THIS article says what I believe about the motive for the murder and who the perp was

BBB167893

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Also, my own opinion of T&T and other child pageants are that they promote the wrong ideas for children--- beauty is fleeting and besides the singing, dancing, etc., it would seem that 'looks' are the main thing . Plus, it seems like our world is too dangerous of a place to promote anything like child pageants--- I think these shows attract people you wouldn't want around your kids.
jmo

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that perverts don't watch T&T should think again.
 

BBB167893

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Dener Post JBR archive:

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/feb.htm


Ex-Miss America consults with police on case, Feb 27, 1997
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon37.htm

Van Derbur consulted by police

`In research on survivors, Van Derbur Atler said she found that 68 percent of victims were violated by fathers or stepfathers. The former beauty queen told in 1991 of incest with her father, socialite Francis Van Derbur. The average age of the victim for the first incident is 6. People have a stereotyped image about incest; that it's only a problem in socially unacceptable families, poor families or chaotic families, she said. But, sometimes, those who appear to be the nicest people commit incest, and there is some resistance to accepting that. "We fight against seeing the dark side," Van Derbur Atler said. "My father was just so charming. This happens in the nicest homes." When people who talk to her about the Ramseys say, "It couldn't have happened in this family, in a family so beautiful," she is disheartened about the impact of her work in the last decade.`

Don't I know it!

Wendy Murphy, a former sex-crimes prosecutor, is in the same boat with Marilyn:

the public is uncomfortable accepting the idea that people who look so nice on the outside can be dastardly on the inside. This feel-good bias makes it harder to conceptualize that a parent could commit a horrific crime against his or her own child.
 

DeeDee249

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Thanks. Where was the housekeeper?

The housekeeper did not live with the Rs. She lived in her own home with her husband and daughter (a few years older than JB). She also had older kids. LHP and her husband each gave DNA and writing samples to police. There was never any fiber or DNA evidence linking them to the crime, and both were completely exonerated from having written the ransom note.
I was actually being sarcastic with my answer.
It was JR who made that "inside job" statement to Detective Arndt within seconds of placing his dead daughter on the floor. JR was intending to cast suspicion on the housekeeper or a disgruntled employee or friend with his comment. However, the only "insider" I see as responsible are one of the three family members who were in the house with JB as this crime was committed.
 

Sabot

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The housekeeper did not live with the Rs. She lived in her own home with her husband and daughter (a few years older than JB). She also had older kids. LHP and her husband each gave DNA and writing samples to police. There was never any fiber or DNA evidence linking them to the crime, and both were completely exonerated from having written the ransom note.
I was actually being sarcastic with my answer.
It was JR who made that "inside job" statement to Detective Arndt within seconds of placing his dead daughter on the floor. JR was intending to cast suspicion on the housekeeper or a disgruntled employee or friend with his comment. However, the only "insider" I see as responsible are one of the three family members who were in the house with JB as this crime was committed.

That's what I thought you meant. A very odd remark to make under the circumstances. This would leave me to wonder if he did suspect Patsy.
He certainly wouldn't have said it if he had been involved, or if he thought his son was. On the latter, I would have thought he would have waited until he had time to evaluate any suspicions about the boy. Parents don't normally instinctively throw their children to the wolves without some sort of proof.

But how could he have excused Patsy? And continued to live with her?
 

Squishified

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Damn skippy it is!



If you don't by now, you don't know me very well!

I mentioned that case specifically because it illustrates the fallacy of IDI's claim about what "type" of parents would do this. God knows I'm not trying to blame the victims here, but if all you knew about the Van Dams and the Ramseys were their backgrounds and that they each had a dead daughter, who would YOU think was more likely to be guilty?

God forgive me for saying that.

I've been waiting for the day that you would call me "skippy"!:rocker:
As to your other point, you are unfortunately 100% correct.
 

Squishified

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But how could he have excused Patsy? And continued to live with her?

In my opinion, he stayed because he felt guilt himself. I don't believe he participated in the actual killing, but he probably blamed himself for it happening. Since he was at work a lot he may have felt that it was his fault for putting PR through so much stress at home. He may have felt some guilt for not being around more when Patsy was sick with cancer. I dunno, these are just a few of my thoughts.
I've said this once before (and God I hate saying this), but when I was young, if my mom had accidentally beat me or one of my brothers to death, I think my dad would cover for her. He was at work most of the time and I think he would feel some guilt if something happened.
Anyway, that's just my :twocents:
 

BBB167893

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I've been waiting for the day that you would call me "skippy"!:rocker:
As to your other point, you are unfortunately 100% correct.

It's not YOU who needs to realize that, Squishified.

(And I was not calling you "skippy." That's just an expression my dad used.)
 

BBB167893

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In my opinion, he stayed because he felt guilt himself. I don't believe he participated in the actual killing, but he probably blamed himself for it happening. Since he was at work a lot he may have felt that it was his fault for putting PR through so much stress at home. He may have felt some guilt for not being around more when Patsy was sick with cancer. I dunno, these are just a few of my thoughts.

The way I see it, that's one of two possibilities. In fact, you worded it pretty much the way I would have done. You hear that a lot from spouses of child-killers. "I should have seen that something was wrong." "If only I'd been there." It's classic.

Either that, or he WAS involved and Patsy had something on him. At which point, it's MAD--Mutually Assured Destruction.

I've said this once before (and God I hate saying this), but when I was young, if my mom had accidentally beat me or one of my brothers to death, I think my dad would cover for her. He was at work most of the time and I think he would feel some guilt if something happened.
Anyway, that's just my :twocents:

No worse than me! I ASKED my mother flat-out: "Old Mum, if you had mistakenly killed (name of my younger brother), do you think Dad would have stuck by you?"

She thought for a moment, and said, "Yes, I do think he would have."
 

Tessa2009

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No worse than me! I ASKED my mother flat-out: "Old Mum, if you had mistakenly killed (name of my younger brother), do you think Dad would have stuck by you?"

She thought for a moment, and said, "Yes, I do think he would have."

respectfully snipped by me

Yikes, reading that gave me chills....and not good ones....

I still think JR was complicate in the murder - Lisa Erwin's father reminds me of someone that would/has "cover/covered" the death of his daughter...He's not a mouth piece for his missing daughter like JR was for JBR. I hope that made sense.
 

BBB167893

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respectfully snipped by me

Yikes, reading that gave me chills....and not good ones....

I'm NOT proud of it, Tessa. I felt like a heel to ask her that, especially with Dad gone and not able to speak for himself. But I knew him well. He'd try to keep what was left of his family together.

I still think JR was complicit in the murder - Lisa Irwin's father reminds me of someone that would/has "cover/covered" the death of his daughter...He's not a mouth piece for his missing daughter like JR was for JBR. I hope that made sense.

I understood it right well.
 

DeeDee249

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Some people do what they should do. Other people do what they have to do.
 

DeeDee249

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I so not feel JR's "inside job" comment was him throwing his son (or wife) to te wolves. He wasn't referring to Patsy or BR. He was most likely referring to LHP or former Access Graphics employee John Merrick, two innocent people with NO links to the crime scene that he tried early on to implicate. As a matter of fact, I would bet he and Patsy spent some time discussing who would make a perfect "patsy" (no pun intended).
 

Sabot

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In my opinion, he stayed because he felt guilt himself. I don't believe he participated in the actual killing, but he probably blamed himself for it happening. Since he was at work a lot he may have felt that it was his fault for putting PR through so much stress at home. He may have felt some guilt for not being around more when Patsy was sick with cancer. I dunno, these are just a few of my thoughts.
I've said this once before (and God I hate saying this), but when I was young, if my mom had accidentally beat me or one of my brothers to death, I think my dad would cover for her. He was at work most of the time and I think he would feel some guilt if something happened.
Anyway, that's just my :twocents:

You could be right. On reflection I have the same suspicions about my Father.
 

dodie20

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The way I see it, that's one of two possibilities. In fact, you worded it pretty much the way I would have done. You hear that a lot from spouses of child-killers. "I should have seen that something was wrong." "If only I'd been there." It's classic.

Either that, or he WAS involved and Patsy had something on him. At which point, it's MAD--Mutually Assured Destruction.



No worse than me! I ASKED my mother flat-out: "Old Mum, if you had mistakenly killed (name of my younger brother), do you think Dad would have stuck by you?"

She thought for a moment, and said, "Yes, I do think he would have."
I don't have to ask my father...he would not only have stayed with my mother, but he would have lied, covered for her, and done what she told him to do. But, JR doesn't strike me as that kind of man. Them getting separate lawyers, kind of made me think that 1 was guilty, and the other one, was willing to go along, up to a point... but if push came to shove, he/she, was going to look out for him/herself. My dad, for instance, would have either shared the same lawyer, or not got 1 at all. MOO
 

DeeDee249

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I don't have to ask my father...he would not only have stayed with my mother, but he would have lied, covered for her, and done what she told him to do. But, JR doesn't strike me as that kind of man. Them getting separate lawyers, kind of made me think that 1 was guilty, and the other one, was willing to go along, up to a point... but if push came to shove, he/she, was going to look out for him/herself. My dad, for instance, would have either shared the same lawyer, or not got 1 at all. MOO

I do have to say that it isn't unusual for members of the same family who may be suspects in a crime to have separate lawyers. A defense team will usually suggest it. Defense lawyers are not obligated to actually ASK a client if they are guilty, though some obviously do. If they KNOW their client is guilty (or think they are), they can plan a defense based on either outright lies (illegal but still done) or try to defect blame on an innocent person without actually making an accusation. Casey Anthony's lawyers did this very thing when they made the "allegations" that her father abused her and may have also abused Caylee. They can also try to cloud the issue the way OJ's lawyers did. They knew he did it. EVERYONE knew that, even the jury. But they clouded the issue with the gloves, and basically you had a jury who was never going to convict him anyway.
In this case, the separate lawyers would be a necessity if there was any possibility that one R may have testified against another in return for immunity from prosecution.
One of the MOST suspicious thing to me was that JR got a lawyer for his ex-wife, who was not in Boulder and was not a suspect. This was done for one reason, IMO. To keep LE from asking her questions about whether her son JAR was with her Christmas Day in Georgia and being asked to provide photographic proof (Christmas photos or videos). It also would prevent LE from asking about JR's relationships with his two older daughters. There is simply no INNOCENT reason why she needed her own lawyer.
 

Squishified

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It's not YOU who needs to realize that, Squishified.

(And I was not calling you "skippy." That's just an expression my dad used.)

I just meant I was waiting for the day that you would use that expression with me. You've used it with just about every other member of the JBR forum and I thought it would never be my turn. I'm flattered--I feel like one of the gang now! :blushing:
 

Sabot

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I just meant I was waiting for the day that you would use that expression with me. You've used it with just about every other member of the JBR forum and I thought it would never be my turn. I'm flattered--I feel like one of the gang now! :blushing:

What about me? I wallaby,.........sorry,....... wannabe Skippy too.
 

UKGuy

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What about me? I wallaby,.........sorry,....... wannabe Skippy too.

And Kemo Sabe and trigger, how about thing from the Adam's Family, or does that date me?


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