Three critical questions

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by KoldKase, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    As per requests to bring this discussion here, which I had started first at FFJ:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Last night while reading and posting at WS I either had an epiphany or another brain fart.

    It occurs to me that there are three things we need to know to decide if Patsy and/or John put that ligature on JB's neck and pulled it.

    If one or both did, then it's murder one and no statute of limitations.

    If John was involved, then it's still a prosecutable case. It would be time to let a jury decide.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    In his book, Kolar lays out the "organized" vs "disorganized" elements of this crime scene. It got me to thinking about that. I believe it's very likely the head blow was from a disorganized, blitz attack, and the strangulation, staging, and ransom note were organized.

    So I'm looking at this from that perspective: who did what, and when.

    WHEN is critical. I"m not speaking of the actual TOD, but from the perspective of 90 minutes of sheer hell, after which the head blow was trumped by strangulation.

    JonBenet's death started that night with the head blow: according to Kolar medical examiner Meyer determined, consulting with a number of other experts brought in, that the head injury came first. Then it was approx. 90 minutes until the ligature was tightened to strangle the child to death.

    That death, according to Kolar and other sources we've seen, took place by the paint tray, outside the cellar door.

    Working from that premise, I have three critical questions. If we had the answers, I think we'd know the truth about who strangled--and therefore killed--JonBenet Ramsey.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    So the first question is this: What happened in that 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation?

    The second question is this: How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray/carpet area by the wine cellar?

    Finally, the answer to question three might tell the tale: Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?

    I'd like to see what you think of these questions, what you speculate and theorize for the answers, and see where that takes us.
    __________________
     
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  3. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    For background of the medical examiner's determination of timing between the head injury and strangulation:

    From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?; by A. James Kolar

    Page 15:

    Page 60:

    Page 64-5:

    To reiterate the 3 critical questions, in a more chronological order:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    __________________
     
  4. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    I'll give answers based on kolar 's theory which makes lots of sense:

    The head bash happened in the kitchen and everyone was awake because once tired kids lay down they would have went to sleep. There was only time for a bit of pineapple to be eaten, burke mentions the kitchen, and the flashlite was there. The kids could have been in their rooms and told to go to bed. They could have "quietly" gone down to sneak a snack.

    How jonbenet got to the basement:
    a child or adult could have pulled her under the arms from behind. I think the triangular mark could be from strangling, but kolar thinks from something else. It could be from a kid putting knuckles there and pulling jonbenet under the arms.

    The 90 minutes: the parents not being very attentive may not have responded to noise right away. Once they did it probably took awhile to assess the situation, get the story from the other child, and see if she would come around. Someone probably knew the flashlite was used in the injury because it was wiped down. Jonbenet probably was not moved again due to knowing not to move an injured person. Lots of worry about the previous assault must have gone on. Maybe even phone calls and home medical books consulted. One R. Was probably sent to a room during this and got immersed in the beep beeping of video games.

    I'm probably wrong and just going by comments and quotes from the book. Actually reading it may help me decide when or if he believes an adult got involved and just what was organized vs disorganized. There's no way that i'll believe anyone thought her dead though, especially without advanced medical advice and possible cheynes stokes.
     
  5. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    I think the blow took place in the kitchen, then someone carried JB to the wine cellar, and thinking she was either dead or waiting for her to die, he/she wrote the ransom/novelette... which is a scary thing to think about, because once he/she realized that JB wasn't dead, he/she finished the job...which in my book, is cold blooded premeditation. MOO.
     
  6. hetty

    hetty New Member

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    Dodie, I posted this on another thread, I wondered if it might shed a different light on things for you.

    .
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Active Member

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    Interesting questions.

    I've not read Kolar's book, so I do not know his views on what was staged. But the period of 90 minutes was likely the time when JonBenet was wiped down, redressed, e.g. Pink Barbie Nightgown,with local forensic evidence removed, e.g. her size-6 underwear, and placed on her bed, staged to represent an intruder assault. JonBenet's blood was found on her pillow, as per Locards Principle, she lay bleeding on that bed?

    Now the 90 minutes might not represent a staging, if not then I assume the gown found in the wine-cellar was what she was wearing in her bedroom? This as a separate scenario might have JonBenet being relocated to her bedroom from, say the ktichen?

    So the first question is this: What happened in that 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation?
    Possibly nothing with all the staging taking place down in the basement, JonBenet's assailant simply stared into space, soul searching?

    Otherwise I can think of two responses:

    1. JonBenet's assailant immediately tells the other R's that JonBenet is seriously injured.

    2. JonBenet's assailant attempts to revive JonBenet, this failing, then has to tell the other R's.

    The 90 minutes might simply be the time it took for the all the R's to realise that they could not revive JonBenet?

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?
    My money is on one of the bedrooms?

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?
    Patsy carried her there, down the spiral staircase, from an upstairs bedroom?

    What does Kolar say about the acute sexual assault?



    .
     
  8. claudicici

    claudicici New Member

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    My number one theory is still PDI but I did not read the Kolar book.
    IMO 45-90 minutes sounds exactly how long it would take to write the RN ......
    If PDI I believe the head blow happened either in JonBenet's bedroom,bathroom or the kitchen,if BDI the kitchen or the basement.
    I believe PR "quietly" carried little JonBenet to the basement with BR as a possible witness.
    IMO JR was not involved in the crime until this point.
     
  9. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    These are interesting questions, but I don't see how they are critical.

    We can make up dozens of scenarios to answer question one.

    # 2 isn't clear to me. Do you mean how did she end up near the WC as opposed to where Burke had his trains set up? Or do you mean how did she end up at the WC instead of in her bedroom?

    #3 also affords multiple possibilities, but they'd be conjecture. Since she didn't bleed from the head wound, she could have been clubbed anywhere.

    But I'll take a stab at #3. There is a barbie doll in the WC. It seems to me JB must have taken it down there with her, otherwise why is it there? (Of course it could have been left down there from an prior day when she was down there, or BR could have hid it from her just to be mean, or dozens of other explanations) So if she brought it down with her -which isn't at all certain- the blow to the head probably happened in the basement.

    I don't mean to be rude, or confrontational, but it's hard, at least for me, to characterize these as critical questions. We can speculate about all 3, endlessly. We could spend 16 years talking about these 3 questions and never be a step closer to solving the crime.
     
  10. claudicici

    claudicici New Member

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    I beleive PR brought the doll and the blanket to the basement to comfort JonBenet.
     
  11. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Chrishope, I posted this on the FFJ thread to explain my thinking. Hope this helps.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Thank you all so much for your responses. See, this helps me think, I can't tell you how much. Each of you has given me ideas, and thinking about what you're pondering, little pieces of this puzzle start moving around and some fall into place, as well.

    What prompted me to start this thread is I had an epiphany of sorts...or another stupid idea, who knows? :fingers:

    I'm looking at the three questions to answer one final, and critical one:

    Could Burke have placed JB by the paint tray, where she was strangled, and where she died?

    My epiphany is this: there is only one way Burke could have strangled JB by the paint tray, and that's if he felled her right there, in that spot.

    I say that because I don't believe Burke could have carried JB. At 45 lbs. at autopsy, Burke would have had some trouble even moving her from, say, the train room to the paint tray.

    There were no bruises or scrapes on her body, as far as I've ever seen or as described in the autopsy, which indicated she'd been dragged. So I'm thinking that Burke, at his own height and weight, wouldn't have been able to pick her up and carry her.

    I know this isn't anything hard to figure out, but stay with me.

    I'll respond to your posts and ideas separately, but in hopes of keeping this idea from getting too complex off the bat, here's the gist of my thoughts:

    The only way I can figure out Burke delivering the head blow and also strangling his sister by the paint tray is if he felled her there. Then she would have been in position for what happened at the paint tray, so he didn't need to carry her.

    This might fit the evidence. I'm thinking this through.

    One problem I have with this is the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation.

    Would Burke, not yet 10 years old, wait around the house/basement for 90 minutes while his sister was dying, and decide then to strangle her?

    Does that make sense?

    So I'm asking Question 1: where did the head blow occur? If it occurred in the basement, outside the cellar room, then Burke could have also been the person to strangle her, as far as physical capability.

    But if it happened somewhere else, like in/near her bedroom, where her blood was found on her pillow, where there is a lot of chaos, open drawers, diapers hanging out of a cabinet, a kitchen knife on a laundry machine, then I think we can all agree Burke did not carry JB down two flights of stairs and strangle her 90 minutes later.

    That would put Patsy and/or John in the act of strangulation, as the only other two people in the home and with their fibers on the body and murder weapon.

    If the head blow happened in the kitchen or another area, same thing. Burke could not carry his sister, I don't believe. So back to Patsy and/or John being the actual killers.

    So question 2: what happened in that 90 minutes? I'm trying to picture Burke hanging out, maybe panicking, maybe not, somewhere in the house, his sister dying by the paint tray where he struck her, then an hour and a half later deciding to go strangle her with a ligature.

    It was very late for children. They'd been up since before dawn, as well, excitedly opening their presents, playing with their Santa toys, running around with friends in the hood and such, visiting at the Whites, more children, more toys...then they came home and, according to Patsy and John Burke wasn't put to bed until 10 pm.

    But the pineapple is that big bugaboo, isn't it? It puts the lie to JB being asleep as she was put to bed, Patsy changing out her jeans for longjohns, etc.

    So there's only two ways this could have happened, if there is any truth to what John and Patsy said:

    1. JB woke up and Burke got back up, after the parents went to bed.

    OR Patsy and John lied and...

    2. JB was awake or woke up when they got back home and whatever happened, it went down before anyone went to bed.

    If either of the above scenarios happened, and if Burke were the one who struck that blow, unless it happened in the basement, by the paint tray, and Burke roamed around or did whatever until 90 minutes later, when he strangled JB to death there, there is only one other conclusion I can reach:

    John and/or Patsy carried JB to the paint tray and strangled her there.

    So this leads to Question 3: How did JB get to the paint tray?

    This is important because as I'm looking at this, with the timing between the head blow and strangulation established by Dr. Meyer as 90 minutes, and because I am speculating that a child the size of Burke could not carry the dead weight of a limp, 45 lb. body and there were no drag marks on the body, we might reasonably conclude the head blow occurred by the paint tray if Burke was responsible for that and then he would have been in a position to complete the act of strangulation...or...

    Patsy and/or John are culpable for the strangulation. Any other scenario except Burke committing the head blow and strangulation by the paint tray implicates John and/or Patsy, whose fibers are all over the body and crime scene, with Patsy's actually tied INTO the ligature, as well.

    I'm struggling with how to express my thoughts on this, so I hope this makes sense. If it does, we're down to one scenario where Burke could have committed both violent attacks on his sister. If it doesn't, then look into this smilie :hypno: and repeat 100 times: I never read it...I never read it....

    Thoughts?
     
  12. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    One thought I had from reading the comments about the Maglite and batteries: it's always bothered me, as it seems so anal retentive to "wipe" batteries. It's theirs, it's in their house, and JAR gave it to JR as a gift.

    Of course, Patsy clearly "distanced" the family from it when she said it didn't look like theirs. I believe Kolar said it had been dusted for fingerprints and so looked rougher than it had before, so that might explain that.

    But someone (sorry, can't remember who or if that was here or at FFJ, so please raise your hand) was addressing the batteries being wiped and possibly being dead so they were changed and wiped then...or something. [Edited to add: it was Robotdog here, on the Kolar thread, who posted about the batteries being changed.]

    That got me to thinking, what if they were new batteries and had been put into the flashlight when the person was wearing gloves that night or even another time, perhaps when someone was going outside in the cold at night?

    That might account for no fingerprints.

    As for Burke dragging JB to the paint tray, I have a couple of questions: would there have been bruises under her arms if she was dragged; why would he do that, and not just bring the paintbrush to where she fell?

    I don't know the answers of course. Just trying to think it through.
     
  13. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    And that's exactly what I'm getting at: if Burke couldn't carry her to the paint tray, then for him to strangle her there, the strike to her head must have occurred there.

    If it didn't, then either of the adults had to carry her there, which I agree, is murder one. Or at the very least, felony murder.

    To make that charge, then, the location of where she was bludgeoned would be critical.
     
  14. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    This all makes a lot of sense with the evidence we know about.

    I, too, want to know about that blood on the pillow. I can only see two possiblities: either it was from the head injury, where the bloody mucous leaked onto the pillow after she was struck; or it was from injuries to her during a sexual assault on the bed, which may have taken place that night or before that night.

    In the '98 DA interviews, Haney drilled Patsy pretty hard about when the bedsheets had last been changed. As far as I could see, that window was narrowed down to 3 to five days before her death.

    Haney also asked Patsy if JB had nosebleeds. That leads me to believe possibly the blood on the pillow might have been identified as being from her nose. Patsy said she sometimes picked her nose and it might bleed, but the medical examiner didn't identify any scabs or abrasions to her nasal passages that I remember.

    As I remember, Kolar only stated that it is believed the paintbrush caused the acute vaginal injuries, with the cellulose matter found in the vagina being consistent with that.

    Your thoughts on the 90 minutes also make sense. That could also be the time during which phone calls were made. Since Hunter blocked the BPD from ever getting those records with a subpoena, we may never know. (Not if I live to be 1000 will I ever understand how Hunter got away with that....)
     
  15. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    You're not being rude. I don't have any expectations that you agree with my observations. I want other ideas and points of view, which is why I posted this. Everything I know about this case I learned from others.

    However, what I'm most interested in is following the evidence, not speculation. Of course we have to speculate, without a video of the events, to fill in the who, what, where, how, and why, but hopefully if we use the evidence that speculation won't be too far off the mark.

    And JB did bleed from her head wound, but through her nose, not from the scalp. There was a drop of blood on her upper sleeve, as well as blood on her pillowcase. (See my last post about that.)

    I do appreciate your thoughts. The doll is an issue Kolar doesn't address. I really want to ask him about that, if we get to speak with him again or ask him more questions. :please:

    Oh, and I have spent 16 years asking these questions. Pathetic, I know, as I don't believe "we" are going to solve this case. Only Boulder LE can do that, and they're not interested, IMO.
     
  16. ciela

    ciela New Member

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    I cannot ever believe this. For me it does not fit any profile I can construct regarding the Ramseys. Mercy killing for a child with a trauma? Can't imagine it. Gimme evidence that the Ramsey's were in fact psychopaths, not just conjectures plz.

    Just my humble opinion.
     
  17. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    I’m still having a hard time accepting the premise of the 45-to-90-minutes that has only recently been thrown in the mix. If true, it changes almost everything else. It also flies in the face of every other expert’s opinion about how long it was between the two things that each contributed to JonBenet’s death and which, by themselves, could have either one caused her death. I can’t help but think that there must be some other factor that this doctor didn’t know or forgot to take into consideration when she was trying to estimate the length of time. And of course, she didn't actually see what Dr. Meyer described. She could read his report and, I imagine, she might even have been able to ask him questions about what he saw. But that's not quite the same as actually seeing some of the things she would be looking at to estimate that length of time.

    That being the case, at least until I’m convinced otherwise, I haven’t changed my ideas about what happened, or who did what. I think I already disagree with Kolar on a few things (if I understand correctly what he suggests). I do not believe the flashlight (torch) was used to strike JonBenet on the head. There is no way it caused that head wound. I also do not believe, as he apparently does, that she was hit over the head on one floor, and then dragged or carried to the basement. What evidence is there of that?

    So for the time being (at least until I have a chance to read Kolar’s book myself), my answers to the three questions would be as follows:

    The head blow, the strangulation, the molestation, the cleaning/changing/staging, and even the 911-call -- everything (except Patsy’s writing the ransom novel) happened in the basement.
    Don’t yet accept the premise.
    (See answer to 1) above.)
    .
     
  18. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    I think a limp child could be pulled from behind if held up under the arms and slid over tile or wood without marks. The stairs down to the basement would be hard to manage. A child might try to hide something they had done in a spot where other things had been stored or hidden. A neighbor mentioned seeing the butler kitchen light on so i wonder if that somehow fits in.
    Also: could it be possible that the blood on the pillow, blanket, and gown were staged to try and show that an intruder was in that bedroom. Even the garland could have been placed in the hair. No fingerprints but all these spots and pathway taken by the intruder just seems off.
     
  19. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Let me make clear that Kolar never says where he thinks the head injury happened or who did what. These are my thoughts and questions, not his.

    As to the timing between the head injury and the strangulation, it's been debated for 15 years. I've many times seen doctors and nurses speculate as much as two hours could have passed, while others like Dr. Wecht seem to think it was mere seconds. I posted what I did because it's a new quote I hadn't seen. I must say I feel Kolar had access to 60,000 pages of a decade worth of evidence collection and analysis, so what he wrote as to the timing carries some weight with me. At least until something more credible comes along.

    So my question about the time would depend on whether or not that's accurate.

    I certainly have no medical expertise on the subject, so I'm just going by that.

    But I'm thinking about your alternative. If the head blow and strangulation came closer together, then it had to be either a frenzied attack with both weapons together, or some period of time less than 90 minutes?

    Maybe you could describe what you think took place in the time frame you're considering more likely?
     
  20. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    I think the 90 minutes were spent in panic and prayer by one or both parents who tried to attend to JonBenet and assess the problem.

    I think one of the adults carried her to the basement.

    I think the head trauma occurred in JonBenet's bedroom or bathroom.

    I haven't yet read Kolar's book but have it on order.
     
  21. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    I believe Kolar tipped his hand in the radio interview with Peter Boyles and Carol McKinley about where he believes she received the head wound.

    Sorry, KK, I thought you were aware of what I thought happened. I pretty much laid it out in the thread I started long ago about the knots. At the time, I pretty much got pilloried for suggesting that a frail, weakly, innocent little child could have anything to do with something as evil as this.

    I'll try not to take up too much space here going into detail, but basically I have speculated that BR coaxed JonBenet to the basement (as far away as possible from their parents' bedroom) to continue experimenting with his "newly found interest". He probably led her (as it's been noted by PR that he did at other times in a playful way) with a "leash" (a cord tied loosly around her neck). Then when she was where he wanted her stay, he would have tied the loose end of the cord/leash to something overhead, or simply ran it over something and then tied the other end to her hands. Next, a painful use of a paintbrush makes her scream, an object (golf club, bat, fireplace poker, etc.) strikes her over the head in a moment of panic, and she falls unconscious, pulling on the cord and causing it to tighten around her neck. Of course, all of the cleanup and staging would have to be done by the desperate parents when they find out what happened. Does Kolar mention anything about what was taken into evidence from the basement bathroom, or if any testing was done for blood residue there, fingerprints (or lack of)?
    .
     

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