TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #2

[bessie]

Thanks for the link. Either way, Kathy's mother had either separated or was no longer married at the time of Kathy's death. I guess maybe the father's whereabouts were checked out by LE. I'm curious if he had any friends or work acquaintances that had criminal records, before or after Kathy's death. Maybe a friend or work acquaintance of his had been to the house, while the father was still involved with the family and the friend became "interested" in Kathy. I try to look at every angle that's possible.

I agree that would be a good angle to consider. It hasn't been given much discussion simply because we have little to no information to follow in that direction.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

.

Thanks for the pictures Elroy .... it appears the skates were still tied together by the laces which means she was not wearing them , and had not made it to the rink . This is pretty much what police said too , nobody remembers seeing her at the rink , so it must have happened at Krispy Kreme or on her way there.

In post 110 I see only one boot, and not two tied together. In 111 i now see them together setting next to bags filled with her clothing. Are we sure the detectives didn't tie them together to keep them together?

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733
Scattered on the grass are her purse and a deck of her playing cards. Beside her thigh, on its wheels, ready to be picked up and put on, is a clean, white, leather roller skate.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

In post #1 and post #2, I brought over from the first thread a list of facts gathered from various media articles. I believe all items of clothing were accounted for with the exception of Kathy's shoes, even her gloves.

Some details came from police files years later, but quite a few were recorded by a reporter at the scene before KJ's body was removed. You can read the Banner article in Ellroy's post #104 . That's the same one I purchased a couple of years ago, and is the source of many of the facts I listed. There's even a photo here. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9dpNu3jLO3tel9ab3o4WHlBYzQ&usp=sharing (Other links are in the first two posts.)

I've always felt Kathy was grabbed from a spot close to where she was found, either walking down the sidewalk, or in the parking lot of the KK. But you could be right, Mr TT. I wouldn't rule out the skating rink. The only thing I'd question is whether she would still have had her jacket on after she put on her skates.

I remember when i went staking with others during the winter. We would enter but not remove our coats for awhile because it was cold inside. WE JUST come in from outside and entered and it was cold...The place may have been heated, but probably not well. We I would wear our jackets coats for awhile until we got warm either from setting and getting used to the temperature inside or after we staked awhile then took them off.

I think tunnel vision played a big part in this investigation. Most in LE at the time believed she was taking around the donut shop, on her way there before staking. She may have decided not to eat there, and was going straight over to the ring. And was just passing it depending on the route she took.

Have you notice Bessie, or maybe its just me. But it seems the fact her street shoes were not found with her like everything else was, just seems not to be very relevant then or now. The photos i listed and seen pertaining to those boots being found to me show they were not tied together when found.

The leos were and perhaps still are accepting she was abducted where she was found. On her way to stake. Because her mother told them she gave her money for the dognut shop. And since she was found near by the dognut shop, they assumed/believe that is where she was taken from.

I dont think, and I am only guessing they never really investigated the rink as they should have. She was not there long, long enough to remove her street shoes and put her boots on before being taken, Thats why no remembered seeing her there. Having boots on would have made it impossible to run away. And she /killer left her street shoes behind at the rink. The next day or later that night after closing, when it was time to clean the place, they probably were found and thrown away.

Its been a long long time. LEOS if your reading this thread. Release the photos taken back then of everything. You dont have to show us her body laying in the field uncovered. But let us see what you had ata that time so we can get a better understanding of what may have happened.

Addon...Bessie i am not going to go back and look, but wasnt she found with her pants off? I know she was found with only one sock on. How would the killer/or her for that matter have removed her pants and sock from her foot? killer/she would have to do one thing first. Remove the boots from her feet! Which they were found there at the scene. But not her street shoes were there.

Now if a dective from the time, or reporter what ever comes to this thread, and post a picture to prove it once and for all, that they know for a fact because they were there, or have the picture to prove it 100 percent that those shoes were found next to the body and they were in fact tie together then you can delete everything i have posted.

But if that day should ever come. I will say that Kathy didn't tie those shoes back together, but the killer did/or made Kathy do it. To make it appear she was killed on her way to the ring but never made it. To through off the investigation. But that would be giving the killer alot of credit for THINKING of tieing the shoes together to make it appear she never made it to the ring but was taken before she got there.....Then i could add to this the killer knew she was giving money, and was going to stop at the doughnut shop. So after killing her, he left her at the doughnut shop, close by it, and left the retied skates there also to make it appear she was abducted on her way to the skating ring after stopping by the dog nut shop that her mother reported. Then like I said that would make this killer very smart to think about that.

I dont believe she was killed by a 100 percent total stranger. But someone in the neighborhood. Where you know people, but you dont interact with them, but you know about them, someone like that. And I still dont think the sexual assault and everything that happened to her occurred right there where she was found. But all of this was done in and around the area in which she was found. She was found not far from home, not far from the rink, and right by the doughnut shop. All of this occurred right there in that area. Alot of focus has been put on older persons whom may have been responsible. But I am wondering someone/persons younger then the suspects they had. They may have not even had access to a vehicle on this night, which would explain why she was found in the area she was heading to.

 

[rosesforann]

I have just finished reading the entire first thread and now this one. This is so sick and horrible, and I wish there was something I could do to be helpful.

I am curious if Nashville police ever gave more info to December beyond the confirmation of an autopsy (or perhaps she was asked not to post it here).

I sure would love to have a good long look at the police files on this case!

Most of all I pray for justice to be served, and closure for the remaining members of Kathy's family.

 

[December]

Hi. A lot has been going on with me.

There are two boxes of evidence on Kathy... Files and personal effects. The files are right there, but personal effects are in a different box.

I don't KNOW her shoes were not found.

This case was a huge deal. People were looking for her and the whole neighborhood knew it. It is very unlikely her shoes, even if they were at the rink, would be thrown away by accident.

Senior detectives were assigned the case immediately and worked it for years. The people who saw the crime scene did not think she had been where she was found the entire time.

The detective I talked to said it is POSSIBLE it all happened there, but this is not from looking at the crime scene personally. I am not saying he's wrong, but just making note of that.

Kathy's clothing was found around her, not on her. If she had been lying there the whole time and if her shoes are missing, then there is the possibility a neighborhood dog carried them off. I don't really think that, but there have been cases where that happened.

 

[December]

I don't mean to sound terse.. I thank people for looking at the case.

I just despair we don't really know. It freaks me out since the police really have tried very hard to solve this. Multiple detectives over many years have worked very hard on this case.

They have to go on files now because a lot of the people who they normally would go back and talk to have died. I don't mean as suspects, though one of those have died, but just people who knew Kathy.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Thanks December.
I think of you often

Are you in contact with your local detectives who have worked on this case ?

Here is why I ask. Remember I kept bringing up Mike Debardeleben ... back a couple years ago I got really deep into everything I could find about Debardeleben

I posted some of it here , and then stopped because I did not want to derail the thread or shift the focus to the wrong suspects unless I was more certain

Up to that time I had not come across any information indicating Debardeleben had even been in the Nashville area , let alone whether he was committing such serious crimes around when Kathy died

Anyway , I did keep digging for a long time after that and (to my surprise) Debardeleben was doing those things back then and he was passing through Nashville from time to time .... he would visit family West of Nashville (TX AZ) during the times he lived in the east coast states .

Nashville has changed a lot since then , so I researched the original interstate main Highway passing East and West I-40 and here is what happened

From where Debardeleben's parents lived (west of Nashville) I tested Google maps by requesting Thompson Lane and it went exactly down Nolansville Pike (where Kathy walked) right past the intersection of Lutie street (where Kathy lived) right to the Krispy Kreme (where Kathy was found)

Got a few goosebumps

Then I tried it from the other direction , all the various East Coast states where Debardeleben lived .... told google map to go to his parents place with a stop on Thompson Lane and it did exactly the same .... down Nolansville Pike (where Kathy walked) right past the intersection of Lutie street (where Kathy lived) right to the Krispy Kreme (where Kathy was found)

Could be coincidence .... but remember I was trying to eliminate Debardeleben from possibly having anything to do with Kathy. The opposite happened

And most important of all .... it was the (rare) (and unusual) injuries to Kathy .... bruising around the buttocks as though punched there repeatedly , and the narrow ice-pick piercing in her breast area .... those are 100% Debardeleben from his other cases. Plus he was sometimes impotent during his sexual crimes . That is why the furious beating on the buttocks

Plus he got his victims into his car and dropped them off afterward with the clothing , and he saved souvenirs (shoes ?)

There is a lot more but I would have to dig it up again . If you have a detective , print this out and give it to him . Tell him The Secret Service has all his notes and diaries and maybe they could check what he was doing around Kathys time . I tried my best to eliminate Debardeleben and drop the whole thing but was unable

best wishes.

Oh yeah , one more thing , some of his victims were pre-pubescent like Kathy

 

[December]

Thank you, ArnieM. I will let the detectives know. As far as I know, they have been looking at suspects from the area all along. I guess because some pretty creepy people were in the immediate vicinity.

But, another reason is up until 100 Oaks Mall (brand new at that time), there were mostly just local people around. Although Nolensville Road was always fairly busy.

The old South precinct station (it closed in the late 80s, I think) was just a little ways down Nolensville Road from the intersection with Thompson Lane.

 

[nerosleuth]

Here are my thoughts regarding the skating rink.

How far from the roadway was the skating rink located?

Was there a long driveway that went from the roadway to the parking lot of the skating rink?

Were there any light poles along the driveway or around the parking lot of the skating rink?

I'm just trying to get a general idea of how well the area around the skating rink property was lighted at night as I'm wondering if Kathy had to walk along a dark area anywhere along the skating rink property.

 

[December]

The building is basically still there. There is a large parking lot, but not a long driveway. There are light poles. It not a skating rink since years. It is a costume rental shop now and before that was used kind of as a warehouse.

Where she would have less light and a longer approach would be the Krispy Kreme.

This being said, people would be coming and going from KK more frequently than from the rink. Also, the front had a lot of glass so people inside could see out. I don't know how busy the parking lot at the rink was, but logically people would spend more time inside. And far less view from inside to outsidem

 

[December]

This is what used to be the AWRD now:http://performancestudiosinc.com

Obviously, this is an entirely different company and not the first to occupy that building since the skating rink closed. But, their site will show you the building and surrounding area. Thompson Lane has been widened since then, but I think they took more from the other side of the road.

There is a large business beside it now, that is not only new, but the stuff there years ago was farther from the building we're concerned with now. So, disregard it and imagine that area being less busy and not having such a well lit thing on it.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Hi December

Just to add to my previous post , I looked on my old computer from 2 years ago and had over 50 different sites bookmarked , plus some various notes I kept here and there while pursuing the Debardeleben angle..

My point is I kept digging and digging , and like I said , mostly to eliminate him as a potential suspect.

I was actually hoping to find out it was impossible for him to be around Nashville at the time of Kathys murder. He should have no reason to be there. He lived mostly in the upper East states. And he had not yet started his money counterfeiting scheme which took him all over the place.

And like I said , it turned out his parents were living in the Texas-Arizona area and he did travel there a couple of times , and by then he was already involved in brutal sexual crimes. He was in school/college a bit on the East coast and then back west to his parents from time to time

One of the ways I was able to come up with new information was by searching all his different names , and tried misspelling his last name , and that helped

For example

Mike DeBardeleben
James DeBardeleben
Mitchell DeBardeleben
James Mitchell "Mike" DeBardeleben
Plus various spellings of his last name

I spent the last 2 years dealing with cancer and chemo and set everything aside (treatments were successful)

Your local detective is busy and has likely done as much as he can , and I dont want to send him down a rabbit hole. Secret Service have tons of information on DeBardeleben and we cannot expect them to spend months going through it based on my hunches. I understand that completely.

Tell your detective I said that . And tell him there is a fast and easy way for him to understand my point

Tell him to compare what was done to Kathy with what Mike DeBardeleben did to some of his known victims and he will see the similarities

Keeping in mind that what was done to Kathy is unique , rare , and likely never been a similar case in Nashville before or after. But DeBardeleben has a scattering of victims with the same MO . The comparisons are eerily similar.

Sorry for the long ramble again. I will summarize everything in one sentence below ....

Tell your detective to compare the Modus operandi of Mike DeBardeleben with what was done to Kathy and he can decide. It would only take him an hour or two.

.

 

[December]

ArnieM, I am sorry to hear you had health problems, but I am so happy to hear you recovered.

I appreciate the work you have done. I feel the detective will have heard of this vile man, but just not be aware he ever was anywhere near Nashville. But, I will tell him like you said.

And you're right, this is a one of a kind crime unlike any seen in Nashville before or since. There were other tragic killings of young girls, but none carried out like this one.

Also, the fact he would get her victims into his car, then throw them and their clothing out at a dump site matches the original detectives' impression. There are places near to there (then) where you could park a car for a while and not be noticed. Even an out of towner could easily find them as they were obvious. Then, after he left her, it would match people's impression it all happened right there.

Years ago, I went to that Krispy Kreme (just as a customer), the old one which is not the one there now. Of course, I was in a car, but there really is no reason any customer would go around back of it. Kathy didn't live in that direction, so I have never been able to imagine her going back there of her own accord, particularly at night.

 

[December]

I see there is a no shoes tag on this thread. Unless someone has facts I do not, this is only a theory some people have. I don't know about the shoes for sure, but I have never been told they were missing.

 

[mom2six]

I found Kathy's thread through the new posts link a few days ago. I finished reading through both threads, and December, I want to say that I am so sorry for your family's loss and that you are such an admirable champion for justice for Kathy. She was gone before my life ever began and yet she has touched me.

I wonder if you might consider filing FOIA requests for documents in Kathy's case. While previous detectives worked tirelessly on her case, it seems like the current detective is not extremely familiar with it and may not even have the necessary time to devote to it. It might be time to retrieve what they will allow you to have, even if items are redacted. Time is ticking on the ability to find a resolution.

 

[December]

Mom2six, he just got it when I talked to him. He was reading it. It has been worked extensively since the original detectives retired. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I know this is true, it's not just the police telling me.

Some major things have been happening and I have kind of dropped the ball on this. I feel really guilty about that.

Thank you for reading about Kathy and thinking of her.

 

[mom2six]

I look forward to any updates you can share. As a mom, I can't imagine the pain her mother and the rest of the family went through.

 

[LR1]

snipped

Some major things have been happening and I have kind of dropped the ball on this. I feel really guilty about that.

You shouldn't feel guilty about anything as far as this case goes December. Life does get in the way at times. I think this is my first time posting in this thread but I have kept up with it all along. The thread has attracted many a sleuth and I feel that is partly because your devotion to Kathy is so evident. So keep your chin up D. Thank you also for your contribution to other threads these last several years.

 

[December]

LR1, thank you. I appreciate that.

Mom2six, it is not easy for anyone to talk about Kathy to this day. Of course, there aren't that many left who knew her. I didn't know her.

 

[Backwoods]

Harking back a bit to Arnie M 's post about DeBardeleben: Just a reminder that there is a thread on him in the serial killers forum here at WS. Might have some helpful timelines, etc., linked there:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...itchell-quot-Mike-quot&highlight=debardeleben