the whites

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by ozazure, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. ozazure

    ozazure Active Member

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    I just read Kolar's book after reading here it was on kindle. It made me wonder if there is any one good resource that addresses the White's involvement from go to woe? I really don't know much about all that but it seemed like maybe they were one of the only personal advocates for JonBenet.
     


  2. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is safe to say that FW became suspicious fairly soon after arriving at the Rs that morning. He was the first to look IN the WC that morning (Officer French- the first LE on the scene- couldn't figure out how to open the door). FW saw nothing- unable to find the oddly placed wall switch for the WC lights. Later it was determined that there should have been enough ambient light from the hallway to see JB in that white blanket. Later, when FW followed JR into the room, she was right there near the doorway. (I believe JR moved her body closer to the door during the time he was "missing" from Det. Arndt's sight).
    FW was there to observe the Rs that morning and I believe his suspicions grew as he began to sort things out in his mind. The R's refusal to cooperate with police confused and angered him and a bitter fight resulted. The friendship was severed at that point. As soon as JR began to realize that FW suspected him (of at least a coverup) and suspected the Rs KNEW what happened, JR began to make veiled (and not so veiled) accusations against FW and PW. The intent was CLEAR that JR and his lawyers would actively pursue legal action against FW should he continue down that road, as well as naming him as a possible perp to LE. FW backed off, and to this day has remained silent. It is unknown how much of his suspicions were voiced to police or whether he will ever come forward with more information.
     
  3. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    the fact that FW was "visited" by the Ramsey team so early after the murder says a lot....they were afraid of what he had witnessed,wanted to know what he knows...it's not like they wanted to ask him about an intruder....JR says it himself in his depo,the team wasn't hired to look for the killer,they were hired to prepare a defence....it's obvious then why they were afraid of what FW has to say
     
  4. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    I hadn't really thought about this, but the fact that FW didn't see JonBenet...are we suggesting that she had been "hidden" out of the way to dispose of elsewhere later?

    Or simply hidden out of the way like how you push something away in an attempt to distance yourself from it without any real thought of what to do after.

    I'm thinking like how you push your dinner away when you've had enough, but without thinking "well, I'll have to take this to the kitchen later" or "someone take this away, I don't want to look at another mouthful".

    ??
     
  5. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Hmmm. Interesting. I always figured if the body had been moved it had originally been some other place -other than the WC.

    If JR is going to decide "now is the time to find her" and he knows she's in the WC, he doesn't really need her closer to the door. And of course, JR knows where the light switch is - though, if I recall correctly, FW said JR yelled before he switched on the light.
     
  6. ozazure

    ozazure Active Member

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    I'm not sure about the issue of visibility in the train room - I'm pretty sure in Kolar's book he says experiments showed that John wouldn't have been able to see her in the light conditions yet he exclaimed immediately upon opening the door, before he hit the light. So that potentially explains why FW wouldn't have seen her. Either way, something is up with how she is discovered in that room.
     
  7. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    She was in the wine cellar, not the train room. Long ago I had read that LE tested the ambient light that would shine into the dark wine cellar from the area just outside- if someone was standing at the door to the WC looking in to the dark room with the light coming in behind him. They had said that there should have been enough light to see at least the white blanket she was wrapped in had she been in the spot where JR "found" her later.
    However- the wine cellar was L-shaped. There was just a short section of the room i front of you as you stood at the doorway. To see "further" into the room, you had to step inside and look to your left. FW admitted he did not actually do this.
    Part of out problem is that we also don't know how LONG he looked. He may have given just a cursory glance, saw nothing and shut the door again. She MAY have been there, just a tad to the left, and he simply did not allow time for his eyes to adjust to the dark room. OR JR may have moved her a bit closer (sliding her along the floor still wrapped in the blanket).
    It is also possible that originally JR hid her deeper inside the house's most hidden room because he did not WANT her to be found. It is very possible that the Rs were under the (very mistaken ) impression that LE would leave them alone in the house at some point, after which they would decide how to tell them she had been returned or found. When it became apparent that LE were NOT going to just leave and allow the family to remain unsupervised inside the home, plans had to be adjusted or run the risk of having her rotting corpse found by cadaver dogs. NO open coffin with tiara and pageant dress. I think they never thought the whole house would be considered an active crime scene- since she had been "kidnapped" and was not supposed to be in the house. This is my theory as to why she was hidden only to be found later by JR. I have never felt they were going to dump her outside or leave her behind. Had that "escape" by plane that JR was prevented from doing actually happened, I believe he'd have sent someone he trusted into the house to "find" her.
     
  8. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Well, if they didn't expect cops to hang around, then it makes some sense that PR called 911 - not expecting the body would be found.

    Myself, I don't buy your theory. I don't see how reasonably intelligent people were going to think the cops would just take a few notes and then leave. Even if that would happen, they'd have to have anticipated tracking dogs (or cadaver dogs). Had dogs been brought in, the body would be found within minutes. (K9 unit was on standby, but never called in, so there is nothing far fetched about anticipating a K9 unit) They'd have had to anticipate undercover police surveillance of the house because they'd have to know they would be suspects in a missing child case. They'd have to have anticipated phone taps - which in fact happened. I don't think there is any reasonable argument to be made that their plan was to have the body discovered in the house after the police left. Once the police were called there is really no way for the body to be "returned" or later discovered in the house w/o the police knowing it had been there all along.
     
  9. deca

    deca New Member

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    I think they (eventually) decided that LE was going to find the body, or maybe another volunteer searches (White). But when that didn't happen and morning dragged on JR had to "find" her himself.
    The 911 call had to be done and at that time. Everyone knew they were getting up in the morning to fly out, so they should have noticed JBR missing at around that time. They really couldn't have made the call any later. JMO
     
  10. ozazure

    ozazure Active Member

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    sorry, i meant the wine cellar.

    i do think they expected her to be found and he was impatient for it to happen. i don't know if FW should have been able to see her and so she wasn't there at that point, or JR shouldn't have been able to see her and yet pretended he did. i think the latter makes more sense, he didn't need to move her to a more visible spot to find her himself. he just had to pretend he saw her when she wasn't visible to get the show on the road.
     
  11. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Some phone calls had to be made, but it didn't have to be the 911 call.

    It was their airplane, so they could have cancelled or delayed the flight at a whim. They could call the pilot, cancel the flight, and didn't even have to give a reason. If the two adult Rs were working together on a coverup, then they were in complete control of the timing of events, including the 911 call.

    The only two calls that had to be made were a call to the pilot to cancel their flight on their own aircraft, and a call to the adult kids who were to fly commercial to meet up in Mich.

    In both cases, the RN gives them the perfect "explanation" for cancellation, even if the explanation comes a day or two later.

    Since the flight had not been cancelled (or looking at it the other way -since the flight had been scheduled) this seems a good indication that the murder was not premeditated? At least not very far in advance.

    The 911 call did not have to be done until the next day, as per "tomorrow" in the RN. The threats of imminent death for JB if instructions were not followed to the letter provides them with the perfect cover for not calling as soon as they "discovered" that JB was missing.

    It is true that when they eventually call police they'll have to have made the "discovery" at about the time they'd normally get up. But the 911 call definitely didn't have to be made that morning.
     
  12. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the Rs expected tracking dogs or cadaver dogs to be used in the house. The main reason for claiming a "kidnapping" was to deflect suspicion AWAY from the house and the residents.
    As for the 911 call- I don't see how it could have been made any other time. By the next day she would have been considerably more decomposed, the smell would have been unmistakable to any LE who entered the house. I can see them canceling the flight (I assume this was done) but what would they have said to the adult kids? JB isn't coming along because she is kidnapped? But we haven't called police?
    In a more advanced stage of decomp, it would have been obvious to the coroner she had been dead LONG before the call. That would really have incriminated the Rs as it would have raised suspicions as to why they waited so long to call. Especially as the odor of death would be noticeable to the family.
     
  13. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    It would be a reasonable thing to anticipate. Tracking dogs would come to the house and get JBs scent. Even if this were done outside, with a piece of her clothing, the dogs would pick up the scent and make a b-line for the basement. I don't see how they could have not anticipated dogs. The dogs were in fact on standby. Even outside, the dogs are going to smell a body, and if they get her scent, they will know she's in the basement.

    Well first, you seem to be assuming they wanted the police to find the body in the house. Even if that's true, they still have some leeway in making the call. In point of fact the body wasn't "found" for 7 hours, and no one was complaining about the smell of a decomposing body.

    If they didn't want the body found in the house, then they were completely at liberty to wait and make the call the next day after the kidnappers failed to return the girl after the ransom drop -per the RN.

    They could have told the adult kids JB was kidnapped, and not to call authorities, and that they'd keep them updated. I doubt they would have. The obvious thing to tell them is one (or both) kids have the flu, or something along those lines.

    Well, that's true. If they waited until the next day, they'd have one rotten corpse to deal with. Of course TOD was established anyway, and we know it was several hours prior to the 911 call. So yes, if they actually wanted the body found in the house, they couldn't wait until the next day. We do know they could have waited until about 12 noon.

    Yes. But again, it's much more likely the plan was to dump the body, so the call didn't really need to be made at 5:52.


    It's theoretically possible they wanted the body found in the house, along with the phoney RN. IMO it's not very plausible, but it is possible.

    It really isn't even possible that their plan was to wait until the police left then "find" her, or claim she'd been "returned" by the kidnappers. Neither of the adult Ramseys were incapable of anticipating normal police practices. There was simply no way to pull that off and have it believed.

    The plan was either to dump the body (IMO by far the most likely plan) or to have the body found in the house along with a fake RN.
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Good points. Well we do have an aborted kidnapping. I reckon the R's expected JonBenet to be found quite quickly. This is after they have cleaned up as much forensic evidence as possible. With the Abduction Scenario they were simply making the best of a bad hand.

    JR knew full well with the kidapping staging he was creating a scene of plausible deniability, he continues to this day, co-opting religion to enhance his plausibility.

    The RN is the R's cover for not knowing where JonBenet is and why she was relocated to the wine-cellar. Nobody is claiming this is foolproof, its just that proving it wrong is difficult.

    Staging JonBenet's person at all, should be evidence enough that the R's fully expected her to be found.

    Use of a disposal site must mean JonBenet and all the forensic evidence should travel with her, and that this never be found again, since it all links back to the R's.

    So if you are going to dump JonBenet outdoors, how she is dressed, or if she is bleeding is secondary to this purpose. All that is required is something to wrap JonBenet in, as is the case in most homicides.

    .
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Chrishope,
    So patently the R's put JonBenet's date of death on her tombstone, because they knew you had worked out what the plan really was?



    .
     
  16. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

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    UK Guy - this post jiggled up my thoughts. BBM: Since there were fibers of the duvet cover (found in the Samsonite) discovered on both the front and back of JB's white star shirt, I wonder if we could consider that she was wrapped in this duvet at one time during the aftermath of the crime?

    Would it have been possible that after the head bash, she was wrapped in the duvet cover, and there was an attempt to place her in the Samsonite to be taken out of the house? Maybe not much staging of her body had been done at this point, as you suggested should have been the case if she was going to be dumped.

    But, it was discovered that putting her into the Samsonsite and taking her out of the house, for one reason or another, was not going to work out? And that's when the kidnapping ploy had to be altered to alerting police so her body could be discovered in the house? And, it if was going to be discovered in the house, the stager knew they would have to try to get rid of molestation evidence - with a jab, a cleansing, and additional redressing? Then rewrapped in the blanket from her bed to indicate that she had indeed been taken from her bed?

    As a result, the duvet cover was hastily stashed in the Samsonite, and the suitcase was positioned near the window so it would be considered as another intruder tool?

    Staging within staging in a couple of aspects.
     
  17. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Be careful, if you suggest that the suitcase was part of an initial plan to remove the body from the house then you might be suggesting that removing the body was the preferred plan? The more plausible plan? The plan that would first occur to anyone trying to explain their daughter's death by ginning up a fake kidnapping?

    If you find that people agree that the suitcase was considered as a means of removing the body from the home, then they might be tacitly agreeing that blaming the murder on phantom kidnappers is much more plausible if the body isn't in the basement?

    On to your points-

    We can consider that she was wrapped in the duvet and thats how the fibers got there. We can consider that it was obvious she wouldn't fit in the suitcase along with the duvet, and that the killer transferred her fibers to the duvet, secondarily. IMO it is doubtful the body could be stuffed into the suitcase sans duvet, but maybe the killer pulled out the duvet just to better determine if she would/would not fit ? We can also consider various and sundry scenarios by which the secondary transfer was innocent, or even that there was innocent primary transfer from earlier in the day. In fact the fiber evidence is so equivocal that we can consider anything we like. IMO, best to just ignore it, as it can't possibly help us solve the case.

    While it tends to go along with my feeling that the plan had to include dumping the body, I just see no way to say anything definite about the suitcase/duvet/book.

    But back to your points-

    If the suitcase proved to be too small and therefore wasn't going to work for removing the body from the house ( and obviously then the plan was to remove the body from the house) why would that necessitate giving up the preferred plan? Especially if JR/PR are both involved in the cover up. Why couldn't they put their heads together and come up with another way of removing the body from the house ? I don't see why they'd have to give up on plan A so easily, just because the suitcase turned out to be too small.

    May I suggest that a jab, bleeding, extensive clean up, and re-redressing tends to highlight the fact that she'd been molested, rather than obscure it? The molestation is said to be consistent with digital penetration. It would seem the best thing to do - if you know you are about to turn the body over to the coroner - would be as little as possible. But maybe the stager(s) thought the acute injuries would obscure the chronic? It didn't of course, but maybe they didn't know it would not be successful?

    We know that FW said he moved the suitcase, and placed the glass shard on it, so it's very unlikely the suitcase was staged as an intruder tool. We also know from the photos released on The Daily Beast that there was a chair, very nearby the suitcase. The chair would have been a much better choice to stage an intruder entry/exit. (Gee, LS must have accidentally omitted reference to the chair from his presentation). Of course we also know about the grate and the spider web, so we know that no one, including JR, was staging anything for an intruder entry/exit through the broken window.
     
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    midwest mama,
    Yes, absolutely. Assuming of course that the fibers on the White Gap top match the duvet.

    JR's account regarding the samsonite suitcase is suspect. I actually think JonBenet was originally hidden somewhere else in the house then moved to the wine-cellar. Probably because the R's realized she would eventually be found.

    Part of my reasoning on this is the extensive redecorating and refurbishment of the house after the R's decamped the house. Patently removing any tell-tale forensic signs.

    Anyway you have highlighted why my basic RDI theory is not inconsistent with DocG's theory. Except the claim PR dialled 911 when JR did not want this to happen.

    I think there were three staging events, each possibly linked to an injury sustained by JonBenet?

    The last staging, i.e. Abduction Scenario, suggests JonBenet should have been relocated to a disposal site. In a staged crime-scene this is not required, since the primary purpose of the staging is not to fake a crime-scene e.g. Long Island Homicide, but to remove and hide forensic evidence.

    When the R's moved JonBenet, say from her bedroom to the basement, then the tricky question, as to who moved her can be side-stepped. Since it was obviously the kidnapper?

    If you think about it further there was not even an attempt at creating any kind of a crime-scene down in the basement. JonBenet along with associated forensic evidence was simply dumped into the wine-cellar.

    I think JonBenet had already undergone a series of stagings and the drafting of the ransom note is the R's answer for why she was not found in her bed!

    As I suggested earlier she may have been placed elsewhere in the house, then the R's realized at the last moment agency was required in any movement, so the RN was drafted.

    In my basic RDI theory I assume when JonBenet was relocated to the wine-cellar, her size-6 underwear and remaining size-12's and pink pajama bottoms were left behind, and that JR hid them down in the basement early that morning.

    Remember BR's remarks, What did you find?. I think its these little details that JR is attempting to obscure both during and after the 911 call?

    The one piece of evidence that could link JR here is the chair! Everyone seems to focus upon the intruder, but what if JR had a use for the chair, in much the same way, we can envisage him finding a role for the samsonite case.

    I reckon there are objects lying about down in the basement that formed part of a previous staging, and because they look so normal, we do not question them.

    .
    .
     
  19. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

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    Chrishope;9623927]
    I have always suspected the plan made that night was to take the body out of the house. And a kidnapping was the only way to account for a 6 year old child to ultimately be found dead or never returned at all, unless the R's would have tried to say she ran away, or had called for an ambulance providing some reason why she was fatally injured.

    Who could argue with that? Of course it would be more likely for kidnappers to remove JB - especially because that is what they said they did in a note they left behind which was shown to police officers in an attempt to make them believe JB was not in the home. It is beyond any reasonable thought, though, that the R's would ever think they could still get their dead child's body out of the house once police were called. Unless they thought that somehow she could have been camouflaged into something that could have been used to carry out some of the ransom demands - and right under the nose of the cops. Pretty stupid, IMO.

    I'd like to totally agree with you here. If the case ever goes to a trial, unless they are able to provide absolute matches to several of the fiber sources, a good defense attorney will work quickly to debunk most of the available fiber evidence. It would be best to try to ignore it, but it usually comes into consideration when looking for any shred of a clue that might point to the killer.

    Agreed. Unless by that time every shred of reasonable thought had been used up, and other emotions had begun to erode the available time to deal with the body. We must remember, too, that with BR there, if he was not involved in her death or the cover-up, some explanation would have to be made to him as to why she was nowhere to be found and ready to go on their Michigan flight.

    BBM: This is my feeling. I believe there was a real molestation that night which led to the clean-up that left residual that had to be defined under special lighting during the autopsy. And I think there was an additional assault which was intended to look as if it was done by a perverted killer because the molester was worried that there would be signs pointing directly to incestual sexual abuse unless there was an injury that could be tied to the evident forensics.

    Ah, that chair! A definite bugaboo! But I believe the reason JR took time to own the broken window to FW, is because he came to realize the job necessary to allow for a foolproof intruder entry/exit was not adequate or no longer usable.
     
  20. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    The morning of the 26th JR was working hard against the intruder through the window scenario. He wanted police, and FW to think it was someone with a key. I think it's precisely because the window staging was incomplete.

    On the molestation I'm still open to the idea that thier were two episodes, one for fun (if you'll excuse putting it that way) and one to obscure the chronic abuse. However, I'm also open to the idea that there was only one molestation, and it got out of hand. I'd be interested in any other thoughts you have on this issue.

    Good point about needed to give BR some explanation. But I think the overriding concern would be to dispose of the body.
     

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