TN - Shooting at private Christian Covenant School, Nashville, suspect dead, multiple victims, 27 Mar 2023 #2

[SteveP]

Do you think spree killers read others' manifestos and research on manifestos before killing?

It's a bit too late to suppress all the many, many ideological webstes/forums that explore this kind of thing (most without the integrity of rules that WS has).

IMO. I have no data that shows that spree killers read each others ideological positions. Would love to see some.


Welp, I guess most of us who try to study this stuff professionally should just give up.

I guess social media (including WS) is by far enough to solve all problems in society.

Let's just suppress information as far as possible and hope for the best. Right? I do get it. As it is, there are "databases" that the public doesn't usually access - but making a database just for some occupations (outside LE) is an odd idea to me. Oh well. If this is what people believe will work, that's what will happen.

If something is available to psychiatrists, psychologists, LE, anthropologists, criminologists, sociologists, nurses, general practitioners (all of whom need the info), should we spend resources on making other information seekers be banned (all forensic sciences? which expand daily?) Are we researchers supposed to get special clearance? LE itself is vast. How is this supposed to be contained? No freedom of the press?

Journalists are to be excluded?

Almost no one reads these "manifestos" anyway - so I don't understand the concern. How many of you actually read the Unabomber stuff? Anyone able to list more manifestos than just the Unabomber?

IMO.

BBM...Respectfully, no one knows how many people read killers' "manifestos", or who they are, so to say that almost no one does is strictly your personal opinion. I, nor anyone I know, have ever been asked if we have ever read any killer's manifesto. My personal opinion is that the majority of people who do read them fall into one of three categories; first, academics and mental health professionals who hope to learn from the killer, in hopes of preventing future mass killings. Another category is mentally unstable people who latch onto these killers, idolizing them and seeking out everything they can find about them, in hopes of emulating them, or even one-upping them, having their names etched alongside their idol into the evil underbelly of this society, and thus becoming someone else's idol. A previous poster has cited several examples of exactly that. The third category of readers is most likely the same type of curious people that rubberneck when driving by serious traffic accidents, uninvolved and unaffected, but just not wanting to feel that they missed something.

I respect that others may have a differing opinion, but I don't believe that the manifestos should be released publicly, for the benefit of the first and third group, at the cost of possibly encouraging and further emboldening members of the second group. The first group may have, or could be given, other avenues available to them to learn of the writings, and the third group has no overwhelming need to know. JMO and MOO.

 

[formerlyme]

That's a lot. Times seven, for someone who may or may not have been earning full wages.

I think you might be surprised how inexpensive they can be, a shop here in phoenix was selling a similar to the one she used AR for 300 in 2022

 

[JennieM]

This article about the former pastor who, inappropriately imo, shared that she was receiving counseling from Pastor Scruggs (Covenant PCA’s pastor) has a theory in it.

It seems to suggest that his other children went to other schools (and if they’re older than sixth grade, they must) and posits that those might be the other targeted schools.

I hope that’s not true and it was random simply because that is somehow less sick than killing someone’s children because of a problem with him, imo.

But if it is true, imo it could mean something for other Christian pastors who offer help to those outside of their congregations

Nashville shooter did NOT have sessions with school's head pastor

Ex-pastor at the school Jim Bachmann has now walked back his claim that shooter Audrey Hale was receiving private sessions from the current pastor of the school - Chad Scruggs.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That's terrifying to contemplate. Just wanted to add that where I live, a pastor can often be seen with his children either at the church or in the surrounding area (taking the children to the park, walking around).

If the intention was to target those poor children, MOO is that there would be easier ways to achieve that than targeting different schools.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

That's terrifying to contemplate. Just wanted to add that where I live, a pastor can often be seen with his children either at the church or in the surrounding area (taking the children to the park, walking around).

If the intention was to target those poor children, MOO is that there would be easier ways to achieve that than targeting different schools.

There were at least twelve children on the playground with their teacher. That would have been an easier target and a chance to flee. There was a reason she wanted to enter the church and school. imo

Nashville community reels after Covenant School shooting: "School is supposed to be a safe haven"

Authorities identified the victims as 9-year-olds Evelyn Dieckhaus, Hallie Scruggs and William Kinney, as well as 61-year-old Cynthia Peak, 60-year-old Katherine Koonce and 61-year-old Mike Hill.

www.cbsnews.com

According to surveillance footage, the shooter arrived at The Covenant School's parking lot in a Honda Fit. Children playing on a nearby playground were visible in the background. Almost 20 minutes later, the shooter fired shots through glass doors on the side of the building to gain entry

Video shows kids flee through woods during Nashville shooting

Security video from a home near The Covenant School in Nashville shows children and teachers fleeing through nearby woods during the deadly attack.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Cedars]

If the intention was to target those poor children, MOO is that there would be easier ways to achieve that than targeting different schools.

I agree. I also feel that, however tragic, a headline like 'disturbed client kills pastor and family' wouldn't generate this kind of national/ international coverage.

I really don't believe this murderer just happened to attack a school, completely unaware that other school shootings had recently happened.

Particularly, the recent shootings are at primary schools. They get supersized attention just at the moment.

JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

“Truth is none of us know why she did that,’ Sims’ sister said of the rampage.

‘Nothing about what she [Hale] has done is Ok, we’ve not had any contact with that girl for years due to other things.

‘We all played middle school basketball together. That’s it and that is all. Granted everyone was welcomed to my sister’s funeral and that’s when we saw her for the first time in a while.

‘She then popped up uninvited to my sister’s painting that my mom held a few weeks ago (odd) and still don’t know how she found out.

‘So with all due respect don’t attach my family, especially my sister, to this mess.’

Woman condemns claims twin's death drove trans Nashville shooter

A grieving twin has lashed out at 'disgusting' suggestions that her sibling's tragic car crash death last year somehow triggered The Covenant School massacre.

www.dailymail.co.uk

BBM, from other articles I thought Audrey was in a relationship with the car accident victim. But the car accident’s twin sister’s statement does not make it seem that way at all. More like there hadn’t been recent contact between Audrey and the deceased.

The more we find out about Audrey the more troubled she seems.

I really feel bad for this family. Not only dealing with the loss of sister/daughter, but then getting tangled up in this horrific mess for no good reason.

 

[housewife]

The whole point of psychology is to make sense of irrational thought with the goal of guiding it to be more rational.

THANK YOU!!
Well said. Can I please use your quote in each of my post signatures?
Clearly, investigating a criminal's mindset and background is not the same as "looking for people to blame"/"looking to excuse the criminal's actions".

 

[Cedars]

Just to note, - not that it should influence American policy - but police in Canada are not automatically releasing manifestos by killers:

"Police say they decided not to release the videos themselves after consulting with a forensic psychologist and leading expert in threat assessment.

Officials "believed that McLeod and Schmegelsky may have made the video recordings for notoriety and releasing them will be seen as an injustice to the victims and their families,"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/schmegelsky-mcleod-homicides-manhunt-rcmp-1.5299115

JMO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I keep thinking about the line in the text Hale sent just before going into the school. The line about "something bad is going to happen."

It's obviously tempting to think Hale was referring to what they themselves were about to do inside the school building, and that may well be, but I'm not confident about it.

I think they could also be referring to something else -- either something expected to happen in Hale's life specifically, or something more broad, such as something political in the country or in TN.

This is where I think the manifesto or other writings might give a clue. I mean, Hale was obviously not mentally well enough to recognize that killing innocent people was not the way to address their/Hale's grievances, and it also seems likely that the school and other places on their list might be places where they had, for example, experienced bullying or shaming or mistreatment in years past, but I think it's possible that there is also a bigger-issue component to it. Maybe something that answers the "but why NOW?" part of our question.

MOO

 

[PrairieWind]

Just to note, - not that it should influence American policy - but police in Canada are not automatically releasing manifestos by killers:

"Police say they decided not to release the videos themselves after consulting with a forensic psychologist and leading expert in threat assessment.

Officials "believed that McLeod and Schmegelsky may have made the video recordings for notoriety and releasing them will be seen as an injustice to the victims and their families,"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/schmegelsky-mcleod-homicides-manhunt-rcmp-1.5299115

JMO

This shows the differences between the US and Canadian systems etc. In the US, the 1st Amendment and transparency/sunshine/freedom of information laws mandate a lot more disclosure than in Canada. For better or worse.

 

[YepperBepper]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/29/us/covenant-school-shooting-nashville-tennessee-wednesday/index.html

Drake has said police have met with Hale’s parents and school officials and have yet to uncover any specific issues or problems in the attacker’s past.

“As of right now, we don’t have any indication there was any problems at the school or at home,” Drake told CNN on Wednesday. “We can’t confirm any type of problems at this time

 

[Rolypolyoly]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/29/us/covenant-school-shooting-nashville-tennessee-wednesday/index.html

Drake has said police have met with Hale’s parents and school officials and have yet to uncover any specific issues or problems in the attacker’s past.

“As of right now, we don’t have any indication there was any problems at the school or at home,” Drake told CNN on Wednesday. “We can’t confirm any type of problems at this time

There's always the possibility that Audrey was just an a$$hole?

(I don't actually believe that, but still....)

 

[YepperBepper]

There's always the possibility that Audrey was just an a$$hole?

(I don't actually believe that, but still....)

I think if it was a biological male that did this...many would presume/assume this. I may be wrong.

But I actually agree. With rare exception, these types of killers are exactly what you reference. Imho

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

The interview with the former pastor has been linked but we are not allowing discussion of any speculation in relation to the current pastor. Such speculation is not based on any known fact and is inappropriate by Websleuths standards and absolutely NOT in accordance with Websleuths Victim Friendly rules.

 

[waldojabba]

This article about the former pastor who, inappropriately imo, shared that she was receiving counseling from Pastor Scruggs (Covenant PCA’s pastor) has a theory in it.

It seems to suggest that his other children went to other schools (and if they’re older than sixth grade, they must) and posits that those might be the other targeted schools.

I hope that’s not true and it was random simply because that is somehow less sick than killing someone’s children because of a problem with him, imo.

But if it is true, imo it could mean something for other Christian pastors who offer help to those outside of their congregations

Nashville shooter did NOT have sessions with school's head pastor

Ex-pastor at the school Jim Bachmann has now walked back his claim that shooter Audrey Hale was receiving private sessions from the current pastor of the school - Chad Scruggs.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The ex Pastor certainly seems to be "stirring up things" as the article posted states that the church says there were no counseling sessions occurring.
IMO this is kind of a reckless statement to make about the current Pastor (whose daughter has just been murdered)leading to innuendo and articles like this one, if the ex Pastor's statements are untrue.
What purpose could the ex Pastor have in going on live tv saying things that are untrue? How utterly craven/contemptible would the ex Pastor be to make such things up?
All IMO
<modsnip>

 

[neesaki]

I keep thinking about the line in the text Hale sent just before going into the school. The line about "something bad is going to happen."

It's obviously tempting to think Hale was referring to what they themselves were about to do inside the school building, and that may well be, but I'm not confident about it.

I think they could also be referring to something else -- either something expected to happen in Hale's life specifically, or something more broad, such as something political in the country or in TN.

This is where I think the manifesto or other writings might give a clue. I mean, Hale was obviously not mentally well enough to recognize that killing innocent people was not the way to address their/Hale's grievances, and it also seems likely that the school and other places on their list might be places where they had, for example, experienced bullying or shaming or mistreatment in years past, but I think it's possible that there is also a bigger-issue component to it. Maybe something that answers the "but why NOW?" part of our question.

MOO

Re bolded: Like she was proud of what she was about to do. I think she was actually boasting. She thought she was so “tough”.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Re bolded: Like she was proud of what she was about to do. I think she was actually boasting. She thought she was so “tough”.

Possibly. But part of why I speculate that wasn't what Hale was referring to, is because I'm not convinced they even thought of what they were about to do as "bad".

And the text message also (IIRC) said that things would be explained or clear/understood later. Unless this was a reference to the manifesto, I'm not sure it meant "immediately after the shooting" because here we are, very much unclear what the heck was the intended message behind such a horrible act.

MOO

 

[Breezie]

<modsnip>

Another possibility is that Hale talked with someone, at the office, about possible counseling, and asked for a tour, as a former student, and he made an assumption that AH had actually received counseling.

 

[10ofRods]

Apologies for my post. I just re-read it. I did not word it well. I just jumped off of your post and did not mean to insinuate that "you" personally, were making accusations or jumping to conclusions. Frankly, I'm guilty of it. I ALWAYS want to know why....so I'll go down the rabbit hole.

My point was generic. Several people have already been thrown in the pool as possible triggers for this event...and until we know the whole ugly truth, that will continue. The Mass Murderer is still capable of hurting people, post mortem.

(Again...apologies).

I think you said it very well, myself. I too await the manifesto. I know some don't want to read it. But I would prefer to read what the shooter said than to speculate on motive without reading it.

IMO.

 

[Emerald1328]

Talked it through with a special operative/Chicago cop today and he absolutely loved the video. Handled it absolutely brilliantly. <modsnip: no source link>

He said this was near perfection, which isn’t easy in the moment, when your adrenaline is going.

When I watched the body cam footage, towards the beginning when Officer Engelbert raised his gun in the first classroom it looked like to me like his hand was shaking. My immediate thought was, if it was shaking due to fear (whether for himself, the children and teachers, his fellow officers or all of the above - and rightly so because it would be ridiculous to expect police officers should be immune to fear in a dangerous situation), how brave he was to just keep charging forward while also keeping his cool. No hesitation. And they way the officers just knew how to move around each other, cover each other, etc all with hardly saying a word was almost like watching a dance, to use a ridiculous analogy.