THIS article says what I believe about the motive for the murder and who the perp was

[Sabot]

Here is an excerpt from an article written in 2008 about the case, but more specifically about John Ramsey. While it's entirely biased in favor of the Ramsey's innocence, it still contains some interesting info we hadn't seen before. To your question of how John Ramsey felt about the pageants, there is an interview with a close Ramsey friend, the wife of John's pilot in Boulder. Mrs. Pam Archuleta (now divorced) gave us some insight from the inner circle:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...y-exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter/2/



It's an informative article on many levels.

That does not explain for why a six tear old child was grossly exploited, sexually. Or for what ever other reason that might be beyond me.
Forgive me if I misunderstand you. But you just don't do this sort of thing to the small children that you love.
You might even expect something horrible to happen.

Je ne sais pas. Je suis tres desolete.

 

[Alix]

What on earth is this writer trying to say? I mean, what is his point? Someone please clue me in.:waitasec:

 

[dodie20]

I cannot begin to imagine why anyone would decorate a Christmas Tree with Purple.
And Yes, I can see why Patsy Ramsey might think that time was running out.
But what person in their right mind would take a young child to meet them in death?
I can't get my head around subjecting that small girl to The Beauty Pageant Circuit. But then I am a bit old fashioned.

A lot of mothers kill their children and then commit suicide. I'm not sure if I think this applies in this case... mainly because the brutality, would have been unnecessary. But, PR was really sick, and she was smart enough to know her days were probably numbered. Someone living her life of cancer, from day to day to day, might think about death and the afterlife, more than the average person. I know a lot of religious people, and during times of stress, they turn to God, the bible, and scriptures. They look for religious meaning in everything. My sister believes that when someone dies, it's simply their predestined time to go. Period. And if a child dies, then that's a good thing, because she gets a free pass to heaven, and won't run the risk of later becoming a sinner, etc... The Ramseys turning to religion, didn't surprise me at all. They did say a few things that shocked me, though. MOO.

 

[Maikai]

Thanks, but I am beginning to wonder. I guess that I automatically react against unfounded allegations because they do so much harm if they are wrong.
But Patsy Ramsey is dead now, so no more harm can be done to her.

My immediate response to this Case was to suspect Patsy Ramsey, but I kept that to myself. And then I decided that The Ramseys were being treated unfairly, mainly by Internet Gouls. They are the curse of The Planet because they think nothing of what they say, or of the harm that they do.

Now? I have to accept that there were some very strange goings on.

I don't believe there were any strange goings on, except what's been dreamed up over the years. You can take any suspect and weave a web around them....as has been done. Neither Patsy nor John woke up one day and became a psychotic child murderer. There would have been indications prior to that, and they were known to be generous, trusting, and doting parents....neither one was over zealous in their religious beliefs. The way JBR was murdered and assaulted isn't the act of Patsy or John. I don't believe JBR was sexually assaulted prior to that night---there are plenty of experts that say no. Cyril Wecht didn't have access to the tissue samples...which he claims in one of his books is required to make a conclusion. He was a blowhard who fortunately was silenced by Lin Wood, amoung others.

The beauty pageant business was strange to me in the beginning......I didn't understand anything about it at the time. Now you have that show Tiaras and ?...forget the name, but some of the moms are way overboard, and the tots sexualized.

There is absolutely nothing in the Ramsey's past to indicate either one had anything to do with this crime or there was any mental illness or child abuse. The newspaper article on the 21st was the trigger, IMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

A lot of mothers kill their children and then commit suicide. I'm not sure if I think this applies in this case... mainly because the brutality, would have been unnecessary. But, PR was really sick, and she was smart enough to know her days were probably numbered. Someone living her life of cancer, from day to day to day, might think about death and the afterlife, more than the average person. I know a lot of religious people, and during times of stress, they turn to God, the bible, and scriptures. They look for religious meaning in everything. My sister believes that when someone dies, it's simply their predestined time to go. Period. And if a child dies, then that's a good thing, because she gets a free pass to heaven, and won't run the risk of later becoming a sinner, etc... The Ramseys turning to religion, didn't surprise me at all. They did say a few things that shocked me, though. MOO.

I believe everyone dies when it is their time-whether 100 years or 1 day old. Or a fetus. God doesn't point his/her finger and say "YOU". It was time to return "home" and that's that, and WE choose our own exit. The soul of a dead child is no longer a child, but a supremely sentient being, and no one looks back with sorrow when they leave.
Patsy said something an the order of "at least JB will never know the death of a child herself or cancer"....putting a positive spin on JB's death.
Obviously a person who dies as a child does not live long enough to become a sinner or add to their negative karmic balance sheet as it were, but all the many lives we live are taken as a whole, and there are reasons why one might choose to incarnate for only a brief time once in a while.
But Patsy's religious beliefs were much narrower in scope, and while I'd stop short of saying they were Fundamentalist, she was much more traditional in her beliefs.
I also think we can't disregard the effect Patsy's chemo and cancer treatments had on her endocrine system, and hormones affect us - a LOT.

I do not believe anyone in that house knocked JB around, but someone with regular access to her was having sexual contact with her on more than one occasion. Was it brutally forceful, with JB screaming and being restrained? Probably not. More like the result of "pressured coaxing" and an acquiescent JB who became less so. Whether the acute sexual contact that night involved restraining and brute force is not certain, but I see no evidence of force or restraint in the autopsy report. The only place the ligature was pulled tight is the neck- NO marks on her wrists or legs despite JR's claims she was tied there. NO major bruising consistent with a beaten child or one who was manhandled during a sexual assault. There is one shoulder bruise on the back of her right shoulder blade, which is in keeping with someone kneeling as the garrote was tied. The other bruising (and there wasn't a tremendous amount of it), was on her labia and in the vagina.

 

[KoldKase]

That does not explain for why a six tear old child was grossly exploited, sexually. Or for what ever other reason that might be beyond me.
Forgive me if I misunderstand you. But you just don't do this sort of thing to the small children that you love.
You might even expect something horrible to happen.

Je ne sais pas. Je suis tres desolete.

If you read the entire article at the link, there is more related to your question. Sources are all we have, inadequate as they may be, since none of us is John or Patsy Ramsey.

Do you think any of us can be more precise than her own parents vague evasions as to why JonBenet Ramsey was part of that twisted world of child exploitation?

I posted the link and quote for you because it is the only inside information on the topic we've ever received from someone who actually knew and was close to them, who implied John was not happy with the pageant life for his daughter. That was directly responding to a question you asked, or so I thought.

Perhaps not, but that was my intent.

Ne désespérez pas. Personne ne sait.

 

[twinkiesmom]

pedophiles don't just suddenly develop their desires to molest in middle age.
[/url]

Not true. You are describing a preferential child molester. Try researching situational child molester.

 

[dodie20]

That does not explain for why a six tear old child was grossly exploited, sexually. Or for what ever other reason that might be beyond me.
Forgive me if I misunderstand you. But you just don't do this sort of thing to the small children that you love.
You might even expect something horrible to happen.

Je ne sais pas. Je suis tres desolete.

IDK why, but maybe PR being so sick, decided to rush things forward. If it was her dream for JonBenet to compete later, (as she herself did), maybe she was scared that she wouldn't live long enough to see it...so she entered her in the kiddie pageants. Actually, I could understand that reasoning, since her own pageants were a huge part of how she identified herself. If not for her illness, I'm not sure she would have bothered with the pageants. Anyway, I don't think PR was the typical pageant mom.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I think that Patsy entered JonBenet in pageants because Patsy (and Nedra) wanted JonBenet to be Miss America one day, and they wanted JonBenet to get as much experience as possible to increase her chances. There could also be other reasons like Patsy enjoyed the pageants and since she could no longer do them, it was JonBenet's turn, she liked seeing JonBenet all glammed up, etc. I don't think child beauty pageants became controversial until after JonBenet's murder, so maybe Patsy didn't think there was anything wrong with them. Heck, there are people who still enter their children in those pageants, despite the almost universally negative press about them since 1996.

 

[Maikai]

I haven't seen this writing sample of Oliva's. Perhaps you could provide a link or source so we can make our own comparisons to follow your theory? Aunt Pam told a reporter when Patsy died that Patsy had her "Victory." Does that make Aunt Pam a suspect?
QUOTE]

I found this on one of the other websites......http://www.webbsleuths.com/dcf/jbr_evidence/62.html

I hope the link works. A poster Braveheart compared the handwriting. I may have sent it to J...because I don't know how to post things like that. It was so long ago, who knows? The link on 21. and 28. post shows the handwriting. The first post most likely has Olivia's handwriting, but I have a different computer, and all that shows up is a red X in the box. That's not the complete grievance--it doesn't have the double consonant words on it. I suspect I probably threw it out....along with other things like the rap sheet of a former housekeeper and a particular family member.

 

[BBB167893]

Blah! Dodie Osteen is the mother of Joel Osteen.....he refers to her healing from cancer all the time in his services. How many of his followers have garotted their child and hit her over the head with the force of a 350 pound football player?

Well, I hate to pile on. KK already gutted your assertions (which is not hard, I admit). But I hate to feel like I'm left out, so here goes.

As has been pointed out, leaving the misquote about football players aside, you seem to have it all backwards. I don't think anyone is suggesting that having the faith leads to killing. Rather, it seems that it's being suggested that Patsy, like MANY people who find themselves in a fix, was trying to find some kind of holy good in something terrible. Kind of reminds me of all the death row inmates who claim to find God.

Patsy's handwriting scored 4.5 out of 5.0 and was analyzed by a professional in the field, with 5.0 being not the writer.

Oh, please! Don't waste our time with that dogmess!

The DNA is good enough for the Boulder police to discount suspects...it is good enough to be in the database.

Well, that's not quite true, is it? I understand that KK has it correct: NO one was discounted as a suspect based on a lack of a DNA hit alone. It was sort of the final nail in the coffin, if you will. And as for being good enough to be in the database, you seem to have a short memory. The articles written about how it was "accepted" (and I use the term loosely) into the database made it very clear that the DNA did not meet the minimum standards for inclusion and had to be, for lack of a better term, rammed through at the behest of the DA's office, with the understanding that if they didn't include it, it would mean a lot of bad publicity.

It shouldn't be minimized.

On the contrary. Not only should it be minimized, I'd discount it altogther!

 

[BBB167893]

Oh brother........there is no way John would have been cooperated with any coverup.

Why the hell NOT??

 

[BBB167893]

Maybe she did. We have no way of knowing what her last words really were.

Or, if she HAD any last words. She may not have been able to speak at the end. I know that when my mother died of cancer, she was not able to speak, due to a combination of sedation and just weakness. It's entirely possible that Patsy was not conscious when Death came to call.

Even if she was in control of her faculties, DD makes a good point: since the only person that was with her, that I'm aware of, was JR, he certainly wouldn't admit if she did. And even then, Patsy might not have confessed anyway. She'd run a long race. The cover-up had taken on a life of its own by then.

 

[BBB167893]

The Religious angle doesn't ring true. No God fearing person would sacrifice their own child to save themselves from Cancer. Only a Satanist would believe that this could work. Which it obviously didn't.

I'm often amazed at what God-fearing people will do. Especially in a spot like this, where the subject may have had some mental damage as a result from the disease and the treatments.

The whole case was weird, but foreign DNA was found.

Foreign DNA is found in a lot of cases. One estimate I've heard, from no less than an authority than Henry Lee, is that DNA is useless in HALF the cases where it is found.

 

[BBB167893]

This is a really interesting post. Should we now factor in the man who was supposedly prepared to sacrifice his son at God's request? Sorry, can't remember his name.

That was Abraham, if I remember it right.

I suppose it might depend on how crackers Patsy Ramsey was.

I think you just said the magic words!

The whole Case disturbs me because there is much that doesn't make sense, and I agree that suspicions are there to be found. I find the whole Beauty Pageant thing extremely distasteful, and cannot begin to imagine why the child's Father allowed it.

I can't, either, especially when you factor in his statements after Patsy's death where he claims he was against it all along.

I don't even remotely understand how the mind of any Fundamentalist works, but there are extremists in all religions. However, if Patsy Ramsey did this then it would have been entirely self motivated. Again, hardly God Fearing. In which case you could say that God got her in the end.

I think some of us would say that anyway.

So, can someone give me some explanation for the foreign DNA?

Best I've heard is that JB transferred it to herself.

 

[BBB167893]

And Yes, I can see why Patsy Ramsey might think that time was running out.
But what person in their right mind would take a young child to meet them in death?

I don't know how "right" their minds were, but plenty of parents have killed their children to meet them in death. The tragedy of Chris Benoit leaps to mind!

I can't get my head around subjecting that small girl to The Beauty Pageant Circuit. But then I am a bit old fashioned.

Being old-fashioned has nothing to do with having trouble with the concept of Child Beauty Pageants, in my opinion. I, for one, do not regard what happens to these children as any kind of progress.

 

[BBB167893]

Incidentally, I think we're doing a disservice to this article by focusing on this one aspect. There are a number of things to talk about. For instance, I'd always wondered why Jim Kolar was rotated out of the DA's investigative team after only two weeks, I think it was. Well, Shapiro's article makes it clear that he was rotated out for just the reason I thought: because he said the Rs did it, and that didn't gel with what the DA wanted.

 

[Maikai]

Why the hell NOT??

He would have done a better job of it. These are not the type of people that would have killed a child in this way, and if it was just Patsy, John would not have been a part of it anymore than most parents would coveup for one another--I'm talking normal upper middle class, educated parents.....neither knew the movie lines....no lights were blaring from the house that night--it's ludicrous to continuing saying a Ramsey did it.

 

[norest4thewicked]

He would have done a better job of it. These are not the type of people that would have killed a child in this way, and if it was just Patsy, John would not have been a part of it anymore than most parents would coveup for one another--I'm talking normal upper middle class, educated parents.....neither knew the movie lines....no lights were blaring from the house that night--it's ludicrous to continuing saying a Ramsey did it.

Respectfully, I don't see how you can generalize about this. What "type of people" kill a child in this way? And, many parents cover up for one another...this isn't at all difficult to accept. What makes John so different?

 

[Sabot]

I'm often amazed at what God-fearing people will do. Especially in a spot like this, where the subject may have had some mental damage as a result from the disease and the treatments.



Foreign DNA is found in a lot of cases. One estimate I've heard, from no less than an authority than Henry Lee, is that DNA is useless in HALF the cases where it is found.

I agree. DNA is often useless in establishing guilt. But it is there, and must have got there somehow, although we aren't going to find out how until we found out who it belongs to, or even if they can establish that it does.
A reasonable doubt might well be easy to find.