

What you suggest is very possible. But it's also possible they just didn't feel like taking video, just as claimed.

As far as pictures (snaps, photos) as opposed to video, there is a pic of her in her PJs. An innocent enough picture. Why just the one ?

If you want to suggest someone else being there, someone who it was claimed was not present, then you almost have to be saying that "someone" was involved in the murder and/or coverup. Otherwise there is no problem with that person being there. So at that point the "solution" to the crime involves a mysterious "someone" who was also at the house. Certainly this is possible, but what evidence, other than lack of evidence, might lead us to think that?

Since we are basically exercising our minds by making inferences based on the lack of pics/vids, what if anything would you make of the lack of photos (vice video) ? I would conjecture that if they took snaps that day, a great many were as innocent as the PJ photo. Why not reveal them in order to make things seem more "normal" ?

Revisiting the matter of the lack of photos from the White's party - it would have been nearly impossible for the Rs to control picture taking at other people's house, and impossible to keep the pictures from surfacing. Seems to me the most likely explanation is that the pics exist, but have not been made public. (I believe OTG pointed this would a week or so ago. I agree with him)

I think there are actually three photos of that Christmas morning. One of JB in PJs, one of PR, JB & BR, and another I just saw recently of JB waving her arms around with her new bike & PR's bike also showing.

I do think it's possible that "someone" else was there and involved in the murder. The lack of photo & video evidence is one reason, but an eye witness that swore he saw that "someone" is another. The eye witness suddenly changed his mind about who he swore he saw, IIRC, right after a visit from the RST. The fact that JR felt the need to "lawyer up" this "someone" and his sister, and mother, when they were all supposedly half way across the country at the time of the murder is more than a little odd to me too. This "someone's" alibi is pretty flimsy IMO as well.

As to the photos taken at the W's party; I'm sure there were some photos, probably all innocent enough, most likely not that many of JB either. I would guess they haven't been released because they might show a discrepancy in what JB was wearing that night.

:moo:
 

Chrishope

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I think there are actually three photos of that Christmas morning. One of JB in PJs, one of PR, JB & BR, and another I just saw recently of JB waving her arms around with her new bike & PR's bike also showing.

I do think it's possible that "someone" else was there and involved in the murder. The lack of photo & video evidence is one reason, but an eye witness that swore he saw that "someone" is another. The eye witness suddenly changed his mind about who he swore he saw, IIRC, right after a visit from the RST. The fact that JR felt the need to "lawyer up" this "someone" and his sister, and mother, when they were all supposedly half way across the country at the time of the murder is more than a little odd to me too. This "someone's" alibi is pretty flimsy IMO as well.

As to the photos taken at the W's party; I'm sure there were some photos, probably all innocent enough, most likely not that many of JB either. I would guess they haven't been released because they might show a discrepancy in what JB was wearing that night.

:moo:


Or maybe they just havn't been released? It's not likely that photos were taken at the party w/o the Rs being aware of it -in a general way. All they have to do is say she was redressed at bedtime, as was said of the ljs (I hope we can agree she didn't were ljs to the party) . The Rs, if co-conspirators can control the story line so there is no need to worry about a discrepancy between what was worn at the party and what was worn to bed.

You really think JAR's story is flimsy? Do you feel that Brad Miller and Chris Stanley are supplying JAR with a false alibi? They both place JAR with them at the movie starting at 10:30. You figure they are close enough to JAR to provide a false alibi? Brad adds to the deception by stating that JAR left his car at Brad's house and that JAR left Brad's at 1am? My take is that Brad and Chris are not likely to be lying for JAR.

There is no evidence of JAR traveling commercial and no evidence of a private flight. Even private planes have to file a flight schedule. How would JR fly him to Atlanta w/o the aircraft registration numbers ever appearing on a flight plan, or being seen by airport personnel ?

Why would Joe Barnhill be the only one to see JAR? If JAR were in Boulder he'd have to have remained in the R's house the whole time, otherwise he'd have been seen by others too, wouldn't he? No one else claims to have seen him the day Barnhill says he saw JAR.


Here's a question I don't have the answer to, but it would help us in deciding if JAR's alibi is good or not. When were the flight reservations made for the flight from Atlanta to MN? If they were made a day or two in advance then it's less likely they were arranged to provide an alibi. (unless you are positing a murder plan premeditated a few days in advance, suggesting that the murderer was also "selected" in advance? ) We do know JAR was on that flight leaving Atlanta at 8:30 am, IIRC.

Another question I don't know the answer to. What type of planes did JR own? A Cessna would travel about 140 mph, normal cruising speed (188 max). And a range of about 700 miles. It's 1230 miles from Boulder to Atlanta, as the crow flies. That's 8.5 hours one way, ( a bit more actually) or a 17 hour round trip. Even if JR managed to land at the Atlanta airport undetected so JAR could make his flight to MN, the trip had to begin 17 hours prior plus stopping for fuel (again w/o record). So JR would have had to fly JAR to Atlanta starting several hours before JBR was killed.

Of course, JR might have a Lear Jet, Say a LJ60 in which case the trip requires no fuel stop, and can be made at 500 miles per hour, making a 4 hour round trip (really a bit more than 4 hours) The problem here is that they would not have left CO until after the death, obviously, and some time for planning what to do. So say they left at 1am Boulder time, which is 3 am Atlanta time. That puts them at the Atlanta airport at 7am local time, plenty of time for JAR to catch the flight to MN. But JR still has to get back to CO which means about 4 more hours of flying, and even with the 2 hour time difference that gets him back in CO at 9am local time. By then the 911 cal was 3 hours old and the house was full of people, JR being one of them.

Of course, maybe the plane wasn't JR's and maybe JR wasn't the pilot. There still has to be a flight plan from Boulder to Atlanta with any necessary stops. Was this accomplished w/o record? How good a friend doe JAR have who is willing to be an accomplice after the fact ? Which friend who was also a pilot would have been in Boulder at the time?

Really, instead of spinning impossible to accomplish conspiracy theories involving at least 3 and possibly more people, isn't it simpler to accept that Joe Barnhill was mistaken?
 

Nom de plume

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Or maybe they just havn't been released? It's not likely that photos were taken at the party w/o the Rs being aware of it -in a general way. All they have to do is say she was redressed at bedtime, as was said of the ljs (I hope we can agree she didn't were ljs to the party) . The Rs, if co-conspirators can control the story line so there is no need to worry about a discrepancy between what was worn at the party and what was worn to bed.
What I find odd is that PR says they had a fight about what JB would wear, with PR wanting JB to match by wearing a red turtleneck. That same red turtleneck is found wet on the vanity the following morning. Now how was JB going to wear that red turtleneck if it was wet on the vanity? If it wasn't wet before the party, and wasn't worn at the party, then why was it (apparently) washed out in the sink that night? Makes no sense.

You really think JAR's story is flimsy? Do you feel that Brad Miller and Chris Stanley are supplying JAR with a false alibi? They both place JAR with them at the movie starting at 10:30. You figure they are close enough to JAR to provide a false alibi? Brad adds to the deception by stating that JAR left his car at Brad's house and that JAR left Brad's at 1am? My take is that Brad and Chris are not likely to be lying for JAR.
Yeah, I do think it's flimsy! You don't seem to have a problem thinking JR's $ worked for him with the DA, etc., so why can't it work in this instance too? IIRC, BM also has his pilot's license. Who's to say he wasn't in Boulder also and they both flew back together? Not saying he was, but it is possible.

There is no evidence of JAR traveling commercial and no evidence of a private flight. Even private planes have to file a flight schedule. How would JR fly him to Atlanta w/o the aircraft registration numbers ever appearing on a flight plan, or being seen by airport personnel ?
Simple. Rented or borrowed plane.

Why would Joe Barnhill be the only one to see JAR? If JAR were in Boulder he'd have to have remained in the R's house the whole time, otherwise he'd have been seen by others too, wouldn't he? No one else claims to have seen him the day Barnhill says he saw JAR.
Who says he was the only one? He may be the only one that came forward, but lots of people choose to keep quiet because they "don't want to get involved". Again, not saying anyone else did, but it's possible.

Here's a question I don't have the answer to, but it would help us in deciding if JAR's alibi is good or not. When were the flight reservations made for the flight from Atlanta to MN? If they were made a day or two in advance then it's less likely they were arranged to provide an alibi. (unless you are positing a murder plan premeditated a few days in advance, suggesting that the murderer was also "selected" in advance? ) We do know JAR was on that flight leaving Atlanta at 8:30 am, IIRC.

Another question I don't know the answer to. What type of planes did JR own? A Cessna would travel about 140 mph, normal cruising speed (188 max). And a range of about 700 miles. It's 1230 miles from Boulder to Atlanta, as the crow flies. That's 8.5 hours one way, ( a bit more actually) or a 17 hour round trip. Even if JR managed to land at the Atlanta airport undetected so JAR could make his flight to MN, the trip had to begin 17 hours prior plus stopping for fuel (again w/o record). So JR would have had to fly JAR to Atlanta starting several hours before JBR was killed.

Of course, JR might have a Lear Jet, Say a LJ60 in which case the trip requires no fuel stop, and can be made at 500 miles per hour, making a 4 hour round trip (really a bit more than 4 hours) The problem here is that they would not have left CO until after the death, obviously, and some time for planning what to do. So say they left at 1am Boulder time, which is 3 am Atlanta time. That puts them at the Atlanta airport at 7am local time, plenty of time for JAR to catch the flight to MN. But JR still has to get back to CO which means about 4 more hours of flying, and even with the 2 hour time difference that gets him back in CO at 9am local time. By then the 911 cal was 3 hours old and the house was full of people, JR being one of them.
BBM Recheck your math Chrishope. You said yourself, 4 hours ROUND TRIP. If the pilot, whoever it may have been (& no, I don't think it was JR), left Boulder at 1 am + 4 hrs flight time = 5am Boulder time. Actually more like 2.5 - 3 hr flight each way @ 500mph, but still enough time to be back for a 7am flight to MI IF there was any return flight.

Of course, maybe the plane wasn't JR's and maybe JR wasn't the pilot. There still has to be a flight plan from Boulder to Atlanta with any necessary stops. Was this accomplished w/o record? How good a friend doe JAR have who is willing to be an accomplice after the fact ? Which friend who was also a pilot would have been in Boulder at the time?
Both answered above.

Really, instead of spinning impossible to accomplish conspiracy theories involving at least 3 and possibly more people, isn't it simpler to accept that Joe Barnhill was mistaken?

I don't think it's a "conspiracy" theory to see that it's possible JAR was in CO that night. Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that everyone changed their story after a visit from the RST? I'd call that much more of a conspiracy! Melanie Stanton heard a scream, and then recanted. Joe Barnhill saw JAR, and then he recanted. Uh huh. Seems like it took the RST to make everyone see that they hadn't really heard or seen what they thought they had.
 

Chrishope

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What I find odd is that PR says they had a fight about what JB would wear, with PR wanting JB to match by wearing a red turtleneck. That same red turtleneck is found wet on the vanity the following morning. Now how was JB going to wear that red turtleneck if it was wet on the vanity? If it wasn't wet before the party, and wasn't worn at the party, then why was it (apparently) washed out in the sink that night? Makes no sense.

So what do you think this means?

Yeah, I do think it's flimsy! You don't seem to have a problem thinking JR's $ worked for him with the DA, etc., so why can't it work in this instance too? IIRC, BM also has his pilot's license. Who's to say he wasn't in Boulder also and they both flew back together? Not saying he was, but it is possible.

BM did have a license, as I recall. So you figure he might have been in Boulder, but Chris Stanley places both BM and JAR at the movies in Atlanta, so he has to be in on the conspiracy too. Then Lucinda and MR and her fiance have to be in on it as well, or else JAR slips into the house in the early morning hours w/o being noticed so that those 3 believe he'd been sleeping in the house all night. If Brad was not someone frequently in CO then his sighting may not have registered, but at the same time an unfamiliar face might stick out and draw attention? Which way do you read this? Additionally there is Harry Smiles who places JAR at Peachtree Presbyterian on the evening of the 25th for church services.

Simple. Rented or borrowed plane.

Ok, but there still has to be a flight plan, or a plane has to be landing at an airport "out of the blue" which would be noted. How many flights could there be from Boulder to Atl. ? Doesn't seem hard to check up on. Either they flew w/o filing a plan, then landed to refuel w/o a plan, then continued on w/o a plan and no air traffic controller ever spotted them or if they did never inquired who they were, or BM filed a plan neglecting to include BR as a passenger. Let's assume the latter as it's more likely than the former.

Who says he was the only one? He may be the only one that came forward, but lots of people choose to keep quiet because they "don't want to get involved". Again, not saying anyone else did, but it's possible.

So after 16 years no one who knows the importance of JAR's presence in Boulder on 12/25/96 has come forward? OK, possible. How loyal must every one of BRs acquaintances be that not one came forward. Or did he only see close friends and was very careful not to be spotted, except by Joe B.

BBM Recheck your math Chrishope. You said yourself, 4 hours ROUND TRIP. If the pilot, whoever it may have been (& no, I don't think it was JR), left Boulder at 1 am + 4 hrs flight time = 5am Boulder time. Actually more like 2.5 - 3 hr flight each way @ 500mph, but still enough time to be back for a 7am flight to MI IF there was any return flight.

Your right, I messed up the arithmetic, I was still thinking about the Cessna. It's possible, if it was a jet. Did JR have a jet? Did a friend have a jet? Could be. As you point out, there needn't necessarily have been a return trip, but there would still be an airplane in Atlanta, with markings, which would have been in CO according to it's prior flight plan. Shouldn't be to hard to check up on. Either it had to be flown back out before being spotted or someone had to ask "hey, where the hell did this Lear Jet (or Cessna, or whatever type plane) come from, the one with the number XXXYYY111222?



Both answered above.


I don't think it's a "conspiracy" theory to see that it's possible JAR was in CO that night. Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that everyone changed their story after a visit from the RST? I'd call that much more of a conspiracy! Melanie Stanton heard a scream, and then recanted. Joe Barnhill saw JAR, and then he recanted. Uh huh. Seems like it took the RST to make everyone see that they hadn't really heard or seen what they thought they had.

It's definitely a conspiracy theory because at a minimum CS/BM/and HS have to be providing a false alibi for BR. For the JAR theory to fly (no pun intended) there had to be at least 3 people, aside from JAR, in on the plot. Depending on circumstances you might have to include Lucinda, MR, and Stewart Long.

IMO, MS isn't credible because she thought it might have been negative energy. She's a flake and I don't put much stock in what she claims to have heard.

What do you think the RST did to change Joe B's mind? Death threat? $$$? Either are possible. Or did they just explain to Joe that JAR wasn't in CO and he accepted that and changed his story? Doesn't have to be true, but why would he change his mind merely on suggestion unless he wasn't all that certain to begin with? So do we have the power of suggestion? Bribery? Threats?

As far as I can tell the idea that JAR was in CO that night is based on Joe B's sighting, and a complete lack of evidence: no one else who saw JAR coming forward, the possibility that a JAR and/or JR might have had a friend with a plane and a license and that authorities couldn't figure out if a plane flew from Boulder to Atlanta despite it appearing in Atlanta and the prior plan indicating it last landed in Boulder. Only so much can be inferred from the lack of evidence. We have Joe B's sighting to support a JAR theory, and BM/CS/HS/MR/SL/Lucinda to claim he was in Atlanta that night as late as 1am.

I have to say I think you are trying much too hard for this JAR theory. We know he got on a plane at 8am or so on the morning of the 26th. The flight took off at 8:30. There are 3 non-family witnesses placing JAR in Atlanta on the night of the 25th. There are 3 family members who do likewise, along with soon to be family member SL. There is one person in CO who claims to have seen JAR that day. It seems to me the scale tips in favor of JAR being in Atlanta that night.

But ok, I'll agree that Brad might have been in Boulder, and that he might have flown a borrowed plane to Atlanta, perhaps with BR slipping aboard not officially on the manifest. The appearance of an unfamiliar plane at a small private airport might not have aroused suspicion. It all strikes me as much less likely than JAR being at the movies with his buddies.

WRT the movie ticket stub. It's often been remarked that there is something suspicious about JAR hanging on to the stub. Either one of his co-conspirators bought a 3rd ticket (it must have been Chris if Brad was flying) to give him an alibi, or he just stuck the stub in his pocket and happened to find it again later. If he's innocent, maybe he hung on to it realizing the importance of proving where he was? It seems another one of those things that can be read both ways.
 
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