Theories: Why Would Elizabeth kill Gabriel?

[BeanE]

Unless this thread makes a significant shift to showing a difference between this one and "Did Elizabeth Kill Gabriel?", I'm going to have to merge them. We can not have two threads on the same topic.

Logical, maybe it would help if you give a few bullet points that you hope to discuss here that would differentiate this thread from the other?

Thanks,
BeanE

 

[Khristi]

Giving Gabriel to someone for "safekeeping"??? who and why would take a baby and just keep them for a young distressed mother they did not know well??

I can imagine a kind soul helping her out, give a ride, watch the baby while she looks for a job...but who is going to take a baby in a park with nothing for the baby, and simply walk off to "hold him for safekeeping"??

In an adoption/underground adoption they would at least have their own desire for a child...but just to be an unpaid, unthanked caretaker and provider for a baby you do not know and an (unfit) mother you don't know??

why would the HG set this up?? I can see a guy meeting E and thinking, she is messed up, she doesn't love that baby, she might hurt him, let me see if my mom can watch him tonight and maybe we can call social services or take the baby to a fire station or something.....but I can't see them just taking Gabe in a park

I agree. I was curious too when the PI said he was alive, and there was an appt. set up at 10am on the 27th. But now they say it's leading away from that, and BeanE suggested someone has him in hiding. But, she's in San Antonio, Tx and not likely to know someone there to risk life and limb for a baby that is so wanted from authorities. It's unlikely anyone would risk, and even if they did, Eliz. would have ratted them out in a second to save herself from all the charges and life in prison. So, possible he got handed off, but not probable. You could walk out from your home, and its possible to be struck by lightning, anything is possible, but not probable. yeah, I keep going over in my mind, they only conclusion that makes sense is the worst conclusion. Elizabeth's character is not the type to protect anyone who has the baby, the first person she protect is herself. That is why she flip flops and later says the baby is alive, some time in January, probably because the heat was so intense from authorities. But saying that means nothings if she cannot produce a living Gabriel. JMO of course.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Hi...I think this "theory" thread is different from the "why E won't talk" thread..as it's focus is the (grim) theory that E killed Gabriel

the other thread has many other theories why she won't talk (ie, to get revenge on Logan, that she wants to stay in jail etc)

There are many threads here that overlap...with people's ideas why Gabriel is "alive" ....and I see so much speculation in each of them

This thread is laying out very concrete reasons why some of us feel that E has indeed killed Gabriel.

No off the wall theories here either...no elaborate "maybe if this happened and then that happened" etc

I really do agree with the idea that NO one is PROBABLY going to just go to this trouble/expense/legal danger of "safekeeping" Gabriel for Elizabeth.

Since the HG supposedly made the trade off I have seen people suppose and surmise that some Hispanic couple has Gabe....just holding and hiding him out of the good of their hearts, disguising him (hard to do with his big blue eyes and little pug nosed face that looks decidely NON Hispanic..also NON Italian, NON Greek, NON African, NON Asian)

That to me is really an absurd idea

Maybe IF E had a close relative in San Antonio, then maybe ..just maybe...they would "take him off her hands" ....but even then would they put themselves in this danger to hang on to him?

"Hiding him in Mexico, disguised as Mexican (hard to do with his looks JMO)....disguised as a girl"....
sorry that also defies all logical thought

the idea that some couple had adopted him might fly...IF E had money, a new (newer old) car...something

I remember one case where some unfit parents tried to sell their kid for some exotic parrots !! Well E didn't even have parrots

I think that this new feel good theory is in response to the fact that E didn't seem to prosper from an adoption...she was broke and staying in a $25 a night hostel.

So now it goes from "adoption" (which we know E wanted, presumably for some profit)....to a "handoff"....sorry I don't think that is reasonable

(PS....I think we are discussing many theories and shooting them down here)

 

[LogicalMinds]

Bean E...the difference between the thread did E kill Gabriel is that the other "speculations" and ideas are there...I would like this thread to be a place where those of us who feel this way can write down our theories.

That includes : theories of what we think happened...hopefully backed up by facts
theories of why other ideas are not likely/reasonable/logical
we should also be able to contrast this with other cases/statistics/info

furthermore I would like to see some posts about
WHAT IF THERE WAS NO TS IN THIS CASE??

That is a pet peeve of mine...I feel that TS has muddled this case and
investigation...without her mixed in here, the case is much more simple
and straightforward

 

[Lanie]

I do not believe Baby Gabriel is still alive, and I will be ecstatic to be proven wrong.

I guess I feel the opposite of some others here. I don't see any reason to go through all the cloak and dagger of hiding your baby, and then turning around and documenting it in a journal.

Then I have a hard time swallowing this woman was able to meet someone in such a short period of time who just happened to know someone else who would be willing to put themselves in such a position to take this baby. And, of course, they don't live in the area where the baby happens to be, just seems a little too convenient to me.

Anyway, I do truly hope I am wrong, wrong, wrong on this.

 

[iluvmua]

What points me to believe that this child is no longer alive is the fact that Nobody has seen him alive since December 26th.

After that date, Nothing. Nada, Zip. That really worries me.

if a couple had this baby, people would take notice and say something to the effects of " We saw this baby with X couple" or "we saw Gabe here" etc.

almost 4 months and no witnesses have come foward yet.

 

[rekabal]

I don't think she killed him - either on purpose or accidentally.
On purpose - why go all the way to san antonio and do all the things she apparently did and keep him for a week if the intent was to kill him?
I also don't think she killed him accidentally, because I would not expect her to then text LM and then almost taunt him and say "... blue body... trash" etc. I would expect her to dispose of the body (that is just ugly, I almost couldn't type that) and disappear without contacting anyone.:twocents:

 

[Khristi]

It's true- everyone has their own theory. But the theory that makes the most sense is unfortunately, to me, the worst case scenario. So Mr. Gamble goes on Tv and says baby is alive, and then later Logan says thay are leading away from illegal adoption theory. So my question, what theory next. and then its suggested there is a handoff. But I have a problem with handoff theory because what couple would risk so much, felony charges and prison time to hide Gabe, a "hot potatoe" as was said in a previous post. And also, Elizab. would rat out the couple immediately whoever had him to save herself from prison time. To understand her character and behavior, it's not consistent with her character to protect any couple, or third party, or anyone to hide Gabe. She would produce Gabe immediately for her own self interest. The head can accept that Gabe was killed by his mother, but the heart cannot accept it. So it's why the heart spins off new theories, such as a handoff in the park. JMO of course. If you look at the total picture: ugly custody battle, ill will and hatred towards father, kidnapping the child, confessing she killed him, hell bent on revenge towards the father, (where she disposed of him may differ from confession), not talking in jail, her character and mental state, it does not bode well for baby Gabe. To me, theory that she did kill him is most consistent with all the facts and circumstance. She destroyed Gabe's clothes and cribs and was violent towards Logan, smashing windows, etc.., so what better way to hurt Logan than to destroy mini-Logan, who is Gabe. She has been violent in jail, assaulting the other two inmates, so she violent towards people too, not just objects. Wish I'm wrong...

 

[iluvmua]

This is what EJ wrote: My Advanced Directive & Will (dated 4/9/2010)

I am writing my advanced directive and will because I am incarcerated in Estrella jail and they are starving me and serving rotten food with worms in it.
I haven't eaten in over 7 days and barely can write this. The water...
makes us sick. I feel they will let me starve to death rather than feeding me safe, edible food. I don't want an autopsy, I do not wish to donate any organs/body parts. That is against my religion. I wish my grandmother be contacted (phone number) only. I wish to be cremated right away, put in a box not an urn and brought to mass to be buried above my mother's grave. I know my grandmother Sylvia (last name) will arrange this for me. White lilies for me is all. I don't think I'll have time to have my lawyer notarize this because I am starving and so weak and dehydrated so I will put a tank order in for a notary.
I love you Marzzy. I am sorry be happy for us. Sincerely, Elizabeth Johnson[/B

I am now convinced that Gabriel is dead

 

[iluvmua]

above from My Fox Phoenix from today

 

[kissdegirl]

This is what EJ wrote: My Advanced Directive & Will (dated 4/9/2010)

I am writing my advanced directive and will because I am incarcerated in Estrella jail and they are starving me and serving rotten food with worms in it.
I haven't eaten in over 7 days and barely can write this. The water...
makes us sick. I feel they will let me starve to death rather than feeding me safe, edible food. I don't want an autopsy, I do not wish to donate any organs/body parts. That is against my religion. I wish my grandmother be contacted (phone number) only. I wish to be cremated right away, put in a box not an urn and brought to mass to be buried above my mother's grave. I know my grandmother Sylvia (last name) will arrange this for me. White lilies for me is all. I don't think I'll have time to have my lawyer notarize this because I am starving and so weak and dehydrated so I will put a tank order in for a notary.
I love you Marzzy. I am sorry be happy for us. Sincerely, Elizabeth Johnson[/B

I am now convinced that Gabriel is dead

Not exactly a smoking gun to me. This whole paragpraph is about her and her mother, so when she says "us", I just don't see her meaning Gabriel.

 

[BeanE]

Not exactly a smoking gun to me. This whole paragpraph is about her and her mother, so when she says "us", I just don't see her meaning Gabriel.

The 'be happy for us' tells me too that Gabe is alive.

'Be happy for us' indicates her (EJ) and another person, and is addressed to her grandmother. She wouldn't expect that her grandmother could be happy for her if she'd murdered her baby, her grandmother's great-grandchild. Her grandmother could be nothing but angry and traumatized and sad with her.

 

[BeanE]

Bean E...the difference between the thread did E kill Gabriel is that the other "speculations" and ideas are there...I would like this thread to be a place where those of us who feel this way can write down our theories.

That includes : theories of what we think happened...hopefully backed up by facts
theories of why other ideas are not likely/reasonable/logical
we should also be able to contrast this with other cases/statistics/info

furthermore I would like to see some posts about
WHAT IF THERE WAS NO TS IN THIS CASE??

That is a pet peeve of mine...I feel that TS has muddled this case and
investigation...without her mixed in here, the case is much more simple
and straightforward

- WS doesn't host threads exclusively for those who feel a certain way. Everyone is welcome to express all their opinions in a manner that is compliant with WS TOS and guidelines.

- theories backed up by facts are great

- opinions of why other theories may be less likely are welcome within WS TOS and guidelines. Insulting, rudeness, and attacking are not permitted.

- TS is in this case. We can't unring that bell. Discussions of what if there was no TS in this case would serve no constructive purpose and would detract from the fact-based sleuthing we do here.


All members are responsible for knowing and complying with WS TOS and guidelines. If anyone needs any assistance in this regard, please PM me, any mod or admin, or Websleuths' owner, Tricia.

Thanks!
BeanE

 

[BeanE]

The topic of this thread is now 'Theories: Why did Elizabeth kill Gabe?'

Two threads have been merged to form it. With the merge of the threads, the poll in one of the former threads is now closed.

The Poll question was: Did Elizabeth kill Gabriel?

The final results were that most people feel that Elizabeth did not kill Gabe:

Poll Results:
no 101 55.80%
yes 80 44.20%

Thank you for your participation.

Please stay on the new topic, and post other topics in their appropriate threads.

Thank you,
BeanE

 

[DairyGirl]

I think the reasons that EJ may have killed Gabriel are obvious, to get back at LM, rid herself of the burden of motherhood, or flew into a rage at the frustrations of his demands. It may also just be that she is mentally unstable and thought it was better for him to be dead then live in this world. I can't think of any other reason that she may have killed him. I'm still hoping that she didn't, it's just as time goes on I lose that hope.

 

[noopy]

Since I read about this in early January, I have believed that Gabriel is alive. But it has now been 4 months, and I am starting to lose hope for a few reasons.
1) No one has seen him, he has gotten enough media coverage, maybe not like Caylee or Haleigh, but his is definitely a high profile case.
2) EJ is still not talking after 4 long months. She hates jail and yet won't cooperate. She seems very selfish and if she could get out of jail earlier by producing Gabe, I'm sure she would no matter who she has to betray (Gabe or another couple).
3) EJ is violent and mental, her history and her recent attacks in jail show she's capable of hurting others.
4) No one has come forward after 4 months, any normal couple hiding him would have done the right thing out of fear.
5) The police seems to lean towards that, and they have more info than we do. None of the tips have really lead anywhere yet...
6) Her will, did not mention Gabe at all, and the last sentence "us" likely means her and Gabe (and also possibly her and her mom). But the fact she did not mention Gabe at all means she has absolutely no regard or love for him whatsoever.

I'm so very sad that I have actually switched camps now, but I wish I can be proven wrong! I think EJ didn't go to SA to kill Gabe, but perhaps in a rage, or by accidental overdose, she did kill him. I think she told Logan the truth to hurt him and also because she thought she'd be gone soon and wouldn't get caught.

 

[sleuth2001]

My theory is she started working on this while still in AZ perhaps while TPS had Gabriel or even before then. She may have been researching things on the internet prior to calling TPS and then thought of trying TPS. She knew that LM wasn't going to let TPS have Gabriel and with them living so close to the S's it just wasn't going to happen. So I think she started plotting and planning prior to leaving and when the TPS deal didn't work through she went to plan B which is another "couple" or a friends of a friend. The only thing is I can't see people or a friend willing to put themselves through all this for her. Then that leads me to believe that whoever had Gabriel has the means and resources to carry out this hiding of Gabriel and they knew what this "adoption" would consist of and was prepared. My only other thought is that since TPS couldn't have him she may have "arranged" for someone else to have him because she felt he would be safe and loved with them versus LM. I am not sure if EJ just didn't want to share custody or if she thought LM would get full custody. I can't see why he would get full custody at that time because I don't see anything at that time indicating they would take gabriel away from EJ completely. This is why I am so puzzled as to why she went through all this just to avoid letting LM have visitation with Gabriel. If she truly didn't want Gabriel it would have just been easier to let LM have him and be on her way....awww sooooooo confusing this all is. MOO

 

[BeanE]

I think the reasons that EJ may have killed Gabriel are obvious, to get back at LM, rid herself of the burden of motherhood, or flew into a rage at the frustrations of his demands. It may also just be that she is mentally unstable and thought it was better for him to be dead then live in this world. I can't think of any other reason that she may have killed him. I'm still hoping that she didn't, it's just as time goes on I lose that hope.

Hey Dairy! What I wonder about sometimes is if it would have been the obvious - in a moment of rage - or if it was something more deep seated and long term - a lifetime of rage culminating in a moment of 'the ultimate rage'.

Maybe I just don't want to accept that the loss of a precious baby could be for something so trivial as "I was mad at my bf". Maybe that's in combination with her being a woman. Recently we've seen a few cases where men, boyfriends, killed their own baby or their gf's baby because "I was mad at my gf". The man who threw the baby girl out the window of the car and into the river. The man who shot the baby girl in the head.

If Elizabeth killed Gabe, is she the female counterpart of these guys? These guys who seem to be forming a new trend - 'get mad at significant other, kill the baby'.

Is Elizabeth part of the new trend I see forming in extreme violence in young females? The woman who killed Sandra Cantu, Alyssa Bustamante, etc.

Maybe I'm just trying to find something different about Elizabeth because Gabe has become so special to me. I just don't know.

 

[TXHOPE]

Snipped:

6) Her will, did not mention Gabe at all, and the last sentence "us" likely means her and Gabe (and also possibly her and her mom). But the fact she did not mention Gabe at all means she has absolutely no regard or love for him whatsoever.

I do still believe he's alive and will continue to until I see actual evidence that shows otherwise. I think that's what is fair for Gabriel. How can we give up looking for him if we're not 100% this happened? Do I worry that I may be wrong? Yes, it's possible she killed Gabriel but it's also possible he's still alive. The will is the first thing I've seen that has placed true doubt in my mind. It's just so heartless and cruel and because I truly care for Gabriel, it was hard to read. This is from his mother and she thinks she's about to die and only mentions 2 people she cares/cared about other than herself and not a single word about her very own precious baby. She's sick and twisted and I think she may be capable of this. I can't understand how she can have a fan club after that was released or even before. I'm holding on to the journal for hope right now. If she wrote down exactly what happened as a way to back up to her story and left it for LE to find then I think it would of matched what she told LE. It's also very specific, I think if it was a lie she would of kept it simple.

 

[smart blonde]

I don't think it's such a stretch to think that Elizabeth killed Gabriel in large part because she was angry with her boyfriend/ Logan.

Logan is the one person is this world that she probably felt the deepest connection to, and I believe Elizabeth already suffered from a long-term, deep seated fear of abandonment- and Logan's ending it with Elizabeth set it off.

Much like I believe Casey Anthony killed Caylee because Casey was angry with her parents- the people Casey was most connected with.